Author Topic: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!  (Read 8858 times)

Offline StormTAG

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Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« on: November 08, 2011, 12:42:02 PM »
So, here is a build I put together and I'm looking for ways to improve it while sticking more or less to the theme of a Super Holy Warrior type. A couple of assertions; One, the RKV is approved despite being borderline "Double Progression" so long as I don't try to bump the same spell casting twice in one level. Also, it has been refluffed into a Heironeous prestige class. Basically the prereqs are slightly easier, I get access to Setting Sun instead of Shadow Hand and I get Lay on Hands progression instead of Armored Stealth.

Anyway, here's the current build. :)

Code: [Select]
Cleric ACF: Cloistered Cleric
Paladin ACF: Holy Warrior
Flaw:       Shaky
Flaw:       Inattentive

                            Features                           Feats                        Spells                 IL/Rdy/Gntd  Maneuvers                             
Cleric 1   // Paladin  1    Aura of Good, Turn Undead, Lore,   Law Devotion, Power Attack,  Cleric 1               0 / 0
                            Smite Evil 1/Day, Detect Evil,     Extra Turning, True Faith,                         
                            Knowledge Domain, War Domain,      Divine Might                 
                            Law Domain swapped
Cleric 2   // Paladin  2    Divine Grace, Lay on Hands                                      Cleric 2               1 / 0
Cleric 3   // Crusader 1    Furious Counterstrike,             Extra Granted Maneuver       Cleric 3               2 / 5 / 3    Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike
                            Steely Resolve 5                                                                                    Charging Minotaur, Dousing the Flames
                                                                                                                                Leading the Attack, *Iron Guard's Glare*
Cleric 4   // Paladin  3    Aura of Courage, Divine Health                                  Cleric 4               2 / 5 / 3
Cleric 5   // OrdChamp 1    Glory Domain, Continued Adv.,      Improved Bullrush,           Cleric 5               3 / 5 / 3
                            Combat Feats (Knowledge, Glory),   Improved Initiative
                            Modified Spontaneous Casting
OrdChamp 2 // Paladin  4    Turn Undead, Smite                 Leadership, Diehard          Cleric 6,              3 / 5 / 3
                                                               Divine Vigor
Cleric 6   // Templar  1    Mettle                                                          Cleric 7,  Templar 1   4 / 5 / 3
Cleric 7   // RbyKnght 1                                                                    Cleric 8,  Templar 1   5 / 5 / 3    *Thicket of Blades*
Cleric 8   // RbyKnght 2    Divine Recovery                    Shocktrooper                 Cleric 9,  Templar 2   6 / 5 / 3    White Raven Tactics
Cleric 9   // RbyKnght 3                                                                    Cleric 10, Templar 3   7 / 5 / 3
Cleric 10  // RbyKnght 4                                                                    Cleric 11, Templar 4   8 / 5 / 3    Bone Splitting Strike
Cleric 11  // RbyKnght 5    Armored Stealh                     Battle Blessing              Cleric 12, Templar 4   9 / 6 / 4    *Press the Advantage*
Cleric 12  // RbyKnght 6                                                                    Cleric 13, Templar 5   10/ 6 / 4    Flanking Maneuver
Cleric 13  // RbyKnght 7    Divine Impetus                                                  Cleric 14, Templar 6   11/ 6 / 4
Cleric 14  // RbyKnght 8                                       Extra Turning                Cleric 15, Templar 7   12/ 6 / 4    Rallying Strike
Cleric 15  // RbyKnght 9    Divine Fury                                                     Cleric 16, Templar 8   13/ 7 / 5
Cleric 16  // RbyKnght 10                                                                   Cleric 17, Templar 9   14/ 7 / 5    Swarming Assault
OrdChamp3  // Crusader 2    Channel Spell, Divine Bulwark,     Extra Turning                Cleric 18, Templar 9   15/ 7 / 5    *Immortal Fortitude*
                            Indomitable Will
Cleric 17  // Crusader 3    Zealous Surge                                                   Cleric 19, Templar 9   16/ 7 / 5    White Raven Hammer
Cleric 18  // Crusader 4    Steely Resolve 10                                               Cleric 20, Templar 9   17/ 7 / 5    Swap Charging Minotaur for Warmaster's Charge

BAB +20, 20th level Cleric casting, 10th Level Pious Templar Casting, IL 17 (9th Level Maneuvers)

Any suggestions on how to improve this build would be awesome. :D


Edit - Almost forgot a fix.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 12:45:32 PM by StormTAG »
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2011, 09:20:13 PM »
Extra turning isn't such a good idea. Get a bunch of nightsticks instead and free those feats for better use. Surprisingly, you seem to avoid going towards Divine metamagic, is there a particular reason for this? I would also consider changing Knowledge domain's granted power for Knowledge devotion. That is quite a no-brainer for Cloistered Clerics. Moreover, Shocktrooper is not that hot for a Cleric, with the buffs you can get there is very little reason to bother with the two feats. Replacing Shocktrooper and Improved bull rush with Extend spell and Persistent spell you would be awfully near to getting Divine metamagic to the game.
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Offline StormTAG

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 12:18:59 PM »
Originally the lack of Divine Metamagic was centered around the fact that one of the character's teammates was an Incantrix and got most of my buffs persisted that way. The other bit was that most GMs I've played with put the kabosh on Nightstick abuse.

I'm currently swapping the Knowledge Domain bonus for a fighter feat. In order to get the most out of Knowledge Devotion, I'd need a bunch of Knowledge skills, right? INT is one of this character's few dump stats and after Concentration, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, prereq skills (Heal, Ride) I may only have enough skill points to go for one or two knowledge skills. Is it worth it at that point or would getting a fighter feat and access to the Knowledge Domain spells make more sense?

Would it make sense, since I'm already getting extra swift actions, to go DMM Quicken or should I stick to the tried and true DMM Persist?
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 01:15:11 PM »
If you still have an Incantatrix in the party, then DMM (Persistent) is not all that necessary. Quicken is another thing entirely. If you intend to use buffs or debuffs in combat, then it is worth looking into. Do you have a plan for your swift actions already? Battle blessing is a strange pick for you as well, seeing how it affects Paladin spells...

Knowledge devotion, though, is ridiculously easy to use. Complete Champion has Lore of the gods that gives you +5 insight bonus to Knowledge checks and Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance from MIC gives you another +5. Add in a few odd ranks here and there as well as masterwork tools and you should be able to hit 25-30 with an investment of a few thousand GPs and a second level spell slot.

What is Divine vigor? If something to do with healing, I would leave that out. You can do that well enough without the investment.

By the way, what is your race? I take it you need the extra feat of humans, but consider Strongheart halfling instead. That qualifies you for Yondalla's sense (Races of the Wild) that has, regardless of its name, no prerequisite of worshipping Yondalla. With that you add your wisdom modifier to initiative in addition to your dexterity modifier. Easily better for Clerics than Improved initiative.

Finally, I still believe you can do better than Improved bull rush and Shocktrooper. Your AB should be more than enough to smite some divine understanding to your enemies even with Power attack.
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Offline StormTAG

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 01:56:33 PM »
Battle Blessing applies to Pious Templar spells since they're all from the Paladin list. At least, that's what my GM says.

Divine Vigor is a divine feat. Standard action and a Turn attempt gives you +10 feet to your base speed and +2*Character Level temporary HP. Lasts Cha Bonus minutes.

Either a human (for extra feat) or a Lesser Aasimar (for stat bonuses and resistences.) Probably the ideal optimization would be Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar. Strongheart is awesome no doubt although Improve Initiative is one of the two fighter feats I get.

I get two fighter feats in exchange for 2 domain powers as part of the Ordained Champion 1 and I'm more than willing to change them around. Originally I was considering Combat Reflexes and Standstill with a Glaive but Dex isn't high enough to warrant Combat Reflexes.

About knowledge devotion: Interesting. Here's my rules question: If I have already given up the Knowledge Domain power in order to get a fighter bonus feat, can I then swap the whole domain for the Devotion feat? If so, do I keep the fighter bonus feat?
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2011, 03:26:57 PM »
Too bad you have no levels in Prestige Paladin. Arguably that would allow you to apply Battle blessing to Cleric spells as well. Costs a feat though, which is annoying.

To be honest, I don't think Divine vigor is worth the investment. The bonus is not all that hot.

Improved initiative is definitely a good Fighter bonus feat to pick, no question there. However, by changing your feats around you could have taken Yondalla's sense at level one and then pick Power attack as a bonus feat. This naturally depends on your starting level and whatnot. Plus, it's not really relevant if you don't play a Strongheart halfling (or any halfling for that matter).

As for your question, I think you need to choose one or the other. As I have stated, I advice against Improved bull rush and Shocktrooper. Knowledge devotion is worth more.

While I still remember, have a look at a feat called Holy warrior from Complete Champion. It's a safe bet for divine damage dealers, especially since Ordained Champion gives you spontaneous War domain casting.
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Offline StormTAG

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2011, 03:37:09 PM »
Yeah. That'd be a little too much cheese for me. Being able to effectively quicken every standard action Cleric spell would be a little too much gouda for me. xD

What would you replace Divine Vigor with? List of Holy Warrior feats are in Complete Champion. Yondalla's Sense would be nifty but it doesn't really fit the character. If I use Knowledge Devotion instead of Shocktrooper + Knowledge spells, Holy Warrior instead of Shock Trooper (can't believe I forgot Holy Warrior in that progression!) Still have a bunch of Extra Turnings that you suggested against.

It would then be something like...

1) Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Power Attack, Extra Turning, True Faith, Divine Might
3) Extra Granted Maneuver
5) Improved Initiative
6) Leadership, Diehard, [Holy Warrior ACF Feat]
9) Battle Blessing
12) Holy Warrior Reserve Feat
15) Extra Turning
18) Extra Turning

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Offline Tshern

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2011, 04:23:29 PM »
Assuming you wish to keep your Extra turnings (might not be a bad idea at all if you aim to avoid nightstick stacking), how about changing Divine vigor to Extra turning? That way you would free one general feat you can use for anything, not just the Holy warrior's bonus feat list.

I agree with the Battle blessing thingee. Although it is almost too tempting seeing how Mounted combat is actually a bonus feat for Holy Warrior Paladins!
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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2011, 04:46:50 PM »
Certainly could do that. What would I put in its place? I could stick Quicken spell in there and get DMM Quicken at some point.
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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2011, 05:05:14 PM »
Certainly could do that. What would I put in its place? I could stick Quicken spell in there and get DMM Quicken at some point.
Quicken spell is not a bad option. Extend spell is probably better taken care of with rods anyway. Summon elemental has excellent utility value and seeing how your turning level is rather high, Divine spell power can be nice although Reserves of strength is strictly better...
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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2011, 05:21:39 PM »
Considering I won't be pumping Wis too hard, just enough to cast spells (make enemies take saves is the Archivist//Conjurer,MasterConjurer,Incantrix,Archmage's job) what spells would make the best use of Divine Spell power? Considering I'm pumping Cha over Wis, having a +6 Cha bonus, +2 for Knowledge(Religion), +3 Divine Spell Power means that I'm anywhere from +1 to +10 CL for a given spell. Not too shabby. All at level 6.

Hehe, at Level 7, casting a +X CL buff then having the Incantrix make it Persistent seems like a pretty potent combo.
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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2011, 06:06:57 PM »
Considering I won't be pumping Wis too hard, just enough to cast spells (make enemies take saves is the Archivist//Conjurer,MasterConjurer,Incantrix,Archmage's job) what spells would make the best use of Divine Spell power? Considering I'm pumping Cha over Wis, having a +6 Cha bonus, +2 for Knowledge(Religion), +3 Divine Spell Power means that I'm anywhere from +1 to +10 CL for a given spell. Not too shabby. All at level 6.

Hehe, at Level 7, casting a +X CL buff then having the Incantrix make it Persistent seems like a pretty potent combo.
Oh, now when I think of it, how about picking up Serenity? Won't help your turning attempts, but it would make your Paladin abilities wisdom-based. Would allow you to invest more in that.
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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2011, 12:01:30 AM »
Ooooh, neat feat. Never heard of that one.

Only issue would be whether or not it qualifies for things like the Ordained Champion Smite ability and whether or not it applies to Divine feats like Divine might. If it worked for Ordained Champions it would probably be worth it.

How would it affect Turning undead? Is it now 3+WIS per day? Does it affect turnings from both Cleric and Paladin?
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2011, 08:38:03 AM »
Quote from: Dragon Compensium, Serenity
Use your Wisdom bonus in place of your Charisma bonus for purposes of divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead.
By the looks of it, your turning attempts should become wisdom-based as well. However, the attack bonus given by Ordained Champion's Smite should still be charisma-based, but the damage is based on your effective turning level, which is nice. Bear in mind that you should have an excellent attack bonus, so even if by level 20 your charisma sits at 20 or so, it shouldn't be hard to whack your foes.
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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2011, 10:29:37 PM »
Okay, so we're looking at something more like this...

[Lesser Aasimar]
1) Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Power Attack, True Faith, Serenity
3) Extra Granted Maneuver
5) Improved Initiative
6) Leadership, Diehard, Divine Spell Power
9) Battle Blessing
12) Holy Warrior Reserve Feat
15) Extra Turning
18) Extra Turning

Stats in order...
WIS > STR > CON = CHA > INT > DEX

What spells would make the most use of Divine Spell Power? By the time I take it, I will be able to up the CL by anywhere between +1 and +10 based on rolls.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2011, 10:33:29 PM »
Conviction is a decent one. How do you get a +10 bonus from Divine spell power though?
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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2011, 11:27:59 PM »
If you roll a 20 + 3 Divine Spell Power + 2 from Knowledge Religion + 6 WIS bonus = 31, which is a +10. Anywhere between a 12 (+1) to a 31 (+10)
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Gestalt Paladin Build: Heironeous Smash!
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 11:41:23 AM »
I can't recall how it exactly works, so I take your word for it. Remember to get some of those tasty items that boost turning checks. Unless I am mistaken there are a few relatively cheap ones.
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