Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?

[DonQuixote]

So, as I searched desperately for a new name for homebrew class, I realized that there's no generic fantasy term for the concept of a gish.  The archetype is there, all right, but it has no general name.

For magic-users, we have a slew of generic words: mage, witch, wizard, sorcerer, and so on.  Some of these are class names, yes, but they make sense as things to say in-universe.  For example, a commoner can refer to a "mighty wizard" that lives in a nearby tower.  Hell, even if the character sheet doesn't say wizard, such statements make sense and are acceptable.

For melee characters, we have fewer words, but still some terms: warrior, champion, and even fighter.  Contextually, you can have combatant and other words.  There are also some specifics bouncing around: the word "knight" clearly evokes a melee-type character, but it's more accurately a representation of a profession than a training.

Gishes, however, have no generic term that I've been able to call to mind.  There are specifics--paladins, for instance--but those are often restrictive in their definition.  In a game in which paladins exist, one wouldn't think of using "paladin" to refer to a fighter who just happens to be religious.  Hell, the word "gish" itself was originally pretty specific: a Githyanki fighter/wizard.

While gish is a fine word, and a very useful one away from the table, it can't exactly be introduced in the standard game universe.  Gishes tend to be referred to as mages or warriors.  Sometimes, a hyphenated "mage-warrior" is used.

Maybe I'm a stickler, but I really think that it could be worthwhile to come up with a good, campaign-transcending word for the gish.  Anyone have any ideas?

[sirpercival]

Paragon could be a cool name for a gish.

(Formulon!  )

Swordmage
Spellblade
Thaumurai!!!!

[veekie]

Most RL terms have pretty specific cultural connotations for that, due to how closely religion was tied to magic.

[littha]

Paragon could be a cool name for a gish.

(Formulon!  )

Swordmage
Spellblade
Thaumurai!!!!

Mage Warrior
Mage Knight
Magic Knight
Arcane Warrior
Arcane Knight
Spellsword

[DonQuixote]

Just adding "spell" or "mage" to "sword" or "blade" doesn't really get at what I'm going for, here.  Hell, using "blade" in the word conjures up a sword-centric image, rather than a general one.  When you say "warrior," you aren't specifying what sort of weapon he's wielding.

Similarly, a two-word name just skirts around the matter.  We can always say "arcane warrior," but that's drawing on the two different definitions, rather than a word that unifies them both.

Maybe I've overreaching, here.  But it seems like an interesting idea to pursue.

[RedWarlock]

There's a reason Gish became as popular a word as it has, because the concept is so new. Something that uses both magic and combat training in one package isn't an idea we're brought up with from mythology or folklore.

[Prime32]

There's a reason Gish became as popular a word as it has, because the concept is so new. Something that uses both magic and combat training in one package isn't an idea we're brought up with from mythology or folklore.

Which is odd, since plenty of mythological warriors could use some magic. Heck, Bilbo Baggins could use magic. But most magic in older stories is closer to "superstitious practice that actually works" than "I can shoot fireballs with my mind".

[DonQuixote]

There's a reason Gish became as popular a word as it has, because the concept is so new. Something that uses both magic and combat training in one package isn't an idea we're brought up with from mythology or folklore.

Which is odd, since plenty of mythological warriors could use some magic. Heck, Bilbo Baggins could use magic. But most magic in older stories is closer to "superstitious practice that actually works" than "I can shoot fireballs with my mind".

I suspect that what's really new is the idea of the three categories.  If I recall correctly, in most of the cases in which a mythological warrior can use magic, that's just another function of their abilities--some heroes are demigods (Cú Chulainn), some have magic items (Bilbo), and some learn magic because that's a part of being a master warrior in their mythologies.  But, in most cases, nobody stands aghast because they can both fight and use magic.

Only once you have warriors and mages defined by a system like D&D, they end up as two distinct categories.  The introduction of a third category occupies a space that--previously--was the intersection of two circles of a Venn diagram.  However, since then, the gish has become a role in its own right.  And, if you ask me, that role deserves a name.

Perhaps we should start looking into other languages for the root of the word--that way, we don't end up with a word that more strongly evokes a preexisting meaning.  Any ideas?

[sirpercival]

Since you mentioned a Venn Diagram, I suggest we name it a Venator (which means "hunter" in Latin).

[Prime32]

some have magic items (Bilbo)

That's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about when the party in The Hobbit cast protective wards on the treasure they looted from the trolls. Or how hobbits have the ability to make people overlook them, which is described in the introduction as minor magic.

On "magic swordsmen", take a look at this thread and some of the links
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=25415

[ariasderros]

{type one} Hanuman of the Ramayana (Hindu myth) was nimble, strong, could magically fly, and prolifically used Polymorph. (of course, he was the son of the wind god...)

{type two} The four -kuten (holy warrior? tr?) that guard edges of the Buddha's realm all wielded sword and magic.

While Don is quite correct in general (as with my example of Hanuman), there are instances wherein magic, melee, and the ability to mix them is the relevant ability set (as the example of the -kuten). We are looking for more of type two. I am certain there are likely to be other examples of this in Norse, Hindu, Greek, African, Native American, Chinese, and / or Japanese mythos. There is just too much content there for there to not be other examples of what we seek. I personally am not as learned in these subjects as many others on these boards, so let's get to it team. 

[Prime32]

Speaking of Hindu myth, the astras were pretty flashy.

[ariasderros]

Speaking of Hindu myth, the astras were pretty flashy.

Daiklaves and Artifact Weapons we have, a name for the wielders we lack.

[DonQuixote]

Since you mentioned a Venn Diagram, I suggest we name it a Venator (which means "hunter" in Latin).

Not a bad start, but let's keep going.  We might be able to dig up something really fitting.

That's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about when the party in The Hobbit cast protective wards on the treasure they looted from the trolls. Or how hobbits have the ability to make people overlook them, which is described in the introduction as minor magic.

Hrm, I don't remember these.  Granted, the last time that I read The Hobbit was before I started playing D&D, so it may just not have registered.

On "magic swordsmen", take a look at this thread and some of the links
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=25415

Interesting.  I'll have to peruse these later.

{type one} Hanuman of the Ramayana (Hindu myth) was nimble, strong, could magically fly, and prolifically used Polymorph. (of course, he was the son of the wind god...)

{type two} The four -kuten (holy warrior? tr?) that guard edges of the Buddha's realm all wielded sword and magic.

While Don is quite correct in general (as with my example of Hanuman), there are instances wherein magic, melee, and the ability to mix them is the relevant ability set (as the example of the -kuten). We are looking for more of type two. I am certain there are likely to be other examples of this in Norse, Hindu, Greek, African, Native American, Chinese, and / or Japanese mythos. There is just too much content there for there to not be other examples of what we seek. I personally am not as learned in these subjects as many others on these boards, so let's get to it team. 

Now this is the sort of thing we're looking for.  I don't know much about Buddhism--what are the -kuten?  I'm fairly certain that "kuten" translates to "physical basis," but I've never heard of these guards.

[Prime32]

One of the things linked from that thread

Both the appellant (accuser) and the defendant had their arms and weapons assigned to him by the court, “that is to say, a long sword, short sword, and dagger.” The parties to a duel swear on oath that they will not bring any “magical power” to the duel “by which thou trusteth the better to overcome thine adversary…Nor that thou trusteth in any other thing, but only in God and thy body and on thy rightfull quarrel, help thee God and these saints.” The aforementioned forbidden magical powers included so-called “stones of virtue” and “herbs of virtue” (e.g., charms) [7].

Also, a fencing manual that tells you how to trap the souls of dying people in paste to defend yourself from harm.

[DonQuixote]

One of the things linked from that thread

Both the appellant (accuser) and the defendant had their arms and weapons assigned to him by the court, “that is to say, a long sword, short sword, and dagger.” The parties to a duel swear on oath that they will not bring any “magical power” to the duel “by which thou trusteth the better to overcome thine adversary…Nor that thou trusteth in any other thing, but only in God and thy body and on thy rightfull quarrel, help thee God and these saints.” The aforementioned forbidden magical powers included so-called “stones of virtue” and “herbs of virtue” (e.g., charms) [7].

Okay, now I have to go through this stuff after work.  I no longer have a choice in the matter.

Also, a fencing manual that tells you how to trap the souls of dying people in paste to defend yourself from harm.

Well, what did you think I brushed my teeth with?

[kurashu]

I don't understand this thread. Why do we need a word to express a complex thought when we already have ways of expressing it through clearer means -- saying wizard Knight or magic warrior or spellblade or made hammer?  Or even guy who trained in both combat and spells?

I think that reducing this concept to a single word -- one that will likely be drawn from out of context or made up and will likely never beyond this board -- is ridiculous.

Not everything is a TVTropes entry with nice boxed sides filled with examples and zigzags and subverted and averted.

Yes I know TVTROPES wasn't brought up before now, but it's the same thing that happens there.

[Nanshork]

I don't understand this thread. Why do we need a word to express a complex thought when we already have ways of expressing it through clearer means -- saying wizard Knight or magic warrior or spellblade or made hammer?  Or even guy who trained in both combat and spells?

I think that reducing this concept to a single word -- one that will likely be drawn from out of context or made up and will likely never beyond this board -- is ridiculous.

Not everything is a TVTropes entry with nice boxed sides filled with examples and zigzags and subverted and averted.

Yes I know TVTROPES wasn't brought up before now, but it's the same thing that happens there.

...what?   

[RedWarlock]

...or made hammer?

...what?   

Mage Hammer, perhaps?

[kurashu]

My phone autocorrect'd mage into made. It tried doing it again just now. But seriously, why does the concept of magic warrior guy need a simpler name than that? Maybe my butt just needs some painmeds but this just confuses the fuck out of me.