Sliver Queen

[Sneaky_Sable]

With everyone's balance issues aside, this is nicely done. Though, you're asking to balance something that is, by its very nature, overpowered (Slivers), and if you're familiar with the story of Magic the Gathering's various worlds, every single entity or group that tried to control the Slivers was eaten by them. Casually.

Volrath tried with mechanical slivers. Venser tried with BETTER mechanical slivers. Eventually Volrath just parked his plane of existence overlapping Dominaria and eliminated the queen. That ended well. (Spoiler: It didn't)

The Riptide Academy attempted to resurrect all the species lost in the planar overlap, and to control the Slivers they created the Sliver Overlord. It worked well for the Slivers, since they almost need a queen, but for the Riptide? Yeah, they were hunted down by almost everyone in creation and branded as criminals.

In every instance that Slivers turn up they are overpowered deck-destroying player-eating machines. So if the Queen seems a little overpowered to all of you, well, tough. FireInTheSky is just doing the source material justice. The Sliver Queen is the central hub of a race that has plagued the various realms of Magic the Gathering's multiverse since their inception. The Queen is a monster, an engine of destruction.

I would say that this build isn't powerful ENOUGH, but then again, the Queen's true strength is her brood. They are ever a part of her.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Y'know, there are enough slivers to make a 20 level class, just make the sliver choose what mutations(abilities) are available each day and sort/limit the abilities by level appropriateness.

Easily Tier 3

Edit: make Sliver Legion and Overlord PrC's with five levels each, that progress Sliver Queen's BP.

[DonQuixote]

I'm with JohnnyMayHymn.  Longer progression, daily selection, level-appropriate abilities.  It'll also be much cleaner to play.

Now, hurry up.  This would work beautifully for some of the enemies in an upcoming campaign I'm going to be running.   

[littha]

I'm with JohnnyMayHymn.  Longer progression, daily selection, level-appropriate abilities.  It'll also be much cleaner to play.

Now, hurry up.  This would work beautifully for some of the enemies in an upcoming campaign I'm going to be running.   

I have rules for using slivers as monsters on the previous page. They are extraordinarily lethal in any kind of numbers.

[Anomander]

I would say that this build isn't powerful ENOUGH
Considering the background of the creature, perhaps (as Don & John seem to agree) the problem is not that those 10 levels aren't powerful enough but that there aren't enough levels. That thing really sounds like epic material. Prestige classes seem like the way to go.

[FireInTheSky]

My brainstorm this morning takes the Sliver Queen a step away from the source material, but I think may make it a little more playable.  One problem I hadn't addressed yet was how many actions are available in a round for various slivers.  Well, my idea is that NONE of the created slivers get actions.  They exist, and can be attacked and killed, but they themselves can take no actions.  Instead, they affect what the Sliver Queen and/or companion can do.  There's already lots of precedent for animal companion/familiar/whatever getting a distinct set of actions from the main character.  So, the enemy can attack the Sliver Queen, the Sliver Companion, or if they can figure out which one is the one giving the ability killing them, they can attack a specific sliver, but only the Queen and Companion can fight back.  Obviously, I still have to flesh out this idea, but that's the general idea.

Thoughts?

[DonQuixote]

An interesting notion, but I'd add that the created slivers should still be able to make attacks of opportunity, albeit taking from the Sliver Queen's AoOs per round.  That lets you create a minefield of threatened areas, which seems appropriate.

You also might want to let the Sliver Queen take actions through her slivers.  For instance, say that an enemy is near one of my slivers.  Rather than going over and attacking, I spend my action having that sliver attack.  Or use one of its sliver abilities.  Or whatever.

[Anomander]

It helps with the action economy thing (and the pain of the whole party waiting for you to be done with the actions of each of your critters, I suppose).
If you opt for that route I would suggest that there be no one specific sliver companion.
You just select one sliver among all those at hand each round to be the one acting that round. Each sliver could be allowed a move action for movement only (otherwise they are kind of boring) and perhaps a fullround action to retreat to the SQ's space if they can reach her with three move actions. Although they don't attack, they could still be valid flanking partners.

Another possible option for a more 'massive sliver horde attack' is that instead of spawning slivers, you spawn sliver swarms.
The constituent creatures would be considered to be two size smaller than the SQ and they could act a little like the cranium rats, merging swarms and swarm regeneration with the merged swarms stacking the abilities.

Gives me the idea of an ability making a 5 ft. radius around the SQ to always be considered as a sliver swarm (that only dies if the SQ dies).

[veekie]

My brainstorm this morning takes the Sliver Queen a step away from the source material, but I think may make it a little more playable.  One problem I hadn't addressed yet was how many actions are available in a round for various slivers.  Well, my idea is that NONE of the created slivers get actions.  They exist, and can be attacked and killed, but they themselves can take no actions.  Instead, they affect what the Sliver Queen and/or companion can do.  There's already lots of precedent for animal companion/familiar/whatever getting a distinct set of actions from the main character.  So, the enemy can attack the Sliver Queen, the Sliver Companion, or if they can figure out which one is the one giving the ability killing them, they can attack a specific sliver, but only the Queen and Companion can fight back.  Obviously, I still have to flesh out this idea, but that's the general idea.

Thoughts?

Its quite a good idea I think, Slivers as part of the hive take actions as an entire Hive. Individual Slivers uncontrolled likely just autoattack everything or sit there placidly.

So I figure:
Early levels(1-5): The immature Queen can control another Sliver directly at the cost of an action(move maybe). Possibly this is only simple commands which they will follow until countermanded or invalid.
Mid levels(6-10): The Queen can now control Slivers more efficiently(Swift maybe?) but still follows the prior limits.
High levels(11-15): The Queen can direct the entire Hive as one mob, or exercise fine control over specific Slivers.
Endgame levels(16+): Fine control over mobs of the Hive, with the ability to split up and control multiple mobs separately.

[FireInTheSky]

So I figure:
Early levels(1-5): The immature Queen can control another Sliver directly at the cost of an action(move maybe). Possibly this is only simple commands which they will follow until countermanded or invalid.
Mid levels(6-10): The Queen can now control Slivers more efficiently(Swift maybe?) but still follows the prior limits.
High levels(11-15): The Queen can direct the entire Hive as one mob, or exercise fine control over specific Slivers.
Endgame levels(16+): Fine control over mobs of the Hive, with the ability to split up and control multiple mobs separately.

I like this.  Also, making this class 20 levels will allow me to spread out the Sliver tiers more and have the Advanced abilities really get pretty cool.

So, I guess I'll go with pretty much this + scrap the companion.  The queen will have some number of slivers around all the time, possibly being able to make a couple more in combat.

Now, hurry up.  This would work beautifully for some of the enemies in an upcoming campaign I'm going to be running.   

I won't have a chance to spend a lot of time on this until the weekend.  Hopefully that's not too far away for you.   


EDIT:
*SQ always has a number of slivers = HD
    When she levels she chooses what the sliver is that she gets, and is stuck with it, and she can change one of the old ones to a different one of the same or lower level, if she so desires.
*During combat, she can create/summon another 1/HD
    These follow pretty much the rules I had to start with, except adjusted for more level spacing
*Actions in combat will be an adaptation of veekie's suggestion quoted above.

[oslecamo]

*SQ always has a number of slivers = HD
    When she levels she chooses what the sliver is that she gets, and is stuck with it, and she can change one of the old ones to a different one of the same or lower level, if she so desires.
*During combat, she can create/summon another 1/HD
    These follow pretty much the rules I had to start with, except adjusted for more level spacing
*Actions in combat will be an adaptation of veekie's suggestion quoted above.

I strongly sugest either spammable temporary minions or permanent mob, not both. If you go with mob, you need a way to replenish lost ranks.

Also, may I sugest my mob rules for both more simplicity and balance? Because one minion/HD with "programable" actions that still gets an fullround of their own is still too strong.

In every instance that Slivers turn up they are overpowered deck-destroying player-eating machines. So if the Queen seems a little overpowered to all of you, well, tough. FireInTheSky is just doing the source material justice. The Sliver Queen is the central hub of a race that has plagued the various realms of Magic the Gathering's multiverse since their inception. The Queen is a monster, an engine of destruction.

That's a massive overstatement. Slivers were never really tournament worthy, and struggled even in casual, because they aren't fast enough to rush, and any kind of mass removal sends the whole deck crashing down. The queen did see play in some tournament decks, but always in her lonesome and just because she was one of the cheapest token producers ever printed. She would've actually been stronger if she was an elf or something.

[FireInTheSky]

*SQ always has a number of slivers = HD
    When she levels she chooses what the sliver is that she gets, and is stuck with it, and she can change one of the old ones to a different one of the same or lower level, if she so desires.
*During combat, she can create/summon another 1/HD
    These follow pretty much the rules I had to start with, except adjusted for more level spacing
*Actions in combat will be an adaptation of veekie's suggestion quoted above.

I strongly sugest either spammable temporary minions or permanent mob, not both. If you go with mob, you need a way to replenish lost ranks.

Because it's too many minions?  Too confusing?  Too much bookkeeping?  All of the above?

Also, may I sugest my mob rules for both more simplicity and balance? Because one minion/HD with "programable" actions that still gets an fullround of their own is still too strong.

At low levels, I don't think I'm gonna do "programmable" actions.  I was going to just do something like, "slivers get no actions, SQ can spend one of hers to have a Sliver do something," or something like that.  I'll take a look at the mob rules though.

[Sneaky_Sable]

That's a massive overstatement. Slivers were never really tournament worthy, and struggled even in casual, because they aren't fast enough to rush, and any kind of mass removal sends the whole deck crashing down. The queen did see play in some tournament decks, but always in her lonesome and just because she was one of the cheapest token producers ever printed. She would've actually been stronger if she was an elf or something.

I disagree with your disagreement of my statement, on the basis that mass removal can shut down most creature based decks, type be damned

Though, to contribute to the thread, some suggestions I could make are:

- Any square that the Sliver Queen threatens is treated as Difficult Terrain. This area is teeming with proto-Slivers, squirming about blindly as they scramble too and fro. These could represent Slivers that aren't mature enough to have names or stats attached to them.

- Rather then individual magic slivers that grant powers, why not turn them into Swarms to better represent the fact that Slivers are legion. A Muscle Sliver, for instance, is now a Muscle Sliver Swarm.

- I'm also inclined to disagree with the notion of "Temp Minons OR Mob, not both" on the basis that if the GM is comfortable keeping track of a thousand creatures, and the players ALLOW the Sliver Queen to ramp up to a thousand creatures, well... no one was using that Kingdom anyway.

[littha]

Slivers are so dangerous that a single queen constitutes a threat to an entire plane... I am not sure they would even work pre epic. Individually they are not all that strong but as a hive they combine all the qualities of Thrallherd, Leadership and HIVE...

[oslecamo]

Because it's too many minions?  Too confusing?  Too much bookkeeping?  All of the above?

All of the above indeed.

At low levels, I don't think I'm gonna do "programmable" actions.  I was going to just do something like, "slivers get no actions, SQ can spend one of hers to have a Sliver do something," or something like that.  I'll take a look at the mob rules though.

"Tokens" that just stay there granting bonus works too, just remember to have ways the enemy can target them when they're not acting.

I disagree with your disagreement of my statement, on the basis that mass removal can shut down most creature based decks, type be damned

On the contrary, the top goblin/elf decks can win on the third (or even second with some good luck) turn, aka before your opponent can drop the dreaded Wrath of God equivalent. Slower beatdown decks on the other hand pack creatures that are a serious threat by themselves, meaning you just need to drop one to force your enemy to nuke the board. The Queen by herself qualifies as a beatdown creature of that calibre, meaning ironically she works best whitout cluttering the rest of your deck with slivers, and instead puting in other beatdown creatures that also work well by themselves, mana speeders and the ocasional utility.

Slivers are so dangerous that a single queen constitutes a threat to an entire plane... I am not sure they would even work pre epic. Individually they are not all that strong but as a hive they combine all the qualities of Thrallherd, Leadership and HIVE...

They can join the waiting list then
-Kobolds and their dragon overlords.
-All undeads that can create spawns quickly.
-Neogi and their 4d4 spawns per great old master per turn.
-Etc, etc

This is, when all was said and done, the slivers story-wise were a side-threat at best and the planes were conquered by other factions. They defeated what, the riptide laboratory? Big deal, wizards were so nerfed during that block that it was a mercy killing more than anything else (seriously, it was just sad barely seeing any Blue in any top decks for over a year).

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Just blatently copy the cleric.

Give the Sliver Queen rebuke slivers, make adding to the hoard cost as much as a cleric would be paying for onyx(for undead).  Refluff the onyx to "the Queen must eat 100gp worth of food per HD of slivers added to the hoard". 

Let her summon as many slivers as a cleric could if the cleric only prepared summon monster.(temporary, like summon monster)

Easy tier 2, weaker than a core class.

EDIT: rebuke doesn't feel right but I think the mechanic could be refluffed as a sliver hoard and be ok.

[FireInTheSky]

Alright.  Some thoughts.  Having 4 different sets of sliver stats to keep track of is too much.  So here's where I'm up to:

SQ has a permanent collection of slivers equal to her HD.  If one dies, she can spawn another one 24hrs later.  All slivers have the same stats, with their HD = 3/4 SQ HD.  There are 4 tiers of sliver abilities.  When she re-spawns a sliver, she can choose a different ability for it to have from the same or lower tier.

Among the things I'm not sure of is whether there should be a cost for a sliver dying (HP damage / XP loss) or for the re-spawning (XP/GP expenditure).  Thoughts?

[oslecamo]

If they're 1/HD, each having 3/4 Hd sounds kinda too much, probably 1/2 HD is better. Speaking of which, the queen  should be a menace by herself, some Str bonus,combat abilities and stuff, she's a 7/7 in MTG after all. Also perhaps can only respawn a limited number of slivers every day, instead of all at once?

Another option may be that you get new stronger slivers as you gain HD, but the previous ones stay on the same overall power.

As for penalty for sliver dying, I would say the queen should actually get a combat bonus when one of her "childs"  dies, some kind of motherly rage. Since they're replaceable only 1/day, geting a sliver killed is already bad enough because it means you're losing that sliver's ability.

[FireInTheSky]

Okay, major rework in progress. Thoughts so far?

EDIT: Added a bunch of sliver abilities, and reworked several others.

[Gazzien]

I love you. Thank you for this.

Clot Sliver's regeneration should be bypassed by Fire or Acid, shouldn't it? I can't think of anything that deals both fire and acid damage at once. Or is that just how regeneration is phrased? Can't recall.
Gemhide Sliver should probably be Opaline Sliver instead - shroud seems more SR-y than [T]: Add mana does.
Quilled Sliver could grant a ranged natural attack (perhaps 1d6 damage, 30' range? Thrown spines?)
Fungus Sliver could grant temp HP every time you deal damage to an enemy.
Basal Sliver could have a "Sacrifice a swarm: Heal another swarm to full / resurrect a swarm that died this encounter" effect. (Because it coincidentally lets you sac for the amount of mana it takes to spawn a sliver); alternatively, this could be Darkheart Sliver (what with the sac-for-lifegain mechanic)
Pulmonic could grant better fly maneuverability as well as having some sort of time-delay resurrection of swarms; perhaps after 3 rounds, a swarm is resurrected with very low HP (1/HD, maybe?)
Sliversmith isn't a sliver. If anything, it would probably be a feat or a magic item. >n> Doesn't make sense to have the queen spawn a thing that is designed to spawn things originally designed to usurp the queen.
Spinneret Sliver could grant reach?