3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.

[AugustusGloop]

Here's my situation:
At the best of times I was a character builder noob, and now I'm years rusty.  I've been playing other systems, but have been lured back to 3.5 by a game concept I really like, and a DM who says he's sympathetic to the issues that made me leave the system in the first place.  So, I would love any help you can offer, from general "look in this book" advice, to specific, step by step advice, if you get inspired.

The world:
The game starts in a city that has been taken over by the D&D equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition meets Nazi Germany.  No one expected it.  The walls and gates are guarded by... well... guards, and rumor has it they are reinforced with spells and wards and who knows what all.  Outside the walls are deadly swamps and frozen tundras, and the rumor is that leaving is almost certain death. 

The Inquisition has declared that Arcane magic users are "witches" and "heretic", and are the tools of the devil, and it is the duty of every god fearing man, woman, child and orc to root them out and burn them at the stake.  To help you ensure that you are fervent enough in your duty to god, the church will do you the great favor of being all up in your business every moment of every day.  Personal freedoms are gleefully discarded for the sake of security from arcane magic, as houses are raided, people taken away, and the tainted blood cleansed (after being spilled onto the floor).  War is peace.  Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.  Etc.

The character:
I, and my fellow adventurers, are arcane magic users of some kind (or could easily be mistaken for them by a frightened and enraged populace), and as of the start of the game, NOT divine magic users.  We have heard of a group that takes in Arcane casters and protects them.  Reaching that group alive, without leading the church to them, is our only goal.  (Overthrowing the church is a pipe dream, but hey, whatever gets you through the night, right?)  We have just learned that the church knows about us, and is coming for us.  I expect that we will start individually, and find each other gradually, so no collaboration in character building is permitted.

I want to build an Arcane caster or Warlock that has real survival potential.  I am not looking to squeak every ounce of power out of my build for an ideal caster situation, I want to build someone who can survive both in the pot and in the fire.  I expect there will be a lot of hiding, suffering, running away, and probably crying.  I expect to face legions of foes who are specifically tailored to find and destroy Arcane magic users, most of them will be Divine magic casters associated with the church, but not all.

So, I throw myself on your mercy and experience.  I'll provide the fluff, if you help me decide on and figure out the crunch.

*Bold text highlights the important "tl;dr" and "you think you're so clever why not just tell me what I need to know without all your yacking" information.

The rules:

• Psionics are allowed, but will be treated as magic (Divine, Arcane, Psionic: All magic!)
• Book of Nine Swords is not allowed... for PCs. (Exception: Arcane spells from this book can be used, but I would prefer you didn't use very many)
• Incarnum is not allowed, period.
• Armour as Damage Reduction Rule is in effect
• All Arcane Failure of Armour is reduced by 5% - Padded Leather at 0%
• All character must have a casting progression. Divine casting progressions are not allowed at this time. Beyond this, there is no restriction for classes, save a few random banned classes below. Nearly all spellcasters will be auto accepted.

Character Creation

• Starting Level 7th
• All skills are considered class skills as per the Able Learner feat.
• Hit-Points: Maximum at each level
• Ability Scores are generated using 32 point buy, no buying below 10.
• At 4th and every four levels thereafter, characters add +1 to any two ability scores, one physical stat (Str, Dex, Con) and one mental Stat (Int, Wis, Cha)
• All characters gain a bonus feat (For which they qualify!) at 2nd Level
• Wealth: 9000 GP. This lower-then-standard wealth represents limited resources and/or occasional loss of resources.

Sources

• All PHB, DMG, MM, Completes, Race of, MIC, SC, and most other officially published books. NO to homebrew, DanDwiki, Dragon Magazine, Online publications (Even one’s by Wizards) or anything else that isn’t in a BOOK.
  

Class Changes

• Adept of The Green Star, Shadow Sun Ninja, other classes the DM hates: banned

Item Rules

• Items with charges replenish charges at a rate of 1/Day

[Pencil]

How strong should your character be?

[Cyclone Joker]

When you say not divine magic users, do you mean you cannot use divine magic, period, or that you must specifically be an arcane caster? Because, if it's the latter, I'd recommend Naenhoon(I believe) Illumian Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard(Or other arcane caster, but I like wizards) 2/Mystic Theurge 4. This gives you healing and protection spells, and enough slots/day. If this doesn't work, a bard might be a solid choice. Either Binder 1/Bard X or Changeling Rogue 1/Bard X would give you the social skills to get out of many problems.

Also, are Artificers arcane? If so, you might want to go with that. Specific builds:
Illumian
Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 4
1)Heighten B)Knowledge Devotion
3)Spell Mastery
6)Uncanny Forethought
Grab whatever domain you like. There are plenty of great ones out there.

Artificer 7
1)Extraordinary Artisan H)Apprentice(Craftsman) B)Scribe Scroll
B)Brew Potion
3)Magical Artisan(Extraordinary Artisan) B)Craft Wondrous Item
B)Whichever one you want. Maybe Legendary Artisan?
B)Craft Magic Arms and Armor
6)Craft Construct
B)Craft Wand
This one is pretty straight-forward and self-explanatory. Craft minions, wands, scrolls, and items, and be your party's best friend. They'll love a minion on the front line, saving their fragile arcane rears almost as much as the cheap items you can make for them. Unless they're playing god, in which case you can do it just as well.

[Unbeliever]

You need some more direction.  What you've told us (1) your DM will ban things he doesn't like (which is pretty obnoxious imho, but that's another story), (2) you want to survive, and (3) you're an arcane caster.  There's a ton of options for that.

Conjurers are great.  Warlocks can be made into super sneaky sniping machines that go all day.  You can do the same with other spellcasters, too.  Really, any Wizard could be turned into something approaching invincibility without too much opt-fu. 

So, yeah, give us a sense of the power level you're building to (e.g., would persistent polymorph with an outsider form be too much?) and pick a style.  Do you want to blow things up, illusionify, summonify, sneak, zap, etc.  And, we'll help you out. 

[Rebel7284]

Conjurers with Abrupt Jaunt are pretty wonderful for avoiding difficult situations.  Going to ruminate for more ideas.

[sirpercival]

Is homebrew allowed?  My guess is no, but it's worth a shot.

[SorO_Lost]

When you say not divine magic users,

3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.

The Inquisition has declared that Arcane magic users ...  arcane magic users of some kind ... NOT divine magic users. ... I want to build an Arcane caster or Warlock that has real survival potential. ... I expect to face legions of foes who are specifically tailored to find and destroy Arcane magic users, most of them will be Divine magic casters associated with the church, but not all.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think he wants an arcane spellcaster, not a cleric build.

***

Given the wide range we have to work with. I can only think Stealth is a focal point. And generally, magic isn't too helpful against mundane hide checks. Effects such as See Invisible, True Sight, and even Pierce Magical Protection are worthless and effects like Blindsense, Blightsight, Tremorsense, etc. are nulled out by Darkstalker. So unless your DM is using Mindsight and Divinations like Locate Creature against you, a decent Hide/Move bonus, Darkstalker, and maybe a source of HiPS will help out a lot.

I guess start at the bottom since I have no clue what your power level is like. Dread Necro has Hide as a class skill (but not move silently), built in unlimited self healing via a feat, and has thing wonderful theme to it. It's not that you'd be even remotely attempting to validate animating undead is an act of good, but your ability to animate the bodies of innocent souls they have killed is their sin manifested as a curse, and you are it's carrier. You'll have to use Versatile Caster to access Animate Dead at level 7 but it can be done since that is only the 3rd Feat I've mentioned. Plus Darkstalker is kind of out in the left field of I don't know what you want and Tomb-Tainted is replaced by going Undead.

Of course, the rest of the arcane classes tend to be a better necromancer than the Dread Necro, so if you like the concept but fear its to weak we can fix that.

[Solo]

Either Fell Flight or Flee the Scene offers you great mobility in a world where people won't be flying too much. As for the harsh weather, just set your energy resistance to Cold and have fun.

Here's an example warlock. You could go into Hellfire Warlock for a prestige class, especially if your DM allows the Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest feat to work with it.

[AugustusGloop]

How strong should your character be?

[size=78%]I'd like survival to be the priority, and in this town, keeping a low profile seems to be the first thing you learn.  I'd like to be able to do my thing in a fight, but I get the impression that being flashy will only draw out the enemies, and successfully running away will be a valid tactic.  I don't want to give the impression that the puny challengers sent to trouble me are barely worth getting out of bed for, because then the DM will try harder.  All of that said, I want my cake too, and would still like to carry my weight in an arcane based group.[/size]

When you say not divine magic users, do you mean you cannot use divine magic, period, or that you must specifically be an arcane caster?

[size=78%]He said specifically that Divine magic wasn't available at character creation, but left open the possibility of including it during advancement.[/size]


The straight Artificer build seems to be the only one that would be allowed, but I don't know how available materials would be.  We're already reduced from the normal gold per level starting amount due to scarcity and stuff being lost to the horrible things that are happening.  I don't know much about Artificers actually.  I'm interested in the concept, how difficult are they to play under the conditions I've listed?  They certainly seem flexible enough, and could help make up for scarcity in drool-inducing loot.  Would I have to do a lot of memorizing magic item tables to be effective?

You need some more direction.  What you've told us (1) your DM will ban things he doesn't like (which is pretty obnoxious imho, but that's another story), (2) you want to survive, and (3) you're an arcane caster.  There's a ton of options for that.

Conjurers are great.  Warlocks can be made into super sneaky sniping machines that go all day.  You can do the same with other spellcasters, too.  Really, any Wizard could be turned into something approaching invincibility without too much opt-fu. 

So, yeah, give us a sense of the power level you're building to (e.g., would persistent polymorph with an outsider form be too much?) and pick a style.  Do you want to blow things up, illusionify, summonify, sneak, zap, etc.  And, we'll help you out. 

[size=78%]I don't really have a sense of what sort of shenanigans the DM will allow, but I'm inclined to be a bit conservative.  All of these concepts are pretty new to me, so I'm not worried about not having fun playing something "stereotypical" that more experienced players would shun, but I don't want to get the hairy eyeball from the DM either.[/size]


One of my main concerns is characters built specifically to eat wizards.  Church Inquisitors, Consecrated Harriers, Spell Thieves?  I'm sure there are more out there.


Maybe what I need is a build that is subtle, hides well, and isn't as vulnerable to things designed to eat standard wizards.  Warlock is a strong contender, fitting the fluff requirements on its own (scary, definitely not Divine, and thus eligible to be "cleansed").


Illusion seems like it's great until it isn't, and then you're defenseless.  Same with charming.  The church has lots of ways of seeing through it too.  Summoning is nice, but seems like it would attract a lot of attention.  I'd like to go utility, with subtle zap.

[Cyclone Joker]

When you say not divine magic users,

3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.

The Inquisition has declared that Arcane magic users ...  arcane magic users of some kind ... NOT divine magic users. ... I want to build an Arcane caster or Warlock that has real survival potential. ... I expect to face legions of foes who are specifically tailored to find and destroy Arcane magic users, most of them will be Divine magic casters associated with the church, but not all.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think he wants an arcane spellcaster, not a cleric build.

I hear reading is cool, bro. If you did go through the immense trouble of actually reading the post, as bizarre as that'd be, knowing you, you'd have noticed what I was referring to was a Mystic Theurge. You know, something that can cast arcane/divine. Because, you know, arcane and divine casting are not mutually exclusive. Again, knowing this would require actually reading the books, so I'm not surprised, but ever so slightly disappointed.

Given the wide range we have to work with. I can only think Stealth is a focal point. And generally, magic isn't too helpful against mundane hide checks. Effects such as See Invisible, True Sight, and even Pierce Magical Protection are worthless and effects like Blindsense, Blightsight, Tremorsense, etc. are nulled out by Darkstalker. So unless your DM is using Mindsight and Divinations like Locate Creature against you, a decent Hide/Move bonus, Darkstalker, and maybe a source of HiPS will help out a lot.

I guess start at the bottom since I have no clue what your power level is like. Dread Necro has Hide as a class skill (but not move silently), built in unlimited self healing via a feat, and has thing wonderful theme to it. It's not that you'd be even remotely attempting to validate animating undead is an act of good, but your ability to animate the bodies of innocent souls they have killed is their sin manifested as a curse, and you are it's carrier. You'll have to use Versatile Caster to access Animate Dead at level 7 but it can be done since that is only the 3rd Feat I've mentioned. Plus Darkstalker is kind of out in the left field of I don't know what you want and Tomb-Tainted is replaced by going Undead.

Of course, the rest of the arcane classes tend to be a better necromancer than the Dread Necro, so if you like the concept but fear its to weak we can fix that.

Hiding is inefficient. Not very effective without far too much work put into it, and is easily countered. At level 7, invisibility is a solid defense. Social skills are going to be much more important as, unless he has buffs up or is caught casting, a human wizard and a human rogue are effectively indistinguishable. If wizard isn't wanted, beguiler or bard is the way to go. Not DN. Plus, Dragon Compendium(A book, not a magazine) gave us the Bloodline feats, so you can fit some very nice spells onto your list, to make up for the holes in the beguiler one.

Artificers are relatively simple, and the build I provided has enough cost-reduction(Specifically, you pay 50.625% of what you'd normally pay during crafting) that reduced WBL shouldn't be too much of a problem. And scrolls are cheap, anyways, as are wands, and Metamagic Spell Trigger should keep your damage decent. Artificer is really best if all your other bases are covered, though.

Oh, by the way, most of those wizard-hosers really aren't very good at it. A well build wizard will devour a standard Church Inquisitor or Spellthief for breakfast, and ask for seconds. Just play like Batman or a God-Wizard, and you should be fine. Just things like Grease and Web, and other amazing SoLs/No save just lose spells.

[AugustusGloop]

Given the wide range we have to work with. I can only think Stealth is a focal point. And generally, magic isn't too helpful against mundane hide checks. Effects such as See Invisible, True Sight, and even Pierce Magical Protection are worthless and effects like Blindsense, Blightsight, Tremorsense, etc. are nulled out by Darkstalker. So unless your DM is using Mindsight and Divinations like Locate Creature against you, a decent Hide/Move bonus, Darkstalker, and maybe a source of HiPS will help out a lot.

I guess start at the bottom since I have no clue what your power level is like. Dread Necro has Hide as a class skill (but not move silently), built in unlimited self healing via a feat, and has thing wonderful theme to it. It's not that you'd be even remotely attempting to validate animating undead is an act of good, but your ability to animate the bodies of innocent souls they have killed is their sin manifested as a curse, and you are it's carrier. You'll have to use Versatile Caster to access Animate Dead at level 7 but it can be done since that is only the 3rd Feat I've mentioned. Plus Darkstalker is kind of out in the left field of I don't know what you want and Tomb-Tainted is replaced by going Undead.

Of course, the rest of the arcane classes tend to be a better necromancer than the Dread Necro, so if you like the concept but fear its to weak we can fix that.

Looking into Darkstalker, I'm unfamiliar with it.
Does dread necro have other options than raising the dead to fight?  I'd be concerned that having an army of corpses would attract notice, not to mention be particularly vulnerable to the cleric army.

[AugustusGloop]

Also, let's keep it civil.  I threw out a lot of information in my original post, and it's not especially well organized.  Mistakes happen, and missing points isn't as important as the desire to help.  Thank you all, btw, for showing interest in my problems!  I really appreciate it!

[AugustusGloop]

New rule: Consumable magic items (Scrolls, potions, ect.) are now double cost.  Making the Artificer look much better.

[Mooncrow]

The artificer is actually a pretty good option, especially if you're aiming higher up on the power curve.  If you're interested, check out the handbook for a good place to start. 

[Unbeliever]

Given what you said, I'd say a sneaky Warlock or Zap-oriented spellcaster is the way to go.  The latter is probably more powerful, overall, but the Warlock is pretty solid.  You'll want to look at Spellwarp Sniper guides and Warlock ones. 

Stealth can be quite powerful as a survival tool if you invest a little into it.  And, provided, your DM doesn't decide to go out of his way to (also known as cheating) to ruin it.  One of my favorite moves is to at least dip into Warlock and grab Blend into Shadows (feat, Drow of the Underdark), which gives you swift action hiding.  You can also grab the Dark Template magic collar/necklace in Tome of Magic for Hide in Plane Sight.

Sneak Attack + Ambush Feats + easy hiding + something like Eldritch Chain or solid spell choices is a pretty good combination against anyone. 

That's my suggestion based on what you've indicated.  But, AugustusGloop, you're still all over the map.  I see Artificers, Necromancers, and sneaky zap casters all in this thread.  They can all work.  There's a lot of opt-fu available for you to use here.  But, I think this is going to get really scattered really quickly.  As I said before, pick something you like b/c you like the concept and feel of it.  That's all on you.  We can help you make sure that you will be mechanically badass.  That's kind of the easy party.

@Necromancy:  You could go for incorporeal undead.  They are hella sneaky and can be quite effective.  But, if you expect church inquisitors in any numbers, I'd shy away from it.  It's kind of annoying to have your major class features negated even when the DM isn't trying to. 


P.S.:  nothing really "eats wizards."  In theory, a Spellthief or someone with Mage Slayer would be annoying.  But, you're comparing the class/archetype with arguably the largest wealth of options and firepower at its disposal.  Even just ye olde battlefield control or blaster mage is going to put the hurt on anything, even something says "death to all mages" on its resume. 

[Rebel7284]

If stealth and confusion are your main goals, beguiler may be powerful too.  All the right skills as class skills.

[AugustusGloop]

The artificer is actually a pretty good option, especially if you're aiming higher up on the power curve.  If you're interested, check out the handbook for a good place to start.

Ok, so I like the flavor and the utility!  I still have two concerns:
The handbooks says plainly, "Not for noobs."  Now, I understand which end of the character to point at the bad guy, and I get the rules, and I even understand the Tier power system in vague terms.  Am I going to have trouble using this character effectively?
Also, we're going to be on the run, in an arcane hostile territory.  How dependent on things like forges and bellows, extensive bendy glass distillers, and heavy, expensive components would I be to make my wondrous items?

Given what you said, I'd say a sneaky Warlock or Zap-oriented spellcaster is the way to go.  The latter is probably more powerful, overall, but the Warlock is pretty solid.  You'll want to look at Spellwarp Sniper guides and Warlock ones. 

Stealth can be quite powerful as a survival tool if you invest a little into it.  And, provided, your DM doesn't decide to go out of his way to (also known as cheating) to ruin it.  One of my favorite moves is to at least dip into Warlock and grab Blend into Shadows (feat, Drow of the Underdark), which gives you swift action hiding.  You can also grab the Dark Template magic collar/necklace in Tome of Magic for Hide in Plane Sight.

Sneak Attack + Ambush Feats + easy hiding + something like Eldritch Chain or solid spell choices is a pretty good combination against anyone. 

Spellwarp Sniper seems like a really cool option.  In your experience, how well do they handle utility spells in addition to their sniper abilities?  Are they like a warmage, not much good for anything but their specialty, or are they just focused on doing one thing well, with other, less effective options like say, a summoner?

But, AugustusGloop, you're still all over the map.  I see Artificers, Necromancers, and sneaky zap casters all in this thread.  They can all work.  There's a lot of opt-fu available for you to use here.  But, I think this is going to get really scattered really quickly.  As I said before, pick something you like b/c you like the concept and feel of it.  That's all on you.  We can help you make sure that you will be mechanically badass.  That's kind of the easy party.

Don't I know it.  I'm trying to get a feel for the things out there that are mechanically suited to the game so I can decide if the character fluff works for me.  If I knew enough coming into it to say "I'm interested in roguey wizards, what've you got?" I'd be leagues ahead of where I feel like I am.  (That said, I think I'm interested in roguey wizards (or warlocks)).  I was intentionally (and I'm sure annoyingly) not discarding things out of hand until I had a few different concepts as a sort of field definer of what's available.


Warlocks are neat, and I played a warlock/war mage/eldritch theurge once that was immensely satisfying, but he had a group designed around keeping the bad guys back far enough to nuke.  Also, fireballs weren't going to bring the church cops out en-masse. 

@Necromancy:  You could go for incorporeal undead.  They are hella sneaky and can be quite effective.  But, if you expect church inquisitors in any numbers, I'd shy away from it.  It's kind of annoying to have your major class features negated even when the DM isn't trying to.

 
I got momentarily excited!  Of course, incorporeal undead!  Then I remembered.  Turn undead.  Turn undead everywhere.  I'm going to hoist the necromancer idea over the side.  Also, I think for fluff reasons I'm going to stay away from divine magic.  If the initial restriction weren't in I would love to play an Archivist, pretending to be devout to get a look at the old stacks at the back of the church, but it's not to be.


I think right now my top options are Artificers (pending the resolution of my concerns about having a workshop etc), a sneaky Warlock with a charisma focus to lie my way out of trouble, and the roguey wizard (spellwarp sniper?) who can blast quietly, or hide, or take advantage of the bazillion other options offered by a wizard.

If stealth and confusion are your main goals, beguiler may be powerful too.  All the right skills as class skills.

I'd be concerned that too many divine classes are resistant to or able to break enchantments and illusions.  The entire complete divine is making me nervous actually, not to mention the variant paladins.  The idea of a beguiler is amazing, and could "hide in plain sight" in the middle of an inquisition, but what happens if I'm discovered? 

[AugustusGloop]

Also, what's your opinion of this guy?  Mr-Know-It-All


And while researching Uncanny Forethought, I found this:
DIVINE DENIALYou harden your will against the power of the deities.Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks, Iron Will.Benefit: Whenever you are the target of a divine spell, yougain a +2 bonus on saving throws to resist the spell. If the
spell does not allow a saving throw, you can make a Will save
against the spell’s DC as if it allowed a save. If you succeed,you negate the effect of the spell.

[Mooncrow]

As long as you aren't on the run every day, you should be fine.  You do need some downtime, so you might want to check with the DM on that.  If you're going to be literally constantly on the run, yeah, not a good option.  The crafting rules are actually pretty lax as far as having workspace/tools. 

Complexity-wise, there are a lot of options, since you basically have theoretical access to every spell in the game.  However, it's not that hard to simplify it down and have a strong character that focuses on a few things, and then as you get more comfortable with the class, you can expand the repertoire.

So, if you go the artificer route, just say the word and we can help you out with the build^^

[Amechra]

Is Binding allowed?

After all, Binders are very good at surviving crap; just suppress all the signs of your Binds, and make sure that you make good Pacts (not that hard, really) and you could, you know, pretend to be a Divine caster.

Once they see healing and Turning Undead, they usually go "huh, looks divine to me."

At 7th level, you'll only get one bind, but once you gain a level, you should be fine due to a second bind.

If not, I can help with making a 'lock, or maybe even an Assassin (hey, they get a very nice list for the whole stealth thing...)

May I ask why Wizard's online content is banned?