Need help creating a rogue

[thurmin]

I'm going to be running a game. High level, full of cheesy goodness. The group is a ...quasi hero group. More like selfish, mercenary pricks then actual hero's. They have taken a hiatus from their lives of adventure until things happen to propel them back into the spot light.

Currently the group consists of (characters may change, game hasn't officially started yet):

Pixie Rogue/Assassin
Human Wizard/Cleric/True Necromancer
Gnome Artificier
Dwarven Half-Dragon Fighter
Orc Battle Cleric (I don't know how he's building his character)
Drow Fighter/Warblade/Dervish

Everyone has the option to start at level 16, but the guy playing the artificier convinced everyone to start at 15. Using their experience to buy up a crap ton of magical items. So expect them all to be blinged out.

I've got idea's for a counter for each of my players, except for the rogue. I just don't have enough experience with rogues to create something that will go well in a party mix.

My opponent group consists of:

Kobold Wizard(or sorcerer, not sure which yet) 18
Minotaur Warblade/Fighter 2H wielder 15
Goliath Cloistered Cleric 2/Crusader 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
Half-Orc Dragonborn Rogue 1/Cleric 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 4/Psychic Warrior +1/Fighter 1/Warblade +5
Tiefling Wizard 2/Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 10
Whisper Gnome Rogue....of roguey rogish...ness.

[ksbsnowowl]

Swift Ambusher?

Scout 4/Rogue 11 with Swift Ambusher has +6d6 sneak attack, +4d6/+4 AC skirmish
Add in Craven, and you should be good to go.

An Anklet of Translocation is your friend.

[thurmin]

Sweet! Appreciate the help. That sounds ideal for my mix!

[phaedrusxy]

Your NPC party seems like it would likely overshadow the PC party and make them feel small in the pants. I'd avoid doing that. Is this "anti-party" going to actually be working together and fighting your party as a team? If so... that sounds like a recipe for TPK.

[thurmin]

No. They will be fighting each of their counterpoints at each of the story arc points. Basically they will be the 'boss character' for each thread/arc they follow to conclusion before reaching the final boss. The kobold sorcerer.

[ksbsnowowl]

No. They will be fighting each of their counterpoints at each of the story arc points. Basically they will be the 'boss character' for each thread/arc they follow to conclusion before reaching the final boss. The kobold sorcerer.

That's what I figured you were doing.

Just because I like UMD so much, I would suggest maxing out his UMD skill.  You can get to +18 (plus/minus Cha mod), which is nearly assured activation of wands, scepters, and staffs.  A couple ranks in Spellcraft and Decipher Script would bump his UMD with scrolls by +4.  Just imagine him utilizing a scroll of Greater Dimension Jumper from Complete Mage...
(though that would be extremely hard for him to activate.)

Edit:  Get a CL 10 wand of Divine Insight.  Once during its 10-hour duration you can call upon a +15 insight bonus to a single skill check.  Call upon it to make the above UMD check.  Your DC to hit would be 37 for a 17th CL scroll.  18+15 = 33; add in a +2 synergy for Decipher Script and you are at +35, and almost assuredly make the check.  Make sure you have a Charisma of 12+ or grab 5 ranks in Spellcraft to make absolutely sure you can hit the DC.

[thurmin]

Sweet. Great ideas.

I finished my 1st game last night. Basically shaking out the cobwebs and getting party cohesion set and a direction to send them. Lucky for me, they took the bait! I will have them out of the way for the next phase of my dastardly plan! To spread chaos, divide the countries to conquer and subjugate the masses!

The human, elven, dwarven lands will bow before the might of their supreme master Yenmorttim! Mwahahahahahahahaaaaa!

[muktidata]

Make sure the Rogue has a wand slot on his weapon and a wand of Wraithstrike (Eternal or otherwise). If he's TWF'ing, put one on one end of the weapon/one weapon and a wand of Nerveskitter in the other. Make them cast Revivify!

[ShubNiggurath]

I love the killer gnome build

Just don't follow the link advice on early levels/feats and enter Blade Bravo as rogue 3/fighter [Hit and run tactics from DotU] 2/Conjurer wizard [abrupt jaunt + fighter feats] 1/swashbuckler 1 to pile up bonus feats to collect everything you need (craven, darkstalker, titan fighting, underfoot combat, confound the big folk and all the prerequisites for Blade Bravo).

It requires a DM that ignores multiclass xp penalties but who doesn't? Flaws would help as well. You also should get the Dark creature template from ToM... but once again what rogue doesn't?

I created a thread about this build about a week ago and I got a lot of useful feedback. You might want to dig it out.

[thurmin]

Hmmm. I am actually keeping the xp penalty in my game. I'm giving them everything else that you can do to make themselves into wonderful characters. I've allowed all 3.5 source material (including Dragon Magazine) and other worlds.

I have ruled that xp penalties exist, no pun-pun builds (none know what that is, thank all that is holy/unholy) and no Nightstick cheese to fuel DMM tricks. Beyond those simple guidelines, they are free to make themselves into an impressive group.

While the group IS impressive, they are far from optimized. Even the one that is recognized as THE optimizer is playing a optimal class in a suboptimal way (human artificier).

My 'villians' will follow the same rules, and if this results in not being 'as powerful' as the PCs, that is fine. I'm not looking to destroy them, I'm looking to give them a fight that will make them actually fear for their character's lives, while frustrating them along the way, and making them earn each win.

Time will tell if I succeed in running my game to reach that expectation...

[ShubNiggurath]

In that case you can still make the build work at those high levels

Your build would go something like Whisper Gnome Dark creature LA+1/rogue 3/fighter 2/monk 2/Blade Bravo 10

Take all the flaws you can. You want

Combat Expertise, Dodge+Titan Fighting (RoS); WF(rapier) [prereq], Weapon finesse [prereq], Underfoot combat, Confound the Big Folk, Craven, Darkstalker, Dragonfire strike (DMagic), Staggering strike (CAdv) and the TWF line. The Mage slayer line and Elusive Target (CW) are also good

Take the Cosmopolitan Feat to get Iaijutsu Focus skill (Oriental Adventures) always in class and max it. Use a gnome quickrazor (RoS)

Also make sure that you take the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape, the Spell Reflection ACF from CM and the Hit and Run tactics ACF from Drow of the Underdark

Finally buy a mithril chain shirt +1 of Greater Blurring for less than 20k and everything to increase your hide check


Now you are completely undetectable (even with magic, the only way to find you is basically to beat your hide check with spot and that's almost impossible) and do ungodly amount of damage every round since your enemies are always flatfooted (hiding in combat at -20) so you are doing your Iaijutsu damage, your Sneak attack damage and your Hit-and-run tactics damage every round, every attack.
If they somewhat find you, you enter their square and your AC will be so high that they won't hit you. And they are FF again. Get reduced by the party wizard for bonus points.


And if the enemy is immune to sneak attack? Iaijutsu works just as well and they still get hit by half of the sneak attack damage thanks to penetrating strike as long as you have a flanker. Buy a wand of gravestrike/golemstrike/vinestrike and a wand chamber for your razors


At such high level I would consider playing a Petal (MM3; LA+2) if the "cohort" requirement is handwaved

[thurmin]

In that case you can still make the build work at those high levels

Your build would go something like Whisper Gnome Dark creature LA+1/rogue 3/fighter 2/monk 2/Blade Bravo 10

Take all the flaws you can. You want

Combat Expertise, Dodge+Titan Fighting (RoS); WF(rapier) [prereq], Weapon finesse [prereq], Underfoot combat, Confound the Big Folk, Craven, Darkstalker, Dragonfire strike (DMagic), Staggering strike (CAdv) and the TWF line. The Mage slayer line and Elusive Target (CW) are also good

Take the Cosmopolitan Feat to get Iaijutsu Focus skill (Oriental Adventures) always in class and max it. Use a gnome quickrazor (RoS)

Also make sure that you take the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape, the Spell Reflection ACF from CM and the Hit and Run tactics ACF from Drow of the Underdark

Appreciate the feedback ShubNiggurath. I can understand the Dark template, the Rogue w/ ACF from Dungeonscape, the Fighter w/ DotU ACF as well as the assorted feats initially listed.

Cosmopolitan Feat isn't allowed (Oriental Adventures is a 3.0 book)

Spell Reflection ACF from CM is nice, but you suggested Monk 2 in place of Conjurer Wizard 1/Swashbuckler 1. Is the reason you suggested Monk 2, to get Evasion back? Therefore, the build would be Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Conjurer Wizard 1/Swashbuckler 1/Blade Bravo 10/Add your flavor 1?

What you have given me so far is extremely useful. I will be utilizing this build as it fits the ticket perfectly. I'm mostly concerned for optimization purposes on your suggestion there

[Halinn]

Unless you have a particularly good reason for it, consider incarnum instead of monk for evasion. Either the Great Raptor Mask (bound to totem), or the Impulse Boots (bound to feet). Totemist 2 can get the mask, or two feats (requires 13 con and level 6) can get the boots

[Dusk Eclipse]

I like monk 2 for Invisible Fist, it gives you invisibility the condition, not the spell so you can full attack while invisible and get all you SA. And IIRC it is an Ex ability, pretty neat in my opinion

[thurmin]

I like monk 2 for Invisible Fist, it gives you invisibility the condition, not the spell so you can full attack while invisible and get all you SA. And IIRC it is an Ex ability, pretty neat in my opinion

Is Invisible Fist an Alternative Class Feature? If so, what book is it found?

[Rebel7284]

I like monk 2 for Invisible Fist, it gives you invisibility the condition, not the spell so you can full attack while invisible and get all you SA. And IIRC it is an Ex ability, pretty neat in my opinion

Is Invisible Fist an Alternative Class Feature? If so, what book is it found?

Exemplars of Evil.

Factotum is the best Rogue.  Something like Factotum 8/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Other dips/PrCs

[ShubNiggurath]

In that case you can still make the build work at those high levels

Your build would go something like Whisper Gnome Dark creature LA+1/rogue 3/fighter 2/monk 2/Blade Bravo 10

Take all the flaws you can. You want

Combat Expertise, Dodge+Titan Fighting (RoS); WF(rapier) [prereq], Weapon finesse [prereq], Underfoot combat, Confound the Big Folk, Craven, Darkstalker, Dragonfire strike (DMagic), Staggering strike (CAdv) and the TWF line. The Mage slayer line and Elusive Target (CW) are also good

Take the Cosmopolitan Feat to get Iaijutsu Focus skill (Oriental Adventures) always in class and max it. Use a gnome quickrazor (RoS)

Also make sure that you take the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape, the Spell Reflection ACF from CM and the Hit and Run tactics ACF from Drow of the Underdark

Appreciate the feedback ShubNiggurath. I can understand the Dark template, the Rogue w/ ACF from Dungeonscape, the Fighter w/ DotU ACF as well as the assorted feats initially listed.

Cosmopolitan Feat isn't allowed (Oriental Adventures is a 3.0 book)

Spell Reflection ACF from CM is nice, but you suggested Monk 2 in place of Conjurer Wizard 1/Swashbuckler 1. Is the reason you suggested Monk 2, to get Evasion back? Therefore, the build would be Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Conjurer Wizard 1/Swashbuckler 1/Blade Bravo 10/Add your flavor 1?

What you have given me so far is extremely useful. I will be utilizing this build as it fits the ticket perfectly. I'm mostly concerned for optimization purposes on your suggestion there

Cosmopolitan is FRCS, Iaijutsu is OA. Without Iaijutsu you lose some punch but you you still kick ass

I have proposed an ECL 18 build (remember LA+1). You can top it off with conj wizard 1/swashbuckler 1 for sure, but I would much rather continue rogue to get uncanny dodge and +1d6 SA.
The wizard level is nice though, if you don't use multiclass penalties I would take that early instead of fighter 2 (simple wizard variant for fighter bonus feats). Monk 2 is a nice level (bonus feat, evasion->spell reflection, +1BAB, +1/1/1 saves, better flurry) so I would keep it especially if you can't use iaijutsu (and therefore will use unarmed strikes to fight to get an extra attack from flurry). Go cobra strike monk (you need dodge anyway and mobility does not hurt)

If you are finding that you can't squeeze all the feats in you could go LA+1/rogue 3/fighter 1/conj wizard 1/monk (cobra strike) 1/swashbuckler 1/Blade Bravo 10/rogue +2

But I like more (for the reasons above)

LA+1/rogue 3/fighter 1/conj wizard 1/monk (cobra strike) 2/Blade Bravo 10/rogue +2

And if multiclass penalties are enforced:

LA+1/rogue 3/fighter 2/monk (cobra strike) 2/Blade Bravo 10/rogue +2
(as I have proposed above)


Note that there is a bracer on the MIC that gives you a feat in the TWF line. Also BB gives free feats and the only decent choices are the TWF line again, so don't use your standard feats for those

Note also that if you DO take that wizard level you will need to spend a bit extra money for thistledown padding (RotW) to avoid ASF (you should already be wearing mithril anyway). Remember the Greater Blurring on the armor. Get a (darkwood) shield as well.


Finally, this build does not need invisibility. You are always hidden and therefore effectively invisible at all times, as long as you are not fighting someone with a huge spot

[thurmin]

@ Rebel 7284; I will look that over, I'm wanting a very difficult to find rogue that does his thiefy goodness. A optimized mirror of the group's rogue. Also, thank you for the book where I can find the ACF.

@Halinn: I will look into this Incarnum you mentioned.

@ShubNiggurath: Thank you again for the clarifications. I am enjoying your build for the sheer 'wtf-itude' it will evoke out of my players.

[ShubNiggurath]

@ShubNiggurath: Thank you again for the clarifications. I am enjoying your build for the sheer 'wtf-itude' it will evoke out of my players.

Assuming that this character will attack indoors or at night, they will DIE (or teleport away) unless they have arcane sight (or similar), daylight spell+true seeing AT THE SAME TIME or a dedicated spotter with a huge spot check.

True Seeing defeats the Greater Blurring armor enhancements but if he had mundane concealment (indoors/at night that should be easy) they will still not find him
Even a daylight spell won't help... it defeats  HIPS but not Greater Blurring so he is still concealed.

Good luck killing him with area spells (evasion + huge REF save). They won't be able to target him.


Have the other group ambush your group, mass dimensional anchor them and teleport away leaving only the gnome behind. Then watch them die :evil:

[thurmin]

@ShubNiggurath: Thank you again for the clarifications. I am enjoying your build for the sheer 'wtf-itude' it will evoke out of my players.

Assuming that this character will attack indoors or at night, they will DIE (or teleport away) unless they have arcane sight (or similar), daylight spell+true seeing AT THE SAME TIME or a dedicated spotter with a huge spot check.

True Seeing defeats the Greater Blurring armor enhancements but if he had mundane concealment (indoors/at night that should be easy) they will still not find him
Even a daylight spell won't help... it defeats  HIPS but not Greater Blurring so he is still concealed.

Good luck killing him with area spells (evasion + huge REF save). They won't be able to target him.


Have the other group ambush your group, mass dimensional anchor them and teleport away leaving only the gnome behind. Then watch them die :evil:

Okay. That is...not what I want. I want a highly optimized bloke (my party won't be fighting together. Each member is a separate 'boss' for each arc) that will make their lives a living hell while they are dealing with him, but not to outright kill them. I may allow 1 or 2 deaths tho, since we have a cleric and a true necromancer.