Request for various RAW sources...

[NunoM]

I hate rules-lawyering, but this become an issue when the DM started questioning my actions and reading of the rules during the session, so i figured i should get some RAW on this...

1. Two-weapon fighting penalties: do they apply for the rest of the round, say, for AoOs later that round?
2. Can i use my armor spikes for AoOs after using a full-attack with a reach weapon in the same round? (My DM said "your attention is focused on your glaive during this round, so you can't use them...")

...there are more, but i figured i better start off easy

[Eagle of Fire]

Ok. I'm not 100% sure... If I'm not right I'm sure others will jump in heartily to point me wrong... But:

1) Two weapon fighting modifiers always apply as soon as you have two weapons, one in each hands, and are using them both in battle at the same time. To save on the negative modifier then you would need to drop your second weapon somehow so you can hit with unmodified first hand weapon. (I would allow one of my PC to drop his second weapon as a free action even if it wasn't their turn if it was required somehow but I don't think a specific critical AoO would ever happen in my games to warrant a player from losing the advantage of their second weapon... However, that would probably be a critical climax moment of "if I don't hit we are in deep ****" or something similar so why not allow it?)

2) I don't see why you could not only because you used a reach weapon in that round. As long as the weapon is a valid, ready weapon you can use at that time then you have the choice to do use whichever ready weapon you want.

If I were the DM the might be consequences for basically trying to football bash someone with spikes while using a reach weapon... But that's completely beside your question and more on a RP matter.

[linklord231]

1.  Yes and No.  TWF penalties only apply when you are actively using both weapons to attack.  "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way." "This way" refers to getting one extra attack per round.  If it did not refer to that, then the only way to avoid taking TWF penalties would be to wield a weapon in two hands.  You can make a Shield Bash if you're using a shield, or an unarmed strike otherwise.  If you are only holding two weapons, you don't take TWF penalties.  If you are using both weapons to attack, and thus gain the extra attack, then you do take penalties.  Also, compare the wording of TWF to, say, Snap Kick, which says "You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round."

2.  Yes.  AoOs only care if you threaten the relevant square.  Your armor spikes allow you to threaten the squares adjacent to you.  Ask him where in the rules he's getting the idea that you can only use one weapon per round.

[NunoM]

Thank you for your answers so far...

About 2) i'm glad to see you're reading it the same way i am... "As long as i threaten the squares AoOs are valid. It doesn't matter the weapon i used during that round."

About 1): What if i don't attack with the weapon in the off-hand? Just hold it, like a shield or something else i could hold there (ex.: a wand, a potion, a rope's end...) Would the penalties apply?

I don't think so... The way i read it, penalties would apply only if i used a full-attack action and used the extra attack granted by the 2nd weapon. However, after i'm done with the full-attack action, i would be back to the "mono-weapon" mode, so every AoO provoked in that round wouldn't be made with the penalties for TWF...
Also, the TWF rules don't specify if the penalties last until the end of the round (like "Snap Kick") or until your next turn (like "Power Attack"), so i assumed they don't. Am i reading it wrong?

[Demelain]

About 1): What if i don't attack with the weapon in the off-hand? Just hold it, like a shield or something else i could hold there (ex.: a wand, a potion, a rope's end...) Would the penalties apply?

For the specific page and text:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra
attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard,
however, and you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or
attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with
your off hand.

Same emphasis as linklord above, see his post for an explanation.

Your DM may choose to rule that the penalties do apply if you're manipulating something with your other hand (if you are actually using the wand, the potion, or holding onto something heavy on the rope [like an dangling ally]) but it would be a houserule - albeit a somewhat reasonable one.

[NunoM]

^^^
Thank you for looking up the source, but i'm sorry, i didn't understand... Does that mean you agree with my interpretation of the rules?
Rephrasing the question: Do the penalties apply only if i use the extra attack, or not? and how long do they last?

[FlaminCows]

The penalties apply during the action in which you use the attack and only during that action. If it were to last the round, it would say so.

[nijineko]

the penalties apply to every attack made during the full attack action. the rules compendium specifies that the weapons must be "wielded", implying not just being held in order to gain the bonus attack and incur the penalty.

[Eagle of Fire]

I really hate when rules are left to interpretation like this. When I read the description, "when you fight this way" for me mean whenever you are fighting with two weapons wielded at the same time.

If you do an off attack of opportunity, it is true that you only hit with a single weapon... But you still wield the other weapon at the same time.

However, for the OP, to be fair it is probably best to believe strictly English natives on this matter as I'm not.

[nijineko]

to be honest, despite my recent reading of it, i think in actual game play we always applied the penalties until the beginning of the player's next round if they used twf within a given round.

[Jackinthegreen]

As said in the rules, you only take the penalty when you use both weapons for the attack.  If you make an AoO you typically only use one weapon for it, thus your attack is not subject to the TWF penalties.

Also, take a look at the Double Hit feat.  That one allows you to use two weapons on an AoO and specifies that when you do you take the usual TWF penalties.

If TWF applied for the whole round it would have wording like Snap Kick or Power Attack.  For reference, Power Attack says:

Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

TWF does not say that, thus you do not take the TWF penalties when you aren't actually using both weapons.

[littha]

To me it reads like this at least: if you are wielding two weapons you can choose to take an extra attack, if you do you take the penalties.

Therefore if you don't choose to take the attacks you don't get the penalties, even if you are wielding multiple weapons. Splitting your normal iterative attacks between two weapons shouldn't have any penalty as you are gaining no actual benefit from doing so.

[NunoM]

Another question arose while reading your answers.
About 2): are the spikes considered as off-hand weapons for the purpose of damage?

I don't think so, but i'd like your take on it.

Again, thanks for the input. It's been really helpful!

[FlaminCows]

Another question arose while reading your answers.
About 2): are the spikes considered as off-hand weapons for the purpose of damage?

I don't think so, but i'd like your take on it.

This one, thankfully, is fully addressed in the Main 3.5 FAQ. In short, you decide when you attack whether to use armour spikes as a primary weapon or as an off-hand weapon. They can be used as either one.

When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon.

If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armour spikes.

Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon, you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see Table 8–10 in the PH). When using armor spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the offhand weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand.

You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armour spikes, you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and the armour spikes (see the description of spiked armour in Chapter 7 of the PH).

[NunoM]

^^^^
Sorry, i didn't make my question clear...

I meant this in the situation described in my OP. I'll rephrase it here:
2.1) When using my armor spikes for AoOs, after using a full-attack with a reach weapon in the same round, do they count as off-hand weapons?

Again, i don't think so, but looking at the sources FlamingCows provided, i might be ok with a houserule that assumes spikes as off-hand weapons such cases...

[Eagle of Fire]

Technically... You don't even hold or wield that weapon. They are armor spikes, and you wear them.

But the answer has been given to you. You could treat them as either depending of what you do. If you only use your spikes to do your AoO then it is just the same than if you attacked solely with them in the preceding turn.

Also note that the fact that you used whatever weapon in your turn have absolutely no impact on your AoO unless specifically mentioned in the weapon description. The attack you performed during your turn and your AoO are not linked together, unless again specifically mentioned by something else.

[Jackinthegreen]

Off-hand attacks are only used for TWF.  Since the only situation I can think of for an AoO being TWF is with Double Hit, there's one strike against the armor spikes being treated as TWF.

Also, as Eagle said, if you make an AoO with them you use them as a regular weapon, not as an off-hand weapon.  It's the FAQ so it might not hold up depending on how one views it, but it's there.

[Captnq]

^^^^
Sorry, i didn't make my question clear...

I meant this in the situation described in my OP. I'll rephrase it here:
2.1) When using my armor spikes for AoOs, after using a full-attack with a reach weapon in the same round, do they count as off-hand weapons?

Again, i don't think so, but looking at the sources FlamingCows provided, i might be ok with a houserule that assumes spikes as off-hand weapons such cases...

I have the strangest brain. I read your question and knew instantly where to find it.

Is a character wielding a two-handed reach weapon
(such as a longspear) and wearing spiked armor
threatening all squares within 10 feet? Assuming he has
Combat Reflexes, can he make an attack of opportunity
with his longspear and then with his armor spikes in the
same round?

A character wearing spiked armor threatens all squares
within his normal reach (5 feet away). If he also wields a
longspear, he would also threaten all squares 10 feet away.
Any time a character wielding more than one weapon is
allowed an attack of opportunity, he can use any weapon that
threatens the opponent who has provoked the attack. In this
case, imagine an enemy who charged the character and then
tried to disarm him. The charge attack would provoke an attack
of opportunity from the longspear as the enemy moved out of a
threatened square (in order to move adjacent to the character
and deliver the charge attack). Then, the disarm attempt would
provoke another attack of opportunity (assuming the enemy
didn’t have Improved Disarm). This attack of opportunity could
be made only with the armor spikes, since the longspear
doesn’t threaten an adjacent enemy.

Okay. Here's what you tell your DM.

Stop trying to make sense.

D20 rules are only internally consistent. When you try to apply real world physics to the game, it breaks down horribly. What he's saying makes sense, from a real world point of view. From a rule point of view, AoO are entirely seperate from whatever you do during your action.

I have a monk who has a threat range of 20 feet with here bare hands. How she punches someone 20 feet away makes no sense, but everything she has allows her to. She maxes out her AoO all the time. She also stacked up on cleave and two-handed fighting. When she's buffed by the spellcasers, she's just a blizzard of attacks. Nobody in the real world could do what she does in 6 seconds. It's impossible. But in the game, she's gotten over 20+ attacks in a round (against very stupid undead, mind you)

Your AoO attack has nothing to do with the rest of your round, expect in specific circumstances, like Power attack and that sort of thing.

[nijineko]

i have a dervish that currently has 9 attacks per round at 12th level. once he hits 18th, he will normally have 13 attacks per round, 14 if hasted, and once per day can make that 26 attacks per round. that is slightly over 4 hits per second. very very difficult to pull off in real life with just bare hands, let alone with trying to swing multiple swords that fast.

and that doesn't count AoOs.

[zook1shoe]

Aptitude fighters can get even uglier... Under the even the worst circumstances, you can get dozens of attacks per round with just a pair of weapons. Plus each attack is a trip, disarm, sunder, stun, daze, nauseate, sickening, blinding, and 2 extra attacks at enemies within 30ft.


I was going to point out the Double Hit feat also as a way to point out that your TWF penalties only apply when actively attacking with 2 weapons. But Jack beat me to it.


Everyone here has given you very good advice, and the best of them seems to be to just show him these rules.

Questioning his ideas of how the weapon combo SHOULD work, might put up more resistance towards him changing.

But use your judgement of him in your decision of which to you, and let us know how it goes!