Author Topic: Extractor [base]  (Read 17265 times)

Offline sirpercival

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Extractor [base]
« on: January 31, 2013, 02:37:28 PM »
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EXTRACTOR



The dream has become their reality.  Who am I to say otherwise?


You, an Extractor, have discovered a secret: your world is not real.  Every person you meet is a mental somnambulist, walking around unknowing within the Dreamscape, this colossal shared reverie of the Dream -- or perhaps they are simply projections of your subconscious which you interact with.  Who can say?

Those folk who are learned in the arcane arts, who have traveled the planes, believe that you are simply misguided, and manipulate the same metaphysical forces that everyone else does.  Some people just refuse to see what's in front of their collective face.

Because you know this secret, you can shape the world around you simply by what you can imagine.  You can cause bizarre, unexpected occurrences in the blink of an eye, or put more effort into designing an item of more permanent assistance.  You've learned to break into the vaults of your enemies' minds using layered dream, to discover their deepest secrets.

However, your subconscious is a fickle thing, just as likely to betray you to your enemies as aid you.

Adventures: An Extractor adventures for any number of reasons.  Some are mercenary thieves, assembling a team of assistants to perform chimeric espionage through carefully-designed dreamscapes.  Others might quest for a way to wake up from the Dream, or to reunite themselves with loved ones.  A number of Extractors adventure simply to push boundaries, to discover the furthest limits of their imagination, and of the Dreamscape.

Characteristics: An Extractor is an extremely adaptable character, capable of affecting the shared reality of the Dream in a number of different ways.  Depending on which soulmelds and maneuvers the Extractor prepares, he can be a deadly melee combatant, a dangerous ranged striker, or an out-of-combat swiss army knife.  And then, of course, there is Extraction, the method by which an Extractor can swipe a target's secrets out of his mind.

Alignment: Due to the... somewhat unethical nature of purloining information from other peoples' heads, few Extractors are lawful.  However, they run the gamut of the moral axis -- some Extractors seek ways to blackmail their opponents, while others may be looking for where the hostages have been hidden, to perform a rescue.

Religion: Most Extractors do not worship gods, believing them to be mere constructs of the Dream (though powerful ones).  However, the more religious among them tend to render obeisance to deities of dream, knowledge, secrets, thieves, and trickery.

Background: Becoming an extractor requires a surprising amount of training.  One must learn to manipulate dreams in a number of different ways, both short term and long term.  Extraction requires schooling in at least 6 different skills, usually 8, with other skills being quite useful as well. 

There are no academies for Extraction -- almost all training is done via apprenticeship.  A skilled Extractor will look for young recruits who show the right blend of skills and ambition, and introduce them to the heady, dangerous excitement of extraction.  Prospective Extractors often become addicted to the pure creation of the dreamscape.  However, learning about the Dream can be somewhat traumatizing...

Races: Though all creatures are constructs or inhabitants of the shared Dreamspace, the real work is done by dreams-within-dreams.  Therefore, only races who are able to dream can become Extractors.  Humans in particular have the right mix of ambition, intelligence, and creativity to become Extractors, but halflings, half-elves, and lesser planetouched will often study the somnambulant science as well.

Other Classes: An Extractor can get along well with almost anyone; every creature of consequence can be useful in the Dream.  However, they blend most easily with skillful classes such as bard, rogue, and factotum.

Role: The Extractor is primarily a skillful utility character, adaptable to almost any situation.  Using inspiration, soulmelds, and maneuvers, they can be very effective combatants, though they fall behind dedicated front-liners.   However, Extractors tend to gravitate towards positions of leadership in the party.  They would much rather give orders than take them, though they recognize and value good counsel.

Adaptation: An Extractor could be changed to a more traditional psychic thief if a campaign setting cannot support the Dream thematically, or the Lucid Dreaming mechanics.  In such a case, the abilities could be restructured to be based on psionics.  Or, an Extractor could be a creature touched by the lower planes, warping reality around him through the force of his personality and constructing elaborate visions and delusions to corrupt his enemies to darkness.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Extractors have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Controlling the dreamscape requires enormous willpower and physical fortitude, and so an Extractor needs Wisdom and Constitution to be most effective.  Strength is also important, as many of the Extractor's maneuvers entail melee attacks.  Intelligence, Dexterity, and Charisma are useful for many of an Extractor's important skills.
Alignment: Any, though lawful alignments are rare.
Hit Die: d8
Starting Age: As rogue.
Starting Gold: As rogue.

Class Skills
The Extractor's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana, Architecture & Engineering, Dungeoneering, The Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Lucid Dreaming (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (none), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Extractor


Level
Base
Attack
Bonus

Fort
Save

Ref
Save

Will
Save


Inspiration


Special


Soulmelds


Essentia

Chakra
Binds
1st+0+0+2+22Inspiration, awakened defense, subliminal knowledge110
2nd+1+0+3+33Awakened essence, fugue state (1 maneuver), fugue stance210
3rd+2+1+3+33Chakra bind (crown), extraction221
4th+3+1+4+43Impose will, lucid projection 20%321
5th+3+1+4+44Chakra bind (feet, hands), fugue state (2 maneuvers)331
6th+4+2+5+54Awakened offense332
7th+5+2+5+54Awakened capacity, fugue state (3 maneuvers)442
8th+6/+1+2+6+65Improved extraction, lucid projection 40%452
9th+6/+1+3+6+65Chakra bind (arms, brow, shoulders)452
10th+7/+2+3+7+75Fugue state (4 maneuvers)563
11th+8/+3+3+7+76Contagious awakening573
12th+9/+4+4+8+86Fugue state (5 maneuvers), lucid projection 60%573
13th+9/+4+4+8+86Greater extraction683
14th+10/+5+4+9+97Chakra bind (throat, waist)694
15th+11/+6/+1+5+9+97Fugue state (6 maneuvers), we need to go deeper6104
16th+12/+7/+2+5+10+107Awakened transcendence, lucid projection 80%7114
17th+12/+7/+2+5+10+108Fugue state (7 maneuvers)7124
18th+13/+8/+3+6+11+118Supreme extraction7135
19th+14/+9/+4+6+11+118Chakra bind (heart)8145
20th+15/+10/+5+6+12+1210Dream disruption, fugue state (8 maneuvers), lucid projection 100%8165

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Extractor.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: An Extractor is proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the falchion, scimitar, short sword, and one exotic weapon of his choice.  Extractors are also proficient with light armor and with shields (but not tower shields).

Dreamshaping: When a dreamer Awakens, learning the difference between active and passive participation in the Dream, he begins to shape the Dream around him in noticeable ways.  He understands that Incarnum, which others believe to be the residual soul energy derived from all creatures which ever have been and will be, is instead the raw material of the Dream, which he can mold to his specifications. 

An Extractor can shape incarnum soulmelds, which are drawn from the Extractor soulmeld list below.  He knows and can shape any soulmeld from this list.  The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Extractor soulmeld is 10 + number of points of essentia invested in the soulmeld + the Extractor's Wisdom modifier. His meldshaper level is equal to his Extractor level.

An Extractor can shape only a certain number of soulmelds per day.  His base daily allotment is given on the table above; the maximum number of soulmelds that an Extractor can have shaped simultaneously is equal to his Constitution score minus 10, or the number of soulmelds allowed for his level, whichever is lower.  At 1st level, he can shape one soulmeld at a time (assuming he has a Constitution score of at least 11).  As he advances in level, he can shape an increasing number of soulmelds.

At 1st level, an Extractor also gains access to his personal pool of essentia, which can be invested into his soulmelds to increase their power. An Extractor's essentia pool's size is shown on the table above. The maximum quantity of essentia that can be invested in any single soulmeld is given in Magic of Incarnum, table 2.1.  Each round as a swift action, an Extractor can reallocate his essentia investments in his soulmelds if he wishes.  An Extractor does not study or prepare soulmelds in advance, but must have a good night's rest and must meditate for 1 hour to shape his soulmelds for the day.

Inspiration: An Extractor must be adaptable, able to meet any situation that he might encounter in the Dreamscape with insight and creativity, even when he isn't properly prepared.  To represent this training, an Extractor gains inspiration points that he can spend to activate his abilities.  At the beginning of each encounter, he gains a number of inspiration points determined by his level, as shown on the table above.

Awakened Defense (Ex): An Extractor's preternatural awareness of the flow of Dream around him grants him uncanny defenses against those which try to attack him.  He may spend an inspiration point as a free action (even when it isn't his turn) to gain an insight bonus to Armor Class equal to his Wisdom modifier for 1 round.  He can use this ability even when wearing medium or heavier armor, but no more than once per round.

Subliminal Knowledge (Ex): By connecting to a fundamental reality beyond the Dream, an Extractor can gain insight into the laws which govern his present reality.  This grants him ability beyond that which the non-Awakened normally possess.  By spending an inspiration point as a free action (even when it isn't his turn), an Extractor can make a Lucid Dreaming check to gain an insight bonus (as shown on the table below) to the next skill check within 1 round, as long as he has at least 1 rank in that skill.  He cannot use this ability while performing an Extraction (but see Improved Extraction, below).

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Awakened Essence (Ex): An Extractor of 2nd level or higher has learned to control his surroundings, drawing upon the Dreamscape to gain additional power and resources when necessary.  At any time (even if it isn't his turn), he can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1 temporary point of essentia, which he may invest immediately.  This temporary essentia lasts for 1 round.

Fugue State (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, an Extractor learns to briefly dissociate himself with his normal identity, granting him unusual and fearsome power over the Dreamscape.  By spending 1 inspiration point, he can initiate a martial maneuver that he has readied.

At the start of each day, the Extractor chooses and readies a number of maneuvers from the Infinite Shore discipline based on his Extractor level.  He can choose one maneuver at 2nd level, and additional maneuvers as shown on the table above.  The maximum level of maneuver he can use is equal to half his class level, rounded up, though he can only ready one maneuver of his maximum level.  His initiator level equals his Extractor level (plus half his levels in non-initiating classes, as normal).  He need not meet the prerequisites (other than minimum initiator level) for the maneuvers he chooses.  He begins each encounter with all of his maneuvers readied.

When the Extractor rests for 8 hours, he readies new maneuvers, and loses any unexpended maneuvers from the previous day, though he can select the same maneuver on consecutive days. The Extractor cannot ready the same maneuver multiple times to use it more than once during the same encounter.

Fugue Stance (Su): A small part of a 2nd-level Extractor's subconscious remains disconnected from the Dream even when he interacts with it normally on a conscious level.  When readying his maneuvers for the day, the Extractor may choose to reduce his inspiration pool by 1 for the rest of the day. If he does so, he chooses one Infinite Shore stance for which he meets the initiator level prerequisite.  He may leave and enter that stance freely throughout the day, using the normal rules for stances.

Chakra Binds: At 3rd level, an Extractor can bind soulmelds to his chakras, granting him new powers based on the soulmeld and the chakra chosen. Binding a soulmeld to a chakra closes the body slot associated with that chakra (see Chakras, page 50 of Magic of Incarnum), so that one cannot also benefit from a magic item worn on the body slot associated with that chakra.

The number of chakra binds that an Extractor can have active at any one time depends on his level (see the Chakra Binds column on the table above). At 3rd level, he can bind a soulmeld to his crown chakra. Beginning at 5th level, the Extractor can bind soulmelds to his feet or hands chakras. At 9th level, he can bind soulmelds to his arms, brow, or shoulders chakras. At 14th level, he can bind soulmelds to your throat or waist chakras. At 19th level, he can bind a soulmeld to his heart chakra.  He never gains the ability to bind soulmelds to his soul chakra (though he may do so via an Epic feat).

Extraction (Su): Upon reaching 3rd level, an Extractor is practiced enough at controlling the Dreamscape that he can begin to attempt his namesake: extraction.  See below for extraction rules.

Impose Will (Ex): When an Extractor reaches 4th level, he learns to impose his will on the Dreamscape around him.  As a standard action which provokes attacks of opportunity, the Extractor can make a Lucid Dreaming check to regain spent inspiration points as shown on the table below.  This ability cannot raise your pool of inspiration points above your normal maximum.  However, doing so comes with a risk: whenever he uses this ability, there is a 10% chance per point of regained inspiration that he becomes trapped in his own subconscious for a long subjective time, though he returns to his current situation when little actual time has passed. If this happens, the Extractor becomes exhausted for 1 round, even if he is normally immune to exhaustion (though the exhaustion disappears at the beginning of his next turn); in addition, he takes 2 points each of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma damage.

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Lucid Projection (Su): An Extractor's subconscious is a powerful thing, able to affect the world around him even when he doesn't intend.  Often the result is helpful, but other times it can sabotage the Extractor's plans, as his mental skeletons escape the closet.

Upon achieving 4th level, an Extractor gains a Lucid Projection, which functions as an Extractor cohort of his Extractor level -3.  However, the Projection does not exist all the time.  At the beginning of each encounter, there is a 20% chance that the Lucid Projection appears, in a random open square up to 100 feet away from the Extractor (line of sight or effect is not required).  Appearance chance and position are rolled by the DM.

When the Lucid Projection appears, it has all the knowledge of the situation that the Extractor has, and is initially Friendly towards the Extractor and his allies.  However the Projection is fickle; each round that the Projection exists, the Extractor must make a Will save (DC 13 + the Projection's HD + 2 times the number of successful saves) or the Projection turns Hostile towards the Extractor and his allies for the remainder of the encounter.

Once the Lucid Projection has appeared, it remains for the duration of the encounter or until killed, at which point it disappears.  The chance that the Projection will appear increases by 20% every 4 levels after 4th; at 20th level, the Projection appears every encounter.

Awakened Offense (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, an Extractor learns to use his preternatural abilities in more aggressive ways.  He may use his Subliminal Knowledge ability to gain a bonus on his next attack roll within 1 round instead of his next skill check.

Awakened Capacity (Ex): At 7th level, an Extractor realizes that the only thing which limits him is his own preconceptions.  As part of reallocating his essentia, he can spend an inspiration point as a free action to increase the capacity of one of his soulmelds by 1 for one round.  This ability can be used no more often than once per round.

Improved Extraction (Su): When an Extractor achieves 8th level, he has gained significant experience at extraction.  When obscuring the purpose of the dream, he may use his Subliminal Knowledge ability to improve his Bluff check; in addition, he reduces the time requirement to design a dreamscape of a given complexity by one category.

Contagious Awakening (Ex): Staring at 11th level, an Extractor can impart some insight into the existence and workings of the Dream to others.  Whenever he uses his Awakened Defense, Awakened Offense, or Subliminal Knowledge abilities, he may spend an additional inspiration point to have the bonus affect all allies within 10 feet.  In the case of Awakened Offense and Subliminal Knowledge, each ally gains the bonus to the next appropriate roll they make within 1 round (the skill, if applicable, must be the same skill that the Extractor modifies).

Greater Extraction (Su): An Extractor of 13th level or higher is a master of extraction.  When drawing a target into a shared dream, the Extractor reduces the penalties for distance to the target by half, and may use his Subliminal Knowledge ability to improve his Gather Information, Disguise, or Forgery check while acquiring the information.

We need to go deeper (Su): At 15th level, an Extractor has learned that sometimes, one layer of dream is not enough.  He must be able to go deeper, to add another layer when necessary.  He can begin to perform a double-layer extraction; see Extraction Rules below for details.

Awakened Transcendence (Ex): Beginning at 16th level, an Extractor can use his awareness of the Dream to achieve incredible heights of prowess.  As a free action (even when it's not his turn, but no more often than once per round), he can spend 1 inspiration point to treat one of his essentia receptacles as filled with essentia to its maximum capacity for 1 round.

Supreme Extraction (Su): By 18th level, an Extractor has reached the pinnacle of extraction.  He may draw a target into a shared dream with no penalties for distance; he reduces the time requirement to design a dreamscape of a given complexity by an additional category; and he may use his Subliminal Knowledge ability to improve any skill checks while performing an extraction.

Dream Disruption (Su): Upon reaching 20th level, an Extractor can control the Dream in ways normally reserved for transient dreamscapes.  By spending a full-round action, the Extractor can destabilize the Dreamscape within a radius equal to 10 feet times his Wisdom modifier.

Within the destabilized area, the substance of the plane becomes raw, wild dreamstuff.  The planar traits match that of Limbo, but with bounded size and with no Chaos-alignment (i.e., Subjective Directional Gravity, Highly Morphic, Sporadic Element-Dominant, and Wild Magic).  Controlling the dreamstuff is identical to controlling parts of Limbo.

The destabilization slowly heals over time as the overarching identity of the Dream reasserts itself.  The disrupted area shrinks at the rate of 10 feet per hour, until it disappears entirely.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 06:23:25 PM by sirpercival »
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2013, 02:38:02 PM »
Extraction
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Double-layer extraction
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« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 04:36:05 PM by sirpercival »
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2013, 02:38:17 PM »
Extractor Soulmelds

Soulmeld List
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Soulmeld Descriptions
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 11:27:03 AM by sirpercival »
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2013, 03:02:12 PM »
Reserved for posterity.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2013, 03:14:24 PM »
OK, port is done.

The current extraction rules are functional, but not exactly what I want.  I'm trying to rewrite them to make it more like a minigame, more organic & interactive -- instead of "roll these skill checks & get your information", something tactical, that you roleplay out.

Here are my current notes:
(click to show/hide)


Help??
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2013, 05:10:47 PM »
Just looking it over for now. Noticed this:
Quote
The Extractor cannot ready the same maneuver multiple times to use it more than once during the same day.
Shouldn't that be encounter?

Quote
Upon achieving 4th level, an Extractor gains a Lucid Projection, which functions as a cohort of his Extractor level -3.  However, the Projection does not exit all the time.
:P And why is it his ECL-3, instead of -2 like a normal cohort? I think you should play an Extractor, and have your new character be his (or her) Projection. :D
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 05:21:58 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2013, 05:19:22 PM »
Just looking it over for now. Noticed this:
Quote
The Extractor cannot ready the same maneuver multiple times to use it more than once during the same day.
Shouldn't that be encounter?
Yes, thank you!
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2013, 05:22:53 PM »
Still looking through this myself. I'm actually starting with the soulmelds, for some reason. I haven't actually gotten very far, yet.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2013, 08:50:32 PM »
Quote
Upon achieving 4th level, an Extractor gains a Lucid Projection, which functions as a cohort of his Extractor level -3.  However, the Projection does not exit all the time.
:P And why is it his ECL-3, instead of -2 like a normal cohort? I think you should play an Extractor, and have your new character be his (or her) Projection. :D
Just saw your edit.  Fixed the typo.

It's extractor level -3 because you get it at level 4, so it's set at 1st level there.

Still looking through this myself. I'm actually starting with the soulmelds, for some reason. I haven't actually gotten very far, yet.
(click to show/hide)
Fixed & clarified on all counts.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2013, 09:54:30 PM »
Bracers of Projection (Arms): Same problem. You have to declare your target (see the second sentence) before you get the benefit. Your target must be within reach, thus negating the benefit.

Brooch of Stars (Heart): By the time you get this, you'll be making the save on a 1. Just say you take half damage from attacks and be done with it, removing the risk of any the issue (which can still exist with certain Improved Evasion abilities, a Ring of Evasion, and who knows how many homebrew abilities).
   On a related note, this effect has two particular things I hate in its mechanics. Fixed save DCs, and making a save against your own ability to impede your opponents' attacks.
   Fixed DCs are bad because eventually you just make them on a 1.
   Saves against your own ability are weird, counterintuitive, and deny the standard mechanics. Your save DC boosters apply (working against you), but your opponents have no method to make their own attack form more effective.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2013, 10:00:11 PM »
Bracers of Projection (Arms): Same problem. You have to declare your target (see the second sentence) before you get the benefit. Your target must be within reach, thus negating the benefit.
Alright, how do I make this work the way I intend?

Quote
Brooch of Stars (Heart): By the time you get this, you'll be making the save on a 1. Just say you take half damage from attacks and be done with it, removing the risk of any the issue (which can still exist with certain Improved Evasion abilities, a Ring of Evasion, and who knows how many homebrew abilities).
   On a related note, this effect has two particular things I hate in its mechanics. Fixed save DCs, and making a save against your own ability to impede your opponents' attacks.
   Fixed DCs are bad because eventually you just make them on a 1.
   Saves against your own ability are weird, counterintuitive, and deny the standard mechanics. Your save DC boosters apply (working against you), but your opponents have no method to make their own attack form more effective.
Hm.  I'd still like there to be a save.  Maybe a Ref save vs their attack roll?
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2013, 10:33:58 PM »
Bracers of Projection (Arms): Same problem. You have to declare your target (see the second sentence) before you get the benefit. Your target must be within reach, thus negating the benefit.
Alright, how do I make this work the way I intend?

Whenever you would make a melee attack, before declaring the target of your attack, you can choose a single subject as a free action. Make a Lucid Dreaming check against a DC equal to the subject's AC. If you succeed, your reach increases by 10 feet for this melee attack, but only for the purpose of attacking the subject. Even on a failure, you can still choose to attack another valid target you threaten.

Quote
Quote
Brooch of Stars (Heart): By the time you get this, you'll be making the save on a 1. Just say you take half damage from attacks and be done with it, removing the risk of any the issue (which can still exist with certain Improved Evasion abilities, a Ring of Evasion, and who knows how many homebrew abilities).
   On a related note, this effect has two particular things I hate in its mechanics. Fixed save DCs, and making a save against your own ability to impede your opponents' attacks.
   Fixed DCs are bad because eventually you just make them on a 1.
   Saves against your own ability are weird, counterintuitive, and deny the standard mechanics. Your save DC boosters apply (working against you), but your opponents have no method to make their own attack form more effective.
Hm.  I'd still like there to be a save.  Maybe a Ref save vs their attack roll?

Gonna fail. Attack bonuses outscale saves.

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2013, 10:40:57 PM »
Bracers of Projection (Arms): Same problem. You have to declare your target (see the second sentence) before you get the benefit. Your target must be within reach, thus negating the benefit.
Alright, how do I make this work the way I intend?

Whenever you would make a melee attack, before declaring the target of your attack, you can choose a single subject as a free action. Make a Lucid Dreaming check against a DC equal to the subject's AC. If you succeed, your reach increases by 10 feet for this melee attack, but only for the purpose of attacking the subject. Even on a failure, you can still choose to attack another valid target you threaten.
Thank you! lol.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Brooch of Stars (Heart): By the time you get this, you'll be making the save on a 1. Just say you take half damage from attacks and be done with it, removing the risk of any the issue (which can still exist with certain Improved Evasion abilities, a Ring of Evasion, and who knows how many homebrew abilities).
   On a related note, this effect has two particular things I hate in its mechanics. Fixed save DCs, and making a save against your own ability to impede your opponents' attacks.
   Fixed DCs are bad because eventually you just make them on a 1.
   Saves against your own ability are weird, counterintuitive, and deny the standard mechanics. Your save DC boosters apply (working against you), but your opponents have no method to make their own attack form more effective.
Hm.  I'd still like there to be a save.  Maybe a Ref save vs their attack roll?

Gonna fail. Attack bonuses outscale saves.
How about "DC = 10 + the amount the attack roll beat your AC by"?
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2013, 10:41:31 PM »
{scrubbed}

damn quote vs edit...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 07:31:57 AM by sirpercival »
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2013, 10:43:17 PM »
I like the class overall, but much of what you have written up in the Extraction material is already in the Lucid Dreaming skill itself (as I know you noticed after writing this... :P ). The information in the spoiler is a step in the right direction. The main difference between just someone with ranks in Lucid Dreaming and what this guy is doing is the actual information gathering part, right? So the mechanics of Extraction should definitely focus on that, and only mention briefly the parts that just use the skill's mechanics (if at all).

In the movie, they did the trick with the safe. I think that's great, and should definitely be included. This is basically letting you use your Open Lock skill instead of Bluff to get the target to give you some information. All of the other parts of the setup just facilitate that. So how about just having it work like that (use Open Lock instead of Bluff to trick the target into "giving" you the information you want)?

You could allow the same kind of thing with other skills, as alternatives to get the information.

And why the penalty on the check to draw them into the dream based on distance? Do you think that's something that should be included in the skill itself? It seems very odd that a class specialized in using a skill would be worse at some aspects of it than someone who didn't take the class, but instead just used the skill normally...
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2013, 11:20:52 PM »
How about "DC = 10 + the amount the attack roll beat your AC by"?

Unless you're dumping AC and relying on miss chances or something, we're back into a really complex way of saying auto-success. Attack bonuses usually wind up hitting on a 1, but not so much on a -10, except for touch attacks from non-gishes (gishes with touch attacks tend towards hitting on a -20 instead). Plus, did I mention that it's really complex to figure out the odds? A whole cartload of different modifiers on different scales designed for different things, all mashed together.

Offline veekie

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2013, 12:27:31 AM »
Easier, just do the DC as normal, 10+(1/2 BAB)+ Stat.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2013, 07:35:10 AM »
I like the class overall, but much of what you have written up in the Extraction material is already in the Lucid Dreaming skill itself (as I know you noticed after writing this... :P ). The information in the spoiler is a step in the right direction. The main difference between just someone with ranks in Lucid Dreaming and what this guy is doing is the actual information gathering part, right? So the mechanics of Extraction should definitely focus on that, and only mention briefly the parts that just use the skill's mechanics (if at all).

In the movie, they did the trick with the safe. I think that's great, and should definitely be included. This is basically letting you use your Open Lock skill instead of Bluff to get the target to give you some information. All of the other parts of the setup just facilitate that. So how about just having it work like that (use Open Lock instead of Bluff to trick the target into "giving" you the information you want)?

You could allow the same kind of thing with other skills, as alternatives to get the information.
Yeah, that's kind of the idea.  I want this to be a sort of mental combat system, but using skill checks instead of attack rolls & crap.  The idea is to make it something you actually get to roleplay out.

Quote
And why the penalty on the check to draw them into the dream based on distance? Do you think that's something that should be included in the skill itself? It seems very odd that a class specialized in using a skill would be worse at some aspects of it than someone who didn't take the class, but instead just used the skill normally...
I dunno... the lore goes both ways.  I was including it to kind of represent the whole "we have to be close to you to hook you up to the machine" thing... but in, for example, Tel'ara'rhiod, you can find someone's dreams from anywhere and pull them into dream shards.  So I'm kinda torn.

Easier, just do the DC as normal, 10+(1/2 BAB)+ Stat.
Hm, yeah that's better.  Done!
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2013, 08:33:32 AM »
Quote
I dunno... the lore goes both ways.  I was including it to kind of represent the whole "we have to be close to you to hook you up to the machine" thing... but in, for example, Tel'ara'rhiod, you can find someone's dreams from anywhere and pull them into dream shards.  So I'm kinda torn.
I went for the first one, obviously.  :P It makes sense in the movie to have to be close, but in D&D it doesn't, really. The existence of souls and minds outside of their bodies is well established, even in specific regard to dreaming.

I did make the difficulty dependent on how well you know them, though:
Quote
Locate Dreamer/Dreamwalker: A Dreamwalker may cast their mind across the Plane of Dreams to find the dream of a specific individual. If the individual that they are searching for is within the same Dreamscape as them, then the DC for this check is only 10 plus the number of dream levels separating them.

If they are in separate dreams, then the DC is based on the familiarity the Dreamwalker (the person making the check) has for the Dreamer (the person they're trying to find). If they are intimate friend, then the DC is only 15. For close friends, the DC is 17. For less well known friends and associates, the DC is 20. For someone they've seen only once (including via Scrying), the DC is 25. For someone they've only heard of, the DC is 30.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 08:37:48 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline veekie

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Re: Extractor [base]
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2013, 11:54:21 AM »
I dunno... the lore goes both ways.  I was including it to kind of represent the whole "we have to be close to you to hook you up to the machine" thing... but in, for example, Tel'ara'rhiod, you can find someone's dreams from anywhere and pull them into dream shards.  So I'm kinda torn.
For T'A'R,  you need to be physically close or more importantly, spiritually close to find a particular person/dream, unless the dream is particularly strong or noticeable in some other way. So it's twofold, you have to be physically near them unless you have a pre-existing close relationship or some other connection.
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