[3.P] Item that doubles one physical ability score

[ImperatorK]

How much could it cost? How much would be fair/reasonable?

[betrayor]

The one example of what you want I have seen it in the Deities and Demigods,
It was Thor's Belt and it double his strength,and it is  an artifact with no price given.....
Thus I would say that such an item should be at least Epic and therefore  would have a price over 200000.....

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Using the bonus^2 x 1000 formula, a +20 item would cost 400,000. Given that a score doubling item would most likely give at least that large a bonus (why bother with such a powerful item if your score wasn't already maxxed?) much less than that seems undercosted.

[Gribel]

Keep in mind that actual strength (carrying capacity) increases exponentially with the strength score. That means that no matter how strong you already are, +10 strength makes you 4 times stronger.

[ImperatorK]

Thor's belt is actually what made me make this thread. In my games standard magic items can be much more powerful than in standard D&D, Epic items don't cost 10 times more so they're more available (but still rare, of course) and thus items that are called "artifacts" are even more powerful.
As a comparison, an item of +12 Str, Dex and Con costs (using PF guidelines for making custom items) - 144k + 108k + 72k = 324k
Just +12 in one ability is 144k.

[Bauglir]

Such an item is, realistically, unpriceable. What you'd have to do is include a cap on the maximum bonus it can actually give you, and then discount it by a few thousand GP relative to that bonus. Alternatively, you'd need some sort of investment of XP or something else that gives you diminishing returns - otherwise, you're destroying one of the very few balancing assumptions in 3.5 Magic Items, which is that to keep up your rate of benefits, you need to invest more GP at every step. Your absolute minimum price should be for that of a +10 item, since an ability score of 10 is average, but that's already obscenely low. The best you could do is an item that siphons out an appropriate quantity of GP from your wealth based on its current bonus, and spits out an appropriate amount if that score ever goes down.

There is no way to put a fair price on this item, as presented in the OP, in an environment that even resembles the current magic item set. It's simply impossible.

[ImperatorK]

How about 500k?

[Nytemare3701]

The best you could do is an item that siphons out an appropriate quantity of GP from your wealth based on its current bonus, and spits out an appropriate amount if that score ever goes down.

Maybe make it a pseudo-legacy item, reserving XP equal to 1/5th the current item's worth, rising as the item gives additional stats.

[Bauglir]

How about 500k?

You would immediately purchase it instead of a +22 item as soon as you had the money for it, since it can be safely assumed your base score is higher than 22 by the time you have that kind of cash.

There might be something to an item that gives you an enhancement bonus equal to your score, not counting any other bonuses other than (perhaps) racial bonuses. Such an item would have to be priced such that it does not come into play until after the standard formula yields a bonus higher than your unmodified ability score, assuming you invest heavily in that ability score (start with an 18, every level up point goes in, etc.) That's just me futzing about with a possible way to balance the poorly explained idea in the OP.

But that brings me to another point. This item is just inherently a bad idea. It does something another item with an existing place in the paradigm does (give an ability score bonus), but it's an inherently broken version. Either it's incredibly good and you'd never buy the normal item (in which case, why not simply buff your PCs?), or it's strictly inferior and you'd never buy it (in which case, it adds nothing to your game).

I know it's frustrating to have people telling you your thread questions are bad ideas, when you're asking for an implementation method and not an assessment of merit, but this is a bad idea. Your request for a fair/reasonable price is one that cannot be met, and telling you that is not off-topic. You'll have to revise the premise.

[ImperatorK]

Sorry, but I'm only interested in an answer to the OP. I'd rather get no posts than posts that say "You're doing it wrong", thank you.

[Keldar]

Fair/reasonable in light of your mentioned house rule?  Priceless Artifact still sounds about right.  (And a game like yours its a better fit for player use than in the RAW.  Makes a nice niche for major artifacts too.)  Bauglir nailed it, any price you set for it will either make it or the ordinary items worthless if you make it a standard (Epic) item.  Its quite impossible to set a fair or reasonable price for it since it directly competes with a standard item.  Moreover, there isn't a single item in all of 3E land that functions in such a way giving us no good basis for comparison other than Thor's (priceless) Artifact belt.  It would be easier to price out an item that gave a <Foo> bonus to a score!

But if you must price it, just pick a number and live with it.  (What level would you be fine with a player just grabbing one with starting wealth?  Set it at 1/4 the starting for that.  Anyone starting over 22nd could have one at 500k.)  Its your game, you're the one that has to cope with the ramifications, not us.   

[awaken_D_M_golem]

(as usual just bear with me)

So it's rather easy to figure the normal magic item
value of a Str of 1 doubled, or a 2 doubled, etc.

And an item that was able to do a small part of
Polymorph, that otherwise "only" doubled 1 stat,
is worth lower than a 4*7*2000 item; much lower.
PAO adds Int into the mix, but is permanent if
done right = 8*15*10 and a thanks for the service.
Again if it did 1 score only, it'd be cheaper.

Say you priced it at 1 casting of a custom 9th
level spell, to fit in Wis and Cha, and the extra
CLs necessary for cranking up the score a lot
more, is also a custom 9th level spell.
It's in the ballpark of Poly+PAO and obviously
not in the ballpark of Wish (oops).

Hey the Omni trick is what a level 4 Arty
= infinite score, and a punpun smiley face.

That's the range I'm coming up with.

[ImperatorK]

What level would you be fine with a player just grabbing one with starting wealth?

Generally I try to follow the guidelines:

Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.

That would make it level 21st or 22nd at the earliest (depending what WBL table I'll use). More likely 26th or more.
If a player wanted to spend half of his starting wealth on a single item that requires additional investment to really shine then that's his choice... and risk.

[Bauglir]

Sorry, but I'm only interested in an answer to the OP. I'd rather get no posts than posts that say "You're doing it wrong", thank you.

The answer to the OP is that it can't be done, just as the answer to "(-1)^(1/2) = " is that it's imaginary. I can't help you if you're asking for the impossible, and I don't particularly care what you want. You ask a question about game balance on a game balance forum, you're going to get responses discussing the balance implications of your question. You can clarify your question, revise it in light of your responses, and otherwise attempt to guide discussion toward the end you're actually attempting to reach, but I'm giving you exactly what you asked for. It's all well and good to request that people respect your wishes as OP, but context is everything, and this board is not one where you can reasonably expect people to ignore an interesting idea (which this certainly is, regardless of its merits) if their opinion on it differs from yours.

In short, if you aren't prepared to hear answers you don't like, don't ask questions.

What you can do is list a few more constraints on what the item actually does - if it flat-out doubles your ability score, as the OP indicates, it's entirely impossible to price fairly because it offers an unprecedented force multiplier that is as inherently unfair as a circle is round. This is because it will multiply all of the bonuses you can pay more GP for, leading to a truly monstrous score, making it an additional benefit rather than an alternative.

If it only multiplies your base ability score, and does it in the form of an enhancement bonus, then it's just a bad idea that adds nothing meaningful to the game, but it can be priced "fairly", which is what you're interested in, so here goes.

A fair price would be the price at which 15% of WBL equals a character's base ability score squared, times 1000. The character in question should be one who began with an 18 in the score, a +2 racial bonus, and has put every point gained from leveling up into that ability score. I don't have the ELH right now, and actually calculating this price is more effort than I want to invest, but you're free to. At every level below this, the item is too good, and at every level above, it's too bad, but at this exact level it's fair.

[rasmuswagner]

As a comparison, an item of +12 Str, Dex and Con costs (using PF guidelines for making custom items) - 144k + 108k + 72k = 324k
Just +12 in one ability is 144k.

You're certainly doing that wrong. It's 144k+144k*1.5+144k*1.5, 576k total. There's even an existing item, the belt of physical perfection, to check against.

[ImperatorK]

In short, if you aren't prepared to hear answers you don't like, don't ask questions.

Conversely, if you're not going to answer questions that are actually asked, don't answer. It's that simple.

You're certainly doing that wrong.

Actually I don't.

Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

If it only multiplies your base ability score, and does it in the form of an enhancement bonus, then it's just a bad idea that adds nothing meaningful to the game, but it can be priced "fairly", which is what you're interested in, so here goes.

A fair price would be the price at which 15% of WBL equals a character's base ability score squared, times 1000. The character in question should be one who began with an 18 in the score, a +2 racial bonus, and has put every point gained from leveling up into that ability score. I don't have the ELH right now, and actually calculating this price is more effort than I want to invest, but you're free to. At every level below this, the item is too good, and at every level above, it's too bad, but at this exact level it's fair.

Was that so hard? That's all I was asking for. Thank you.
Not exactly what I was asking for, but when it's either that or "It's impossibru!" then I have to take what I get.

[Bauglir]

I mean, yeah, of course it's not actually what you asked. I was answering a tangentially related question that might have been what you were asking, but if it really was what you wanted, then you just need to work on clarity in the OP, because you didn't give enough information. The answer to the question you asked is still, "It's impossibru", even if that's not the answer you want. You seem to have this bizarre notion that "X is impossible" is not an answer to "How do you do X?"

Go to an engineering forum and ask how to build a perpetual motion machine. Go to a mathematics forum and ask for the exact value of pi, represented as a ratio of two integers. You'll get similar responses. If you ask a question that doesn't make sense, the answer is "Your question can't be answered". Learn to accept that.

[ImperatorK]

You're kinda contradicting yourself there.

[Bauglir]

How so? I'd be happy to resolve the apparent contradiction.

[ImperatorK]

You say it's impossible to answer, yet you yourself managed to answer.