Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[DonQuixote]

Man, if I had any idea how the spellshapers actually happened, I would be happy to just hand out the magic formula.  It basically grew out of my desire to be able to play a fire-based magic-user who was not objectively terrible, and sort of...ran away from me.  The elemental adept is what grew out of the original "pyromancer" class, and the Searing Flame circle is actually the oldest of them all.

The thing is, with a project like this, you have to be willing on some level to write abilities that you yourself would not be interested in.  I did the math at one point, and I would probably never choose to use one-third of the base classes, three-fifths of the circles, and seven-tenths of the prestige classes.  Approximately, that is--rounding occurred to bring you those figures.  Amusingly, the things that I like have historically been the ones to end up underpowered.

Start small.  Sketch out maybe a single class that uses a prototype of the system you want to build.  Very, very small-scale, though.  Don't try to get the whole thing put out at once.  What you need to do is establish how you want things to feel, then move on from there.  Once you know how the system is going to work, start making things more interesting and complicated.

[sirpercival]

I'm considering something also... I created a new magic system for my most recent PrC (the Ritual Warrior), and I'm thinking about expanding it into a base class and adding some Ritual feats, but I'm not sure how far to go with it.  Some playtesting would help too, as I really have no idea how the class will work in an actual game setting, and I'm hesitant to expand on the mechanics until I know they aren't broken.

[DonQuixote]

Really, all I can tell you is to keep fiddling with it until it feels right, then just run with it.  I really have very little idea of how balance works--it's only been fourteen months since I was introduced to the game.

Anyway, any comments or criticism on the new circles or prestige classes?  Or is it just too much to go through this quickly?

If you guys don't give me some errata to write soon, my brain is going to get bored and start coming up with new material. 

[Amechra]

Alright, I cast Silence and Machine Invisibility on the audience; I want you to release more material, my canine friend.

Thing is, I've not noticed any major problems with any of the classes at all, except for, of course, a couple of spelling errors (that I can't locate again, cause there are only about 5 that I've seen throughout the entirety of the material); damn it, man!

Though, may I ask to use this material for a campaign setting? It kinda helped inspire it (the idea was, "what would it be like if Initiating was wide-spread, and came BEFORE magic?" Then I added some Runelord's material.)

Though, in that case, I would have to screw around with Spellsages and all the PrCs that advance spellcasting; they would have to be altered to work with Shadowcasting or Binding (the only "actual" systems of magic; Shadowcasting drains Sanity, while pretty much all Pact-Magic users are part of their own sovereign nation and run the religious institutions all around the main continent (think the Vatican))...

[DonQuixote]

Argh, but if the audience can't speak, they can't provide feedback!  If they can't provide feedback, I can't improve things!  And, if I can't improve things, I'll explode!

Anyway, the spelling errors are unfindable because I went back in time and fixed them.  Went over all the Codex II stuff with a fine-toothed spellcheck, and I think I had already eliminated all of the Codex I typographical errors.

The campaign setting idea sounds neat, and has my full approval!  I'll see what I can throw together about shadowcasting, but I have a lot of work for the next week or so--so don't expect anything instantaneous.

[Amechra]

Well, it's the Binding stuff I'm worried about; spellcasting -> shadowcasting is actually fairly simple, with just a little bit of thematic tweaking necessary; Binding, however, requires a little... something different.

[DonQuixote]

Maybe give it the ability to bind vestiges for short periods?  You'd be able to bind one vestige of each level, but you'd only be able to bind each vestige for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifier, and never more than one at once.

I have no clue if that would work in any viable way at all.  Just spitballing.


Edit: On the topic of spellshaping material, I've decided to go full circle.  I will be adapting the first homebrew that I ever wrote to be a spellshaper/martial adept.

The current plan is for the class to have access to formulae from one circle--depending on the energy type of an individual's breath weapon--and maneuvers of the Tiger Claw discipline.  One formula will be recovered whenever you initiate a maneuver, and one maneuver will be recovered whenever you shape a formula or make a full attack.  Formulae and maneuvers will be readied in the same slots, meaning that you can choose to focus on one over the other.  The fact that the breath weapon has a recharge time, however, means that you're probably always going to want some maneuvers.

Instead of draconic auras, the class will receive a single spellshape aura, dependent on the circle to which an individual has access.

I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I want to keep draconic invocations on the table.  It might be too much.

A few other things are being shuffled around--the breath effects are gone, obviously, as is the sorcerous knack ability.  Stay tuned for me actually writing the blasted thing.

[Amechra]

Might make a Hexenhammer variant for the Binding...

And I'm glad to see that you are remaking an old class; I've been planning something similar for my old Librarian class...

May I suggest an optional ability to use Spell-shape attacks as a breath weapon? So you would fire a cone of Withering Hand, or something?

It would be as simple as converting it to a small cone/line, and replacing the attack roll with a reflex save.

Alternatively, just give them an at-will breath weapon, that they use instead of their spell-shape attack.

Or something.

[DonQuixote]

May I suggest an optional ability to use Spell-shape attacks as a breath weapon? So you would fire a cone of Withering Hand, or something?

It would be as simple as converting it to a small cone/line, and replacing the attack roll with a reflex save.

Alternatively, just give them an at-will breath weapon, that they use instead of their spell-shape attack.

Or something.

Guess that wasn't clear!  The breath weapon is going to function as a spellshape attack under the effect of the Sculpt Spellshape feat.  It's still going to be a 1d4 recharge time, though, so maneuvers are a thing.

Edit: For clarity, my notes as they exist now.  Warning, shorthand ahead.

(click to show/hide)

HD: d12
BAB: Full
Fort: Good
Ref: Poor
Will: Good
1 - 6 known, 4 prepared - 1 stance - 1 invocation - Claws, least invocations, spellshape breath weapon, totem dragon
2 - 7 known, 4 prepared - 2 stances - 1 invocation - Darkvision, totem aura
3 - 8 known, 5 prepared - 2 stances - 2 invocations -
4 - 9 known, 5 prepared - 2 stances - 2 invocations - Scales
5 - 10 known, 5 prepared - 3 stances - 2 invocations - Empowered breath
6 - 11 known, 6 prepared - 3 stances - 3 invocations - Bite attack, lesser invocations, wings
7 - 12 known, 6 prepared - 3 stances - 3 invocations - Blindsense
8 - 13 known, 7 prepared - 3 stances - 4 invocations -
9 - 14 known, 7 prepared - 4 stances - 4 invocations -
10 - 15 known, 7 prepared - 4 stances - 4 invocations - Lesser apotheosis
11 - 16 known, 8 prepared - 4 stances - 5 invocations - Greater invocations, tail slap
12 - 17 known, 8 prepared - 4 stances - 5 invocations -
13 - 18 known, 9 prepared - 4 stances - 6 invocations -
14 - 19 known, 9 prepared - 5 stances - 6 invocations - Frightful presence
15 - 20 known, 9 prepared - 5 stances - 6 invocations - Spell resistance
16 - 21 known, 10 prepared - 5 stances - 7 invocations - Dark invocations, wing slams
17 - 22 known, 10 prepared - 5 stances - 7 invocations - Timeless body
18 - 23 known, 11 prepared - 5 stances - 8 invocations -
19 - 24 known, 11 prepared - 5 stances - 8 invocations - Immunities
20 - 25 known, 12 prepared - 6 stances - 8 invocations - Dragonform, greater apotheosis


Maneuvers and Formulae
   - One circle of formulae, determined by your totem dragon
   - Tiger claw maneuvers
   - Same known and prepared/readied pool
   - Recover a formula whenever you initiate a maneuver
   - Recover a maneuver whenever you shape a formula or make a full attack

Draconic Invocations
   - As dragonfire adept, except for those that become unnecessary (such as draconic flight)

Spellshape breath weapon - Spellshape attack from circle of totem's energy type, in the form of a cone or line (as by the Sculpt Spellshape feat)
   - 1d4 round recharge time
   - Sculpt Spellshape cannot be applied to the breath weapon, BUT the breath weapon is treated as having had the feat applied for the purpose of metamagic feats that alter a sculpted spellshape.
   - You are treated as having the Sculpt Spellshape feat for the purpose of qualifying for metashaping feats
   - Can be modified with metabreath

Greater Apotheosis
   - Half-Dragon template

[Amechra]

I would like to say one thing...

Look up the Breath of Fire discipline, if you dare.

[DonQuixote]

I might look at it for class feature ideas--there's an idea, bringing back breath effects as modular modifications for your breath weapon, rather than specifically applied effects--but not as one of your options.  I really like the one-to-one feel, and I don't want to be mixing maneuvers with the spellshape attack.

If I do end up adding more options, it'll be:

One circle of formulae, determined by your breath weapon energy type.
One circle of formulae of your choice, all of which are reshaped (as by the Reshape Formula feat) to the circle associated with your breath weapon's energy type.

Tiger Claw maneuvers.
One discipline of your choice.

[DonQuixote]

Because I can, shorthand notes for another specialized base class that is kicking around in the back of my head.  Extremely fire-based.  Sort of an extrapolation of the stoichen elemental adept, specified for fire, then mixed with some other stuff that was kicking around.

(click to show/hide)

HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Fort: Poor
Ref: Good
Will: Good
1 - 2 known, 2 prepared - Blaze 1/day, control fire, flame's blessing, searing touch
2 - 3 known, 2 prepared -
3 - 4 known, 3 prepared - Burning grace, fiery illumination
4 - 6 known, 3 prepared - Blaze 2/day, elemental command
5 - 7 known, 4 prepared - Devoted pyromancer, burning glare
6 - 9 known, 4 prepared - Shape of flame
7 - 10 known, 5 prepared -
8 - 12 known, 5 prepared - Blaze 3/day, flamewalker
9 - 13 known, 6 prepared -
10 - 15 known, 6 prepared - Lesser ascension, searing aura
11 - 16 known, 7 prepared - Fierce blaze
12 - 17 known, 7 prepared - Blaze 4/day, flaming brilliance
13 - 18 known, 8 prepared -
14 - 19 known, 8 prepared - Veins of fire
15 - 20 known, 9 prepared - Flamebreak, master pyromancer
16 - 20 known, 9 prepared - Blaze 5/day
17 - 21 known, 10 prepared - Eternal blaze
18 - 21 known, 10 prepared - Undying flame
19 - 21 known, 11 prepared -
20 - 21 known, 12 prepared - Blaze 6/day, greater ascension, incinerating blaze

Charisma-based spellshaping

Fast movement as monk

Blaze - Gain +4 bonus to Charisma, gain DR 5/magic, smoke imposes 10% miss chance on attacks made against you while blazing.  A blaze lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your (newly improved) Charisma modifier.  You may prematurely end a blaze if you wish.  At the end of a blaze, you lose the blaze modifiers and become fatigued for the duration of the encounter.
   You can erupt in a blaze only once per encounter.  At 1st level, you can use your blaze ability once per day.  At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, you can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level).  Beginning a blaze takes no time itself, but you can do it only during your action, not in response to someone else's action.

Control Fire - As the power (as a spell-like ability), can modify fire's size (as though augmenting, but free) number of times per casting equal to shaper level.  1 + Charisma modifier times per day.

Flame's Blessing - Charisma bonus to AC (monk-style), gain burn special ability (1d6+Charisma modifier fire damage; extinguishing fire requires DC 15 Reflex save, rather than just being a move action), resistance to fire 5 +5 per two levels past 1st (maximum 25 at 9th level), can breathe/see through smoke

Searing Touch - Fireblast, but only as touch attack

Burning Grace - You gain a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on all saving throws.  In addition, whenever you fail a saving throw against a creature's attack, if you didn't roll a 1, you deal a number of points of fire damage equal to your Charisma modifier to that creature.

Fiery Illumination - Illuminate area around you (bright light out to 60 feet, shadowy illumination out to 120 feet), can suppress/resume as free action

Elemental Command - Rebuke fire elementals, turn water elementals.  Turning level equals shaper level - 4.

Devoted Pyromancer - +1 to shaper level and DCs of Searing Flame formulae, ignore resistance and 1/2 immunity.  Can concentrate on control fire ability as a move action and can shape formulae without breaking concentration.  Fires that you start deal an additional +1 fire damage per die, save DC to extinguish fire increases by 5

Burning Glare - Can focus gaze as move action (no more than 1/round) to light creature or object on fire (as though affected by burn ability).  Also, gain Darkvision out to 60 feet.

Shape of Flame - Fire Form (Amorphous Form spell + fire-y goodness) or Smoke Form (see Flamedancer), as you see fit.

Flamewalker - Fire stride as spell-like ability

Lesser Ascension - Fire subtype, some elemental traits, can begin blaze as immediate action.

Searing Aura - Enemy creatures within 15 feet must make Fortitude save each round or take a number of points of fire damage equal to 2 x your Charisma modifier.

Fierce Blaze - Bonus to Charisma increases to +6, DR changes to 5/-.  Smoke imposes 20% miss chance on attacks made against you while you are blazing, creatures adjacent to you must save or be sickened.

Flaming Brilliance - As Imix (Dragon Magazine 347)

Veins of Fire - Absorb fire, fire damage to creatures that try to drain blood

Flamebreak - See Ventilating Shout class feature of the Firestorm Berserker (Dragon Magazine 314)

Master Pyromancer - +2 to shaper level and DCs of Searing Flame formulae, ignore resistance and immunity.  Can choose to maintain focus on control fire as a swift action, can animate a fire that you have increased or decreased in size.  Fires you start deal an additional +2 fire damage per die, save DC to extinguish fire increases by an additional 5.

Eternal Blaze - At 17th level and higher, no longer fatigued at the end of your blaze.

Undying Flame - Fiery Discorporation

Greater Ascension - Elemental type, grow fiery wings that grant you fly speed, creatures that fail their saves against searing aura must make additional Fortitude saves or become fatigued.  Fatigued creatures that fail this save become exhausted.  The fatigued and exhausted conditions imposed by this effect end 1d4 rounds after leaving the aura's area.

Incinerating Blaze - At 20th level, your bonus to Charisma increases to +8, DR increases to 10/-.  Smoke miss chance up to 50%, Fort save or be nauseated.

[Amechra]

If you wouldn't mind, could I post a "In X campaign setting" post for each of the base classes and prestige classes, on their threads; you know, like they had in some of the later MM for Eberron, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms?

[DonQuixote]

Sure!  Go right ahead.

Technically, the thread isn't locked.  Anything pertinent can be posted in any of the threads.

...I wonder how difficult it would be to get people to write handbooks...

[Amechra]

YAY! I'll put that up when I'm ready.

[DonQuixote]

Welp, the dragon aspirant update is posted.  It is now called the dragonheart adept, because I am the least inventive namer ever.  Which you probably caught onto a while ago.

[DonQuixote]

So, the future.  It's a thing.

The style of the Dragonheart Adept post is probably what's going to happen a fair bit.  I like the idea of writing Web Enhancements for my stuff--even if it's ridiculously pretentious and ego-inflating.  Therefore, I'm going to continue being annoying and writing in that manner.

However, stylistic elements aside, there remains the matter of what sort of content is forthcoming.  And the answers lie below--in no particular order, mind you.

• Item: Spellheart Weapons - These are basically going to fulfill the initial suggestion made by Amechra in this thread, as well as possibly drawing upon one made by bkdubs on the old boards.  I'm trying to decide whether I want a specific circle to require a specific weapon type, but I'm pretty sure that--given that the item that they are to be modeled off of does not allow weapon enhancements to be applied--each circle's weapon will have a unique effect.  Unless doing so kills me.
• Prestige Class: Unnamed, Shadowcaster / Spellshaper - Well, I have to learn how shadowcasting works--the only Tome of Magic material that gets any frequent use at our table is binding--but I see no reason not to at least try to fulfill Amechra's request on this one.
• Prestige Classes: Various, Spellshapers / Martial Adepts - Well, the call has gone out, and I shall answer.  I can't say that I'll write one for every discipline, but I certainly have some ideas.  Brilliant Dawn/Setting Sun for one--if only because of the glorious sun imagery.  Also, Diamond Mind/Eternal Moment is an interesting thought.  A few others will probably jump out of my brain, too.
• Base Class: Unnamed, Focused Searing Flame Spellshaper - No name for it yet--everything sounds too stupid or has been used--but this guy was previewed in one of my shorthand note thingies a few posts ago.  Basically, a melee combat spellshaper who uses melee touch attacks and gets a rage-like ability.  And some other goodies.  There is absolutely no guarantee that this will evolve into one base class for each circle--in fact, I find it highly unlikely.  I just really like Searing Flame.  The entire project grew out of my desire to play a fire-based magic user without being horribly underpowered, so this is really just inevitable.
• Base Class: Unnamed, Focused Devouring Shadow Spellshaper - Basically, my answer to the dread necromancer.  I'm trying to decide whether I want it to start undead--as in a ritual that you undergo at 1st level that basically necropolitan-izes you--or whether I want it to slowly become a lich--like a dread necromancer.  Similarly, I can't decide whether I want it to make lots of minions, or whether I want it focus on just one in a manner reminiscent of the Pathfinder summoner.  Either way, it's getting a phylactery sooner or later.
• Possibly More? - Really, this one's up to chance and you guys.  Either I'll randomly have ideas, or you'll suggest them.  Either way works, really.

I have no idea what my updating schedule is going to be like--even as I type, I am aware that I should be working on those two papers that are due Wednesday.  Moreover, my roommate just fixed my corrupted copy of Umineko no Naku Koro, so it's a good bet that I'm going to spend a lot of the upcoming weeks on that.

Remember, though, I run on the fuel of feedback and suggestions.  If I don't know what's bad, I don't know what to fix.  If I don't know what's good, I don't know what to keep doing.  And, if I don't know what people want, I don't know what to write for them.

[sirpercival]

• Prestige Class: Unnamed, Shadowcaster / Spellshaper - Well, I have to learn how shadowcasting works--the only Tome of Magic material that gets any frequent use at our table is binding--but I see no reason not to at least try to fulfill Amechra's request on this one.

The coolest shadowcaster I ever came up with was a beguiler/shadowcaster/mystic theurge/noctumancer.  Was 17/18 in beguiler/shadowcaster casting, so kind of like a homemade gestalt.  Some name ideas:

Night shaper
Sky-schemer ["shadow shape" in greek is phonetically skemo-skia]

• Base Class: Unnamed, Focused Searing Flame Spellshaper - No name for it yet--everything sounds too stupid or has been used--but this guy was previewed in one of my shorthand note thingies a few posts ago.  Basically, a melee combat spellshaper who uses melee touch attacks and gets a rage-like ability.  And some other goodies.  There is absolutely no guarantee that this will evolve into one base class for each circle--in fact, I find it highly unlikely.  I just really like Searing Flame.  The entire project grew out of my desire to play a fire-based magic user without being horribly underpowered, so this is really just inevitable.

Burning Rage Acolyte
Scorching Blood Cultist

• Base Class: Unnamed, Focused Devouring Shadow Spellshaper - Basically, my answer to the dread necromancer.  I'm trying to decide whether I want it to start undead--as in a ritual that you undergo at 1st level that basically necropolitan-izes you--or whether I want it to slowly become a lich--like a dread necromancer.  Similarly, I can't decide whether I want it to make lots of minions, or whether I want it focus on just one in a manner reminiscent of the Pathfinder summoner.  Either way, it's getting a phylactery sooner or later.

I would recommend NOT modeling it after the DN's lich-iness.  People who want that can already be a DN, and one of the biggest strategies for a DN is to become Necropolitan as soon as possible.  I wouldn't give it at first level, though -- give it at 3rd, to make it roughly equivalent to becoming Necropolitan.  Undead immunities at 1st level are pretty brutal.

Also, there are again already several classes built around an undead army.  I would look for something unique to bring to the table there.  In particular, Devouring Shadow is NOT about undead, it's about negative energy and status effects.  I would say that you could make a devouring shadow/necromancy dual-progression PrC that would work well, but as a base class I personally would go for something a little more oddball.  Like, maybe give a negative-energy version of something like the Shifter Druid's beast spirit ACF, modeled around a ghostly visage... and then some of the class features basically bind you to it to get more and more abilities?

Another thing is that based again on the flavor of the Devouring Shadow formulae, maybe a lich makes less sense than something like a vampire?  Liches are more self-contained, while vampires, you know, devour.  They also do negative levels and things with attacks, so thematically and mechanically it fits.

Anyway, I can't give you name suggestions until I know more about what you'll do with the class

• Possibly More? - Really, this one's up to chance and you guys.  Either I'll randomly have ideas, or you'll suggest them.  Either way works, really.

And of course, I'm going to suggest some homebrew theurgery.  How about a spellshape/ritualist blend? 

Also, a spellshape/incarnum prestige class would be amazing.  I have a couple of incarnum homebrews (a wilder/totemist prc and an aberration-themed base class), so if you like I can work on something.

[DonQuixote]

• Base Class: Unnamed, Focused Searing Flame Spellshaper - No name for it yet--everything sounds too stupid or has been used--but this guy was previewed in one of my shorthand note thingies a few posts ago.  Basically, a melee combat spellshaper who uses melee touch attacks and gets a rage-like ability.  And some other goodies.  There is absolutely no guarantee that this will evolve into one base class for each circle--in fact, I find it highly unlikely.  I just really like Searing Flame.  The entire project grew out of my desire to play a fire-based magic user without being horribly underpowered, so this is really just inevitable.

Burning Rage Acolyte
Scorching Blood Cultist

Possibilities.  I'm trying to make it less...shall we say...barbaric in flavor.

• Base Class: Unnamed, Focused Devouring Shadow Spellshaper - Basically, my answer to the dread necromancer.  I'm trying to decide whether I want it to start undead--as in a ritual that you undergo at 1st level that basically necropolitan-izes you--or whether I want it to slowly become a lich--like a dread necromancer.  Similarly, I can't decide whether I want it to make lots of minions, or whether I want it focus on just one in a manner reminiscent of the Pathfinder summoner.  Either way, it's getting a phylactery sooner or later.

I would recommend NOT modeling it after the DN's lich-iness.  People who want that can already be a DN, and one of the biggest strategies for a DN is to become Necropolitan as soon as possible.  I wouldn't give it at first level, though -- give it at 3rd, to make it roughly equivalent to becoming Necropolitan.  Undead immunities at 1st level are pretty brutal.

Also, there are again already several classes built around an undead army.  I would look for something unique to bring to the table there.  In particular, Devouring Shadow is NOT about undead, it's about negative energy and status effects.  I would say that you could make a devouring shadow/necromancy dual-progression PrC that would work well, but as a base class I personally would go for something a little more oddball.  Like, maybe give a negative-energy version of something like the Shifter Druid's beast spirit ACF, modeled around a ghostly visage... and then some of the class features basically bind you to it to get more and more abilities?

Another thing is that based again on the flavor of the Devouring Shadow formulae, maybe a lich makes less sense than something like a vampire?  Liches are more self-contained, while vampires, you know, devour.  They also do negative levels and things with attacks, so thematically and mechanically it fits.

Anyway, I can't give you name suggestions until I know more about what you'll do with the class

While I tend to agree with you on the progression of undeath and the non-army-ness, I must, unfortunately, make it lich-themed.  There is a running joke among my friends that I am secretly a lich--thus, I cannot pass up the chance to write a lich class.

• Possibly More? - Really, this one's up to chance and you guys.  Either I'll randomly have ideas, or you'll suggest them.  Either way works, really.

And of course, I'm going to suggest some homebrew theurgery.  How about a spellshape/ritualist blend? 

Also, a spellshape/incarnum prestige class would be amazing.  I have a couple of incarnum homebrews (a wilder/totemist prc and an aberration-themed base class), so if you like I can work on something.

I'll definitely look at the ritualist stuff, though I have no clue what compatibilities exist.

Also, what's incarnum?...oh, wait...that sounds familiar.  I...I think I have a PDF named something like that?  I'm not sure...I don't think I've ever opened it...

[sirpercival]