Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestion Thread  (Read 224417 times)

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #640 on: October 08, 2012, 09:29:05 AM »
Triple posting to reassure everyone watching the thread that, no, I haven't forgotten about the revisions.  My workload has just been somewhat...intense of late.  I'm on break next week, though, so I should be able to wrap up the revisions of the actual spellshaping rules.  Hopefully, I'll also have time to start on the circles.

If you have any issues with specific formulae, now would be the time to mention them.  Alternatively, if there are formulae that you just couldn't bear to live without, you should probably mention those, too.

I don't expect to be changing any of the incantations or numena.  The incantations were done recently enough that they all fit my thematic conceptions, while the numena all fit the general mechanics that I want them to.  Similarly, the simplicity of the spellshape attacks means that they probably won't see many changes, though I'm probably going to standardize the range on caustic spray and withering hand.  I do hope to keep the touch attack option on the latter, since it fits so well with certain necromantic archetypes.
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Offline Qumi

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Re: Base Class - Spellshape Champion
« Reply #641 on: October 11, 2012, 02:42:42 AM »
I find this class way overpowered.

It has:

Full BAB
Highest Hit Die
2 good saves
lots of skills

Spellshape channeling is no liability. It gives you free extra damage. Similarly to sneak attack, but with no conditions. Manevours and Duskblade ability are similar, but they require to have only 1 attack (full attack for Duskblade on higher levels)

Daunting presence is nothing more than free stance Iron guard glare, however, you do not have to choose between your numen and this. Basically, you get free Stance Mastery of Warblade, but limited to 2 stances (which are both very good).

Champion's resolves bonus to AC is simply too big. The class already has good saves and great hit dice.

There's more, but I don't have time now... anyway... this class is not only way more powerful than any tanky class I saw, but also is very good at dealing damage and crowd control. It's too good in too many fields.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #642 on: October 11, 2012, 03:34:33 PM »
I find this class way overpowered.

It has:

Full BAB
Highest Hit Die
2 good saves
lots of skills

Well, the base attack bonus isn't really going anywhere.  I've always been flabbergasted by melee-centric classes without a full attack bonus--the worst offender being the Incarnate.

The Hit Die could be dropped to d10s, but I'd have to adjust some other things.  Plus, it messes with part of the intended functionality of shaper's focus.

I could lower one of the saves, but--again--I'm not exactly sure of the extent to which two good saves is horribly broken.  Monk has three good saves, and I've never heard anyone call it overpowered.

In terms of skill points, I will never build a non-Intelligence based class that has fewer than four skill points per level.  Characters should be able to do things other than just combat without being masterminds.  With four skill points, you can Concentrate, Hide, Jump, and Sense Motive.  Not exactly breaking the bank, here.

Spellshape channeling is no liability. It gives you free extra damage. Similarly to sneak attack, but with no conditions. Manevours and Duskblade ability are similar, but they require to have only 1 attack (full attack for Duskblade on higher levels)

Actually, formulae also must be made with only a single attack, so you're operating on the same level as a martial adept.  Simply channeling a spellshape attack and doing nothing else only changes the damage type of your attack.

Daunting presence is nothing more than free stance Iron guard glare, however, you do not have to choose between your numen and this. Basically, you get free Stance Mastery of Warblade, but limited to 2 stances (which are both very good).

Well, if you have a numen at all, you either spent a feat on it or you took an alternative class feature that restricts you to using only one circle.  I don't actually think that the interplay between the two abilities is truly problematic.

The penalty from daunting presence itself could be dropped to a -2, but I'm still not sure it's a problem.  Enemies are aware of it, so they can choose to just attack you rather than the ally in question--suffering no penalty if they do so.

Champion's resolves bonus to AC is simply too big. The class already has good saves and great hit dice.

Well, part of the interplay of Shaper's Focus is that, to an extent, you want to be taking some damage--but not too much.  A spellshape champion who normally has slightly below average AC takes some damage, which grants him a bonus to his shaper level.  His AC goes up, though, meaning that he eventually gets hit less.  The increasing defense allows you to use your hit points as a bit of a resource--an aspect of the design that would suffer if the Hit Die were to be lowered.

There's more, but I don't have time now... anyway... this class is not only way more powerful than any tanky class I saw, but also is very good at dealing damage and crowd control. It's too good in too many fields.

Basically, if I understand your objections, your problem with the class is that it can tank efficiently without necessarily being built around it.  Having seen the class played a bit, I can say that it did not seem to stand head-and-shoulders above the other player characters.  He was on the front line, distracting the enemy, while still remaining relevant in terms of fighting it.  This was always the intent--I do not agree with a design philosophy in which a character must choose between tanking and dealing damage.



I'm not necessarily saying that the class is not overpowered--I don't trust my sense of balance anywhere near enough to make statements like that.  However, I'm not going to throw everything to the side based on one person's statements.

What do other people think about these points?  Is the spellshape champion too good, or are these elements a necessary part of its functionality?
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline samnemath

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #643 on: October 11, 2012, 03:53:06 PM »
I don't trust myself in maters of balance, but it doesn't seem broken. It doesn't have something that makes me prefer it over other classes. I don't say that it can't be broken but then again nearly all classes can.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #644 on: October 11, 2012, 04:37:54 PM »
Even if it is head and shoulders above other tanking classes, that isn't saying much.  Other than crusader, tanking classes are notoriously weak.  So what if this is a class that can actually succeed at a role that most other classes fail at?
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #645 on: October 11, 2012, 05:31:17 PM »
Even if it is head and shoulders above other tanking classes, that isn't saying much.  Other than crusader, tanking classes are notoriously weak.  So what if this is a class that can actually succeed at a role that most other classes fail at?

+1

Offline samnemath

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #646 on: October 13, 2012, 06:29:57 AM »
I have a question about Unseen Impetus.

How do the Formulae interact with feats?

Ex:
Violent Displacement + Improved trip
or
Hammering Force + improved Bullrush + Shock trooper


Edit: Also can a Sublime Shaper use his strikes (empowering, heightening etc) on the same formula?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 06:19:17 PM by samnemath »

Offline Dulcinea

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #647 on: October 21, 2012, 05:43:13 PM »
In terms of the Spellshape Champion's balance, I can't say much about it in comparison to classes in general, but compared to other spellshapers, it seems balanced.  Having played it several times, it has the distinct disadvantage of NOT getting to deal damage through touch attacks, which most of the other classes can do, which I feel tends to restrict the damage output at least a little and also focuses the character (since you have to pour a lot more resources into improving your attack).  Granted, full BAB helps with that, but I don't think it negates it by any means.  Saves are nice, but, well, they are pretty dependent on your DM, and most classes have 1-2 good saves.  Skills don't really overpower a character; they just tend to make it more useful out-of-combat (which is really nice!)

Anyways.  Just my two cents'.
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #648 on: October 31, 2012, 01:27:29 AM »
The Spellsage text says this:

Quote
You can prepare all six of your known formulae at 1st level

While the table lists 4 prepared formula at 1st level.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #649 on: November 01, 2012, 01:18:41 PM »
The Spellsage text says this:

Quote
You can prepare all six of your known formulae at 1st level

While the table lists 4 prepared formula at 1st level.

Fixed.  The rules text for formulae known, formulae prepared, and other not-actually-class-features can sometimes lag behind actual changes, since I tend not to think about those entries as things that exist.  Thanks for pointing it out.





So, it's looking like the revision is going to remain on pause until the winter, when it will briefly unpause during my semester break.  I know that I said that I would get work done during my fall break, but I ended up being so stressed and tired that I barely had the energy to clean.  People who know me well know exactly how dire that is.  Pretty goddamn dire, for those of you who were wondering.

I'm currently stuck in the revision of the rules, but at a weird place.  I've actually done the first third, which means that I'm on the "Formula and Incantation Descriptions" and "Acquiring Spellshaping Powers" sections...which are mostly a copy-paste job.  I'm having trouble finding the time or energy for even that, however...especially in light of what comes after that.

The "Epic Spellshapers" section.

While I could duck out of writing it, I did say that I was going to, and there seems to have been some slight interest at some point.  Plus, the actual class progressions aren't that hard--I've already figured them all out.  I've also figured out how incantations will scale, decided on the non-existence of epic formulae, and hashed out all of the other basics.  I have not, however, written any epic feats, and that's the one that's going to kill me.  As I've said, I have little time or energy, so learning how epic material is "balanced"--I'm not even going to pretend that it really is, but it at least nominally is--will be a task in and of itself.

I've come up with a "Circle Access" feat to let epic spellshapers learn formulae from multiple circles, elected to make that Elemental Leadership idea into an epic elemental adept feat, and decided on epic versions for Circle Focus and Spellshape Focus...and that's about it.  The lack of epic formulae means that I'm going to have to write a bunch of metashaping feats to offer some form of advancement, and that's just a whole can of worms that I'm afraid to even think about opening.

As a result of this general discomfort, I'm going to be moving the Epic Spellshapers material into the Appendix for Variant Spellshaping Material, just to save the headache for later.  While this won't actually get the revision moving again any time soon--my inertia is too great, as is my current workload--it will mean that things will move faster when I start up again.  Granted, they might stall again when I get to the appendix, but I'd much rather be stalled after revising the rules, formulae, prestige classes, and items.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #650 on: November 01, 2012, 09:31:24 PM »
Take all the time you need, I'm just glad to see that you're still around.   :)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #651 on: November 03, 2012, 06:33:11 PM »
I was just looking at the items, and I noticed that the Empowering Surge property could be written as "the extra damage die from the Empowering property is multiplied on a critical hit". The standard energy burst properties need to be written out specifically, since they deal extra d10s on crits instead of just d6s, but the lamen property just adds more of the same damage die size.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 06:34:49 PM by Garryl »

Offline Bauglir

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #652 on: November 05, 2012, 12:58:12 AM »
Wrote another circle, now with healing powers and laying on of hands (note: there is only laying on of hands if you are an Anchorite, and it's really more of a punching motion).

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #653 on: November 05, 2012, 01:13:11 AM »
I dislike the base spellshape attack. It's useless as a weapon against most foes, and in most parties is at will healing at no cost. Even non-shapers can get it for a single feat at first level, and I am just not comfortable with that.

Typo under Numen ("an affected creature gains heals 3 hit points").

Anchorite's delayed damage pool's effect of damaging you is worded oddly, and results in (for n equal to the amount of damage in the pool) you taking n(n+1)/2 damage to empty it fully one point at a time.

Not even touching the formulas tonight. Too tired.

Offline Bauglir

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #654 on: November 05, 2012, 01:27:39 AM »
It's intended to be useless as a weapon, and to be at-will healing at no cost. At level 1, the cost is entirely in opportunities to choose other options (which seems significant enough to me). Beyond that, it rapidly decreases in difficulty to accomplish with other mechanisms, none of which have proven overpowered. Still, I suppose it's worthy of consideration - I'm just unsure how I could make it work appropriately with general spellshaping mechanics while still healing, and not limiting it to a maximum of 1/2 total hit points or some other non-full hp limit (both are mandatory for the concept).

Will fix that.

I'll try to reword the delayed damage pool. Ideally, you should take 1 point of damage and then immediately heal 1 point of damage (or whoever you are touching should heal it).

EDIT: Yeah, both the typo and the Anchorite thing were holdovers from previous versions that didn't get updated in revision. Woops!
SECOND EDIT: Keep in mind, you can achieve slightly less efficient low-level healing without spellshaping levels by dumping 2 feats into learning Renew from Natural Balance, and a proper spellshaper can just learn the formula. It's slower, generally requiring 2 rounds to this spellshape attack's 1, but it's out of combat healing anyway.
THIRD EDIT: Also, Seal Wounds was written under the assumption that immediate action minor formulae are unprecedented, and I'm already violating so much precedent that I didn't want to bother. If that's not true, I'll update it to the Close Wounds export it was always meant to be.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 01:38:01 AM by Bauglir »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #655 on: November 05, 2012, 01:40:17 AM »
Eh, I'm kinda weird about unlimited healing out of combat. I don't really like it at levels 1-4, but I'm in favor of practically handing it out at level 5+ (when I run one-shots, for example, I just give my players a free, unlimited wand of CLW). For reference, level 5 is when DMM Persist Mass Lesser Vigor comes online. So, for example, if you wanted to change it to having the first 1d6 always deal damage, and the extra d6s at 5th and every 4 levels thereafter being that healing positive energy, I wouldn't say boo (well, I probably would at first glance until I thought about it and realized how it actually worked out).

Offline Bauglir

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #656 on: November 05, 2012, 10:47:03 AM »
Problem being, when you get your first extra one, you (on average) do nothing, and have to specify which die is which. That seems like a really weird dynamic to introduce.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #657 on: November 07, 2012, 12:54:01 PM »
I was just looking at the items, and I noticed that the Empowering Surge property could be written as "the extra damage die from the Empowering property is multiplied on a critical hit". The standard energy burst properties need to be written out specifically, since they deal extra d10s on crits instead of just d6s, but the lamen property just adds more of the same damage die size.

So it can.  I've added it to my notes for the item revision.

Wrote another circle, now with healing powers and laying on of hands (note: there is only laying on of hands if you are an Anchorite, and it's really more of a punching motion).

I don't have anywhere near the time to look at this right now, but it's on my radar.  Given the inherent weirdness of what you and Garryl are discussing, it may well end up in the Variant Spellshaping Material appendix, but I'm not sure yet.  Part of my uncertainty on this point is that I really want to jump back on the system revision as soon as possible, and it will almost certainly be easier to find the energy for diving straight into things that I already know, rather than reading a new circle and being confused by what balance is.

I am probably going to be nixing the Natural Balance healing formulae to account for this development, though.

Edit: Holy crap, after adding the healing-related Natural Balance formulae to my "axe or rebuild" list, I'm sitting at thirteen Natural Balance formulae that will be dropped or heavily altered.  The closest runner-up to that is Shocking Current, which has eight formulae on the chopping block.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 12:59:38 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Bauglir

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #658 on: November 07, 2012, 03:19:13 PM »
Yeah, go with that plan. Revisions first.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #659 on: November 09, 2012, 10:15:18 PM »
I finally cracked the code on how Microsoft Word actually works, so I spent a lot of today fussing around with formatting.  I'm happy to say that compiling the PDF for the revision will be much easier and faster than the process of preparing Codex I or Codex II.  By a significant margin.

The revision will also look significantly classier.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 10:17:28 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”