Author Topic: Players, how much do you want to know?  (Read 6905 times)

Offline bloodtide

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Players, how much do you want to know?
« on: April 23, 2013, 06:25:16 PM »
When a DM makes an adventure, how much do you as a player want to know about the details?  Do you want all the details up front, but promise you will pretend like your character does not know them?  Do you want just a vague outline so you know how to react to things?  Where do you draw the line between knowing details and playing the game to be entertained, surprised and have fun?

Example : In the Dark Swamp south of town live the fire goblins.  They explode when they die.  (almost) no NPC knows this as they avoid the swamp and it's not common knowledge.  So the characters would not know this by default.  Now as a player, would you say the DM needs to tell you about the fire goblins?  Would you agree to pretend your character does not know about a fire goblins?  Would you go as far to have your character get into melee with the fire goblins and take the damage when they explode?  Or would you say ''my character thinks the goblins look odd and stays away from them" and avoid the explosion damage?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 06:32:13 PM »
I think if you're tossing exploding goblins, that are only going to penalise melee characters... then yes. Hell, have one of the few people who's come back from there to tell the tale, perpetuating people's non-travelling, tell you. It adds something extra to keep an eye on without suddenly taking a chunk of HP out of a frontline fighter without their having any idea what's going on.

Not that I'd advise adding exploding goblins anyway, because that makes killing them nightmarish. Especially if there's a lot.

I'd like enough detail to avoid things that will inherently screw me over if I don't avoid them, and are completely unavoidable unless I'm told in the first place. Minefields are unpleasant.

Offline littha

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 06:38:52 PM »
I dont need to know specifics of monsters and the like but anything about the world itself that will severely affect my character would be good to know.

For example, if arcane magic only functioned within 10 miles of the city you start in I would certainly like to know if I was going to play a wizard. Not finding out until an adventure took you out of that area would ruin my experience as a player because the thing I joined the game to do (cast spells/be a wizard) isn't possible and I was not informed beforehand.

Exploding goblins I can deal with, though I generally use constructs (refluffed warforged scouts usually) or undead (zombies probably) for that to avoid the suicide bomber comparison which draws to much political/social attention away from the game itself. I would note that Knowledge checks would certainly be of use here and I would also give the monsters a distinctive appearence, giant glowing orange pustules for the goblins or zombies and a generally spherical, glowing body for the constructs probably. That way characters with appropriate knowledge skills would be rightfully rewarded.

Offline bloodtide

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2013, 08:20:58 PM »
I think if you're tossing exploding goblins, that are only going to penalise melee characters... then yes. Hell, have one of the few people who's come back from there to tell the tale, perpetuating people's non-travelling, tell you. It adds something extra to keep an eye on without suddenly taking a chunk of HP out of a frontline fighter without their having any idea what's going on.

I find it odd how Player vs. DM you are....but guess you give a good example.

I don't think it is fun to ruin all the fun by knowing everything ahead of time.  And I think most people like to have the fun of not knowing.  People don't watch the end of a movie first, read the last chapter of a book first or otherwise read a spoiler for something you want to be entertained by.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2013, 08:51:02 PM »
I would note that Knowledge checks would certainly be of use here and I would also give the monsters a distinctive appearence, giant glowing orange pustules for the goblins or zombies and a generally spherical, glowing body for the constructs probably. That way characters with appropriate knowledge skills would be rightfully rewarded.

This. I don't think it's necessary to tell the party what the monsters can do out of character before hand but if the party invests in the ability to identify monsters and figure out what they can do, you should allow them to use those abilities.

Saying "well no one has seen one of these before so your knowledge skills don't work" would be an asshole thing to do.

This is an example of the DM giving the players information based on their knowledge checks that I thought was well handled. Here is another one from the same game.

On the other hand, if no one in the party bothers with knowledges/divination spells/ similar stuff, and/or the players charge in and start hitting things without bothering to do any research or scouting first, I would have no problem whatsoever with there being some nasty surprises that blow up in their faces (litterally or otherwise.)

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2013, 09:05:33 PM »
Exploding goblins rule ass!

That being said .... common knowledge should be common.  Uncommon  knowledge should be reserved for those that actually have knowledge ranks or bardic knowledge or something.  Rare should have to be searched for.  Very rare should probably have to be extensively searched for, and even then only stumbled upon by accident.  Impossible knowledge is impossible. 

As you have described it, I would probably classify the exploding goblins as very rare.

Offline kitep

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2013, 11:28:17 PM »
I prefer to not know what my character does not know.  So if my PC shouldn't know about the exploding goblins then I'd prefer not knowing about them.

OTOH, I'd also be pretty upset if one exploding goblin was enough to kill my PC.  If it takes me down to 1/2 or 1/4 or whatever, so I know to run away and come up with a better plan is fun.  Being killed out of the blue is not fun.

I did have a DM who had exploding rats.  Not only that, when 1 explodes, the explosion would kill those around it, and then they would explode, killing more, which then also explode ... big chain reaction.  We still talk about it.  But no one died, or at least not permanently.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 02:38:19 AM »
I just want enough of a chance to find things out that it doesn't boil down to an arbitrary deduction of HP or other resources because I don't have telepathic abilities. If no-one has appropriate knowledge skills, but the DM has put in something so rare that it can't be found out.

The fun of not knowing is rather undermined if I go from not knowing to knowing, but not being able to participate.

Offline veekie

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 03:00:22 AM »
Things which would impact playstyles should be known, exploding goblins for example, are individually the dominion of knowledge checks, as are undead traits and the like. However, if they are going to take up a significant portion of the campaign, the players need to be informed. Consider an undead or construct based campaign for example. If a quarter of your enemies WILL be the living dead, not telling the players means somebody might be based on sneak attacks, critical hits, poison, or negative energy damage. Their character performance is dramatically impeded by lack of campaign information, and they have usually no recourse but character replacement.

So if exploding creatures are going to be a common feature(usually at least, 1 encounter in 4 is common enough to make a player want to change characters), it needs to be known, because as stated, melee characters will take a great deal of unnecessary damage. It's alleviated of course, if the PCs have some time to react, for example if they explode 1d4 rounds after death.

It's the same basis as putting characters in a troll heavy area. Either they are informed before the game so they can take appropriate measures, or you give them the measures. The rogue is not informed of it being an undead campaign, but he loots items early on which allow his sneak attack to continue functioning, etc.
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Offline Kasz

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2013, 08:25:29 AM »
If you're planning an Heavy undead game I'd like to know about it in the basic premise... like "You four will be a team of vampire hunters" That is enough info.

With any challenge I'd like to do recon first.... like if walking through a swamp... I go and talk to the locals...gather information checks, knowledge checks... That determines how much info I get... I might get: "There are dangers in the swamp", "There are orange goblins in the swamp", "the orange goblins explode when they stop breathing" depending on the knowledge check DC's and my result.

If I as a player skip that recon and wander in blind... then how would I as a character know anything? I wouldn't.

There's a fine line between... "this isn't in a book a knowledge check won't succeed" and "unobtainable information"...if knowledge checks are auto fail then it needs to be because I have to go read the journals at the inn, or talk to survivors from the swamp. No info should be COMPLETELY unobtainable. (with few exceptions, such as vecna blooded creatures and things no one has ever seen before, like discovering a new species... I just had an epic idea for a campaign... a group of explorer's discovering new and rare fauna / animals / monsters, capturing alive for exhibit...)

I'd keep most things secret... to ensure no accidental metagaming. Things about the world though... like in my last campaign Gnome was a slave race to the Dwarves... a player was going to play a gnome, we discussed it and he still played a gnome, he just had to swear fealty to the party dwarf. It was a much better outcome than starting the session and then telling him "The man spits in your face and calls you a dirty slave". Which would have been confusion, hurt feelings and a waste of session time explaining. You need to tell players any information that isn't in a standard D&D setting..ie changes from the PHB / DMG.

If I were thinking about playing a Fighter or a Sorcerer I'd love to know before the game how common magic swords were... If standard DND then fine, but if it's a low magic setting and you don't get a +1 magic sword until level 10 and spellcasters have -2 spells per day? then I'll take the Sorc with reduced spell slots....but you'd need to tell me that too before I wrote up a sheet.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 10:33:45 AM »
When a DM makes an adventure, how much do you as a player want to know about the details?  Do you want all the details up front, but promise you will pretend like your character does not know them?  Do you want just a vague outline so you know how to react to things?  Where do you draw the line between knowing details and playing the game to be entertained, surprised and have fun?
I want to know enough about the game to make an appropriate character for it (one that makes sense, and one that will be able to perform), and I want to know what the rules are, so I don't get surprised mid-game.


Example : In the Dark Swamp south of town live the fire goblins.  They explode when they die.  (almost) no NPC knows this as they avoid the swamp and it's not common knowledge.  So the characters would not know this by default.  Now as a player, would you say the DM needs to tell you about the fire goblins?  Would you agree to pretend your character does not know about a fire goblins?  Would you go as far to have your character get into melee with the fire goblins and take the damage when they explode?  Or would you say ''my character thinks the goblins look odd and stays away from them" and avoid the explosion damage?
In this specific example, I'd prefer to not know out of character about the fire goblins, so long as the DM doesn't make the explosions lethal to a melee character who finds out the hard way. It should still work within the Knowledge rules, even if he feels the DC should be higher, so maybe the wizard recognizes them for what they are, but there's no certainty.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 11:19:12 PM »
At minimum I want to know enough to know what the setting is and how whatever character might fare in it.  At maximum I can deal with knowing pretty much everything since I can compartmentalize player knowledge vs character knowledge.  I can even play Magic against myself, although that's more due to being able to forgot the held cards when I switch from one side to the other.  Though there is a problem there if it's an instant or other ability.

I'm also one of those people who can skip ahead and read the end of a book or see the end of the movie, and that can actually entice me to read or watch it all through because I want to know how everything got to that point.  Despite what the end goal is, I won't claim to know what the other players will do (until I've observed them playing enough that we can start working as a team), and even then I like to see it unfold.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 12:00:55 AM »
I am rabidly anti-spoilers. 

However, I want to know about the setting.  And, I also want to know what kind of game I'm playing b/c I have to both create a character who is appropriate to it and I want to know it's something I will enjoy.  I don't want to bring Capt. Hack and Slash into an intrigue game, for instance.  I feel like this should be possible to convey without undermining the enjoyment of a game to any significant degree.  It's all pitched at a pretty high degree of generality. 

As to the setting, one of my pet peeves is that in most RPGs PCs seem to like fall from the sky or something.  Unless they've just landed from Krypton or something, they've grown up in this setting, spent their entire lives shaped by it.  So, it's crazy to think they're tabula rasa. 

Relatedly, I also really like meshing people's backstories and motivations together.  Part of this is that I like intraparty conflict.  But, it has to make sense.  If two people come to loggerheads and they have no deep connection to each other, then one of them will usually just walk away.  But, that's wildly impractical at a gaming table.  When Caramon and Raistlin have issues, they can have a drag out fight about it without undermining the entire campaign.  A lot of the greatest conflict-laden troupes are really families or things like it -- I'm thinking of stuff like the X-Men or the Fantastic Four. 

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 07:21:09 PM »
Normal Knowledge checks should be able
to uncover normal info on the "goblin" part
of the goblins.  But if no one knows about
this kind of new goblin ... no one knows.
Excepting decent powered Divinations.

Explode Fire upon death, can be a
scale-able attack.  Like 1d6 for 1st
level, 2d6 for 2nd, etc ...
Dromites have a 1/day energy ray.
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It doesn't have to be at the start of
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 10:33:23 PM »
Normal Knowledge checks should be able
to uncover normal info on the "goblin" part
of the goblins.  But if no one knows about
this kind of new goblin ... no one knows.
Excepting decent powered Divinations.

Knowledge checks aren't limited to what people "know" as in "have seen before and confirmed," though. They also cover a general ability to intuit the capabilities of something you haven't seen before.

So a sufficiently high knowledge check, ought to let you go "that [physical characteristic] tells me that these goblins may have explosive potential"

Offline Craiconn

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 03:36:00 PM »
A lot depends too, on the allowance and introduction of Divination-intensive PCs.  There are a significant amount of magics and psionics that some PCs will wish to push hard into the campaign ... that will expose a significant amount of mysteries and hidden lore to the other players whether they like it or not. 

Offline Demelain

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 06:53:06 PM »
I had a recent brush with this sort of thing. We were told, up-front, that it was an undead intense game. We would be working for undead (in this case liches) against a menagerie of undead which were managed by vampires. I believe my case to be an outlier, but I'll explain it nonetheless.
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Tell your players if the adventure/campaign is going to have a thematic enemy. Chances are good that their character would know that their world is full of undead, or that Evil Organization X is breathing down their necks, or that they're going to be adventuring into the Nine Hells/the Abyss.
Tell your players about all of your house rules. When we sit down to a game of D&D 3.5, we have agreed to follow the rules as written unless otherwise stated. If you go around changing rules without telling anyone, you're breaking that agreement.
If you're using a custom setting, give them a bullet-point list of important facts of that setting. If you're using a published setting, tell them which one and if you're changing anything important about it (e.g. if you don't like that Warforged aren't property anymore in Eberron, and decide to instead undo the historical moment they gained freedom, you should tell someone before they roll up a warforged).

Tell them if you have a particular weakness at handling something as a DM. I, for instance, hate dealing with butt-loads of units in play. I ask my players to not take leadership and to not make a horde necromancer/summoner/hordificer. One of the guys in our group hates dealing with divination, so we don't use them when he DMs.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Players, how much do you want to know?
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2013, 03:03:12 PM »
Normal Knowledge checks should be able
to uncover normal info on the "goblin" part
of the goblins.  But if no one knows about
this kind of new goblin ... no one knows.
Excepting decent powered Divinations.

Knowledge checks aren't limited to what people "know" as in "have seen before and confirmed," though. They also cover a general ability to intuit the capabilities of something you haven't seen before.

So a sufficiently high knowledge check, ought to let you go "that [physical characteristic] tells me that these goblins may have explosive potential"

Oh right.  Inference.

Sort of an on-going set of passive Know checks.
Filtered through Spot, Listen, other senses, magic.
And throw in Spellcraft checks.
"There's a magic effect but idk what kind."
"Oh now I see it."
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