Shadow Elemental

[Anomander]

Alrighty! Hope that's it. I'll read it again tomorrow and see how it looks like.

[oslecamo]

Clearly I missed the memo where Shadow elementals are supposed to be the ultimate uber master elemental race.
-Roughly same abilities as other elemental classes, BUT incorporeability for free.
-Shadows clearly should be more amorphous than water or even air, makes perfect sence for they are the master elemental race.
-Good night indeed, the whole world will soon be covered in undispellable darkness, mostly because there's no rules for interacting with light/darkness effects, just spells, and even if it counted as a spell it can easily outspam every other light user out there.
-Now at-will auto-shaken. Hmm, I guess we were missing a "don't save, just die" effect so far, just remember to team up with somebody else who can also inflict no-save shaken. Altough the other dirty peasants usually at least can't do so at-will, and that's why shadows are still the master race.
-Natural habitat allows the Shadow to multiply its wealth under the light, and at least a dozen other shenigans at the top of my head. But since this is the master race, it's only 1/3 of the ability! Wait, the 2nd looks actually balanced! But then free attacks, I was afraid the master race would be slacking of for a moment there, great job!
-Dark Clone allows the shadow master race to completely render obsolete the dirty peasants of other elements! Make sure to bring your favorite flavor of sacrifice to consume with this.

I must go now. I'm not worthy of basking in the darkness of the ultimate master race that completely eclipses all other elements at half level.

[Anomander]

Roughly same abilities as other elemental classes, BUT incorporeability for free.

Still felt kinda balanced compared to the other monster classes. Removed Shadow Mass and put Cold Night in its place so it ends up with something less. If you like the idea the other malleable elements could have it too. Half the ability got useless by the time it reached full incorporeality so that would be something more for those other elementals.

Shadows clearly should be more amorphous than water or even air, makes perfect sense for they are the master elemental race.

Makes perfect sense since shadow technically has a lower mass than air. Along with technically not existing.

Good night indeed, the whole world will soon be covered in undispellable darkness, mostly because there's no rules for interacting with light/darkness effects, just spells, and even if it counted as a spell it can easily outspam every other light user out there.

Darkness is a descriptor, just like mind-affecting is one. It determines how it interacts with the light descriptor, meaning it isn't only restricted to spells. There can also only be one so it can hardly cover the whole world.

Now at-will auto-shaken.

On a hit with a specific natural weapon, yes. For 1 round.

Natural habitat allows the Shadow to multiply its wealth under the light

It only determines the space it occupies. It doesn't multiply anything.

Is there a reason you take every opportunity, good and bad, to try to be as offensive as possible?

[Rakoa]

Is there a reason you take every opportunity, good and bad, to try to be as offensive as possible?

I gotta say...his response did seem a little bit harsh.

[ketaro]

I gotta say, his response was pretty dang hilarious

[Anomander]

I got a kick out of it too but its the intention that matters.

[Rakoa]

I have to agree that it was funny.

[oslecamo]

The current pic for this class doesn't do it enough justice, so here's an improvement I made:

Roughly same abilities as other elemental classes, BUT incorporeability for free.

Still felt kinda balanced compared to the other monster classes. Removed Shadow Mass and put Cold Night in its place so it ends up with something less. If you like the idea the other malleable elements could have it too. Half the ability got useless by the time it reached full incorporeality so that would be something more for those other elementals.

You know one of the main reasons why ethereality must be slowed down?

So that you can't ignore  99% of mundane barriers at early levels.

Even if thematic, even if the master elemental race was willing to share it with the dirty peasants, 2nd level is too freaking early for something like that.

Oh, and it's far from useless even when full incorporeability kicks in because you're also telling every grappler that they can go f*** themselves if they meet the master elemental race. And most battlefield control users actually, regardless if they can interact with etheral stuff or not. It's Master Freedom of Movement, doubly so because it isn't actually named Freedom of Movement and thus anti-Freedom of Movement effects do nothing against it.

Nevermind that the master elemental race elemental is already hitting harder than any the dirty peasants at first level (touch attacks with extra cold damage while everybody else has to hit normal AC and only the fire elemental gets a bonus, and the fire elemental is the least likely to get his elemental mastery to be active).

Shadows clearly should be more amorphous than water or even air, makes perfect sense for they are the master elemental race.

Makes perfect sense since shadow technically has a lower mass than air. Along with technically not existing.

Things with more mass... Should automatically be less amorphous?

Every human being is less amorphous than the atmosphere of the planet?

Geez, and me here thinking that shadows are created from light projections and thus have a fixed shape! The master elemental race will never cease to wonder me!

Good night indeed, the whole world will soon be covered in undispellable darkness, mostly because there's no rules for interacting with light/darkness effects, just spells, and even if it counted as a spell it can easily outspam every other light user out there.

Darkness is a descriptor, just like mind-affecting is one. It determines how it interacts with the light descriptor, meaning it isn't only restricted to spells.

This makes even less sense than your "human beings are less amorphous than air" argument, since darkness countering light is explicitly mentioned only on spells for spells in a case by case basis. There's no specific descrption for the Darkness or Light effects. For example, by RAW Sunbeam can't destroy a basic Darkness spell. But I guess that's only because I don't belong to the master elemental race.

There can also only be one so it can hardly cover the whole world.

And now that sounds much better.

Now at-will auto-shaken.

On a hit with a specific natural weapon, yes. For 1 round.

You mean the touch attack natural weapon from the creature that cannot be stopped short of being fully encapsulated, except you just claimed it's even less amorphous than air and doesn't actually exist so there's absolutely nothing that can actually encapsulate it? An easy task for the elemental master race!

Natural habitat allows the Shadow to multiply its wealth under the light

It only determines the space it occupies. It doesn't multiply anything.

Enlighten Darken me then, what happens to stuff carried? Is the elemental master race now also fully immune to sunder and disarm while under the light because any items aren't actually there? Does the elemental master race can now instantly transport creatures and items across the world and galaxy since the splits can have independent movement?

Is there a reason you take every opportunity, good and bad, to try to be as offensive as possible?

Roll 1d6 and pick:
1-I'm mad. Seriously, I've sinked Vecna knows how many hours on this project for some old edition, all for free and with people insulting me about it at every moment. Does this sounds like something a sane person would do?
2-I'm too drunk to do anything else and this is how I spend time until I sober up.
3-Just reading this class makes me filled with rage inside and this is how I cope with it.
4-There's so much puns in this that it seems like a TVtropes entry and I only thought it would be appropriate to reply like this.
5-I'm super envious of your superb fluff Aesthetics writing skillz and since I know I'll never be able to become as good as you at that, I do this. Thanks Vecna you still don't have much eye for potential abuse with more open-sided abilities, or I would just tell the mods to turn you into the new boss of this whole thing and ragequit.
6-Roll two more times and combine results.

[Anomander]

You know one of the main reasons why ethereality must be slowed down?
So that you can't ignore  99% of mundane barriers at early levels.

And you realize I removed it right?

Nevermind that the master elemental race elemental is already hitting harder than any the dirty peasants at first level (touch attacks with extra cold damage while everybody else has to hit normal AC and only the fire elemental gets a bonus, and the fire elemental is the least likely to get his elemental mastery to be active).

As I already said, Cold Night is now at 2nd level.
As every other master races that get scaling incorporeality at first level, the touch attack doesn't have str bonus to damage on it.
And in case you forgot, the fire elemental does not actually have a Fire Mastery ability.

Things with more mass... Should automatically be less amorphous?

You got me on that one. Technically not existing might help make it easier to have whatever shape it wants when it does somehow exists though.

Geez, and me here thinking that shadows are created from light projections and thus have a fixed shape!

I know, right? They can even be alive and undead in DnD. The base monster is incorporeal by nature so whatever technicality justifies its amorphous nature has been figured out by its author.

Darkness is a descriptor, just like mind-affecting is one. It determines how it interacts with the light descriptor, meaning it isn't only restricted to spells.

This makes even less sense than your "human beings are less amorphous than air" argument, since darkness countering light is explicitly mentioned only on spells for spells in a case by case basis.

No it doesn't. As I already explained, it is a descriptor. It is in the list of descriptors and descriptors are not limited to spells, just like the mind-affecting descriptor isn't something you only see in spells.
I remember seeing it dnd books as well. There is that

There's no specific description for the Darkness or Light effects.

I agree that they have specifically explained how they work because they unfortunately didn't develop much on their descriptors. To understand how they work past their

(click to show/hide)

The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.
Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.

.
That doesn't say how they actually interact with them, no? We only know that they do.
Now, mind-affecting affects are better detailed in how they interact with spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on by specifics in what exactly creatures immune to stuff with that descriptor are made immune to.
Its in the description of the immunity. It also says that all enchantments have that descriptor but that doesn't really help besides giving it subcategories like Charm and Compulsion.
What we know for sure about the darkness and light descriptors is that they counter and dispel each other like all opposing descriptors do. Things with the darkness descriptor are countered or dispelled with by things with the light descriptor, and vice-versa.

For example, by RAW Sunbeam can't destroy a basic Darkness spell. But I guess that's only because I don't belong to the master elemental race.

It has the light descriptor so even though the spell description doesn't explicitly mention it, like, say, Sunburst, it counters and dispels stuff with the darkness descriptor.
This also reminds me of the Master of Radiance, that has an aura of light that counts as a 5th-level spell with the light descriptor for the purpose of interacting with spells and effects with the darkness descriptor.
But I also agree that I can make it clearer since many spells with the darkness and light descriptors specify how they interact with their opposite descriptor. That should fix the issue.

Darken me then, what happens to stuff carried? Is the elemental master race now also fully immune to sunder and disarm while under the light because any items aren't actually there? Does the elemental master race can now instantly transport creatures and items across the world and galaxy since the splits can have independent movement?

Aw. I had covered that detail but hadn't saved the modification. Thanks for pointing it out.

Roll 1d6 and pick

This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5

5-I'm super envious of your superb fluff Aesthetics writing skillz and since I know I'll never be able to become as good as you at that, I do this. Thanks Vecna you still don't have much eye for potential abuse with more open-sided abilities, or I would just tell the mods to turn you into the new boss of this whole thing and ragequit.

That's why we're all here. To spot those. I helped you cover some open-sided ability issues and such bugs as well so I'd say when we team up it is usually for the better.
Don't mind the writing skillz. It only took me, what, 3 rewrites to adequately define how I wanted isolated creatures to be? 

Otherwise, for the mad entry, ...you feel I'm insulting you, somehow? Sorry if I did. o_O

3-Just reading this class makes me filled with rage inside and this is how I cope with it.

...why?

[ketaro]

I truly want to believe the real answer is "4" on the d6 chart because I love Os that much

[oslecamo]

You know one of the main reasons why ethereality must be slowed down?
So that you can't ignore  99% of mundane barriers at early levels.

And you realize I removed it right?

It was still there when I wrote that other post.

Nevermind that the master elemental race elemental is already hitting harder than any the dirty peasants at first level (touch attacks with extra cold damage while everybody else has to hit normal AC and only the fire elemental gets a bonus, and the fire elemental is the least likely to get his elemental mastery to be active).

As I already said, Cold Night is now at 2nd level.
As every other master races that get scaling incorporeality at first level, the touch attack doesn't have str bonus to damage on it.
And in case you forgot, the fire elemental does not actually have a Fire Mastery ability.

Yes, it's at 2nd level. And faster scaling than the dirty fire elemental peasant, and multiplied on crits to boot.

Not adding Str just means moar points for Dexterity to further increase your acuraccy.

And thanks for reminding me, fire elementals indeed don't even get a mastery, so the master elemental race pulls even further ahead.

Geez, and me here thinking that shadows are created from light projections and thus have a fixed shape!

I know, right? They can even be alive and undead in DnD. The base monster is incorporeal by nature so whatever technicality justifies its amorphous nature has been figured out by its author.

I don't recall any author in D&D ever claiming that a Shadow or Shadow elemental can slip just trough a force cage.

Darkness is a descriptor, just like mind-affecting is one. It determines how it interacts with the light descriptor, meaning it isn't only restricted to spells.

This makes even less sense than your "human beings are less amorphous than air" argument, since darkness countering light is explicitly mentioned only on spells for spells in a case by case basis.

No it doesn't. As I already explained, it is a descriptor. It is in the list of descriptors and descriptors are not limited to spells, just like the mind-affecting descriptor isn't something you only see in spells.
I remember seeing it dnd books as well. There is that

There's no specific description for the Darkness or Light effects.

I agree that they have specifically explained how they work because they unfortunately didn't develop much on their descriptors. To understand how they work past their

(click to show/hide)

The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.
Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.

.
That doesn't say how they actually interact with them, no? We only know that they do.
Now, mind-affecting affects are better detailed in how they interact with spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on by specifics in what exactly creatures immune to stuff with that descriptor are made immune to.
Its in the description of the immunity. It also says that all enchantments have that descriptor but that doesn't really help besides giving it subcategories like Charm and Compulsion.
What we know for sure about the darkness and light descriptors is that they counter and dispel each other like all opposing descriptors do. Things with the darkness descriptor are countered or dispelled with by things with the light descriptor, and vice-versa.

For example, by RAW Sunbeam can't destroy a basic Darkness spell. But I guess that's only because I don't belong to the master elemental race.

It has the light descriptor so even though the spell description doesn't explicitly mention it, like, say, Sunburst, it counters and dispels stuff with the darkness descriptor.
This also reminds me of the Master of Radiance, that has an aura of light that counts as a 5th-level spell with the light descriptor for the purpose of interacting with spells and effects with the darkness descriptor.
But I also agree that I can make it clearer since many spells with the darkness and light descriptors specify how they interact with their opposite descriptor. That should fix the issue.

I can't really argue with the master argument of "It's totally a generic rule, that's why it needs to be specifically mentioned in half the cases except in that single obscure prc"

Darken me then, what happens to stuff carried? Is the elemental master race now also fully immune to sunder and disarm while under the light because any items aren't actually there? Does the elemental master race can now instantly transport creatures and items across the world and galaxy since the splits can have independent movement?

Aw. I had covered that detail but hadn't saved the modification. Thanks for pointing it out.

Great, now explain why the master race gets stronger when it's exposed to its supposed weakness element, covering a much larger area.

Otherwise, for the mad entry, ...you feel I'm insulting you, somehow? Sorry if I did. o_O

I used "mad" as "insane", because I've already sunk countless hours on this project for little more than bragging rights.

3-Just reading this class makes me filled with rage inside and this is how I cope with it.

...why?

You mean besides outright stealing custom abilities from other elementals when not outright pumping them out to make this the shadow the master elemental race? Let's take a deeper look into the master elemental race, shall we?
Dark Magic-So with just 7 levels of the elemental master race, at 20 HD you'll be able to throw four 9th level spells per day plus change. That ignore most anti-spell defenses automatically because "f*** you, they're Su now", I see no other reason why. Dirty peasants usually need to actually invest 20 full levels to come anywhere this kind of power of versatility, the master race elemental gets it as a secondary early level ability. I eagerly await your explanation to how the dirty peasant elements 7th level abilities come anywhere close to this.

The Monster that Never Was-"F*** you, I'm the master elemental race, you can't stop me as long as there's light around!". Create darkness, move into a new area of light, you cannot deal with it.

Dread the Light Exposure-"F*** you, I'm a master magician with hundreds of spells at my fingertips, master warrior with my touch attacks with super scaling damage and super crits, and now also master of fear, get ready to roll a lot of dice if you want to even touch me. I also graduated at the top of elemental school and conducted several raids on Celestia."

Elder Elemental:-"F*** you reader, you can go figure what kind of shadow elemental Summon Monster can get."

Blacker than Black: -"F*** you oslecamo, I'm just gonna outright ignore the base rules out here and put non-srd spells, I'm also too lazy to just write a similar effect or at least provide a link".

Alone in the Dark-"F*** you everybody, kiss your teamwork goodbye with no saves or checks of any kind allowed."

[Raineh Daze]

Whilst I appreciate the work you've done on this project, Os, I don't think you need to be quite this hostile. It's not like it's going to get added to the index if you hate it, and pretty soon after that it'll drop off the front page and be generally forgotten. :/

[Anomander]

Yes, it's at 2nd level. And faster scaling than the dirty fire elemental peasant, and multiplied on crits to boot.
Not adding Str just means moar points for Dexterity to further increase your acuraccy.

The original monster's extra cold damage indeed scales higher than Burn. But it shouldn't be multiplied on crits, so I'll remove that. No Str on damage is just how it is with incorporeal attacks. This is a damage issue and Dex isn't contributing to it, it just has one less ability score contributing to its damage then.

I don't recall any author in D&D ever claiming that a Shadow or Shadow elemental can slip just trough a force cage.

I guess it depends on the model. They can slip through the one with bars. Perhaps you're confusing incorporeality with ethereality? Being ethereal doesn't make you incorporeal and force extends to the ethereal plane. It is a normal obstacle for incorporeal creatures and they can slip through normal obstacles anyway if those aren't larger than they are.

Great, now explain why the master race gets stronger when it's exposed to its supposed weakness element, covering a much larger area.

Stronger... I guess that depends. It is also more exposed and easier to target since it takes damage no matter which split you hit. It was meant to be a mixed advantage/disadvantage but I can turn this into an effect that makes mini splits that can only move and cannot be damaged that are only used to find an area without light to get away.

Dark Magic
Aye. Could turn this instead into some kind of 1 effect per effect level and turn it into some kind of domain with each usable once. The other elementals could get something similar based on their own element. It feels pretty appropriate.

The Monster that Never Was
I made it to be similar to how incorporeal undead creatures wink out of existence when they enter an AMF. But it is more of a weakness than it is an advantage.

Elder Elemental
Same as the other elementals.
IE: Summon Monster VI gives "Elemental, Large (any)"
Its pretty straight-forward.

Blacker than Black
I added the reference for where to find it. Just like you did for those Earth Elemental non-srd bonus feats.

Alone in the Dark
Yup. That's the idea.

[Raineh Daze]

Er, yeah, Alone in the Dark is way too strong now that I look at it. Anyone within... oh, minimum 30', later 50', of you is both: A) totally unable to see unless they have Ultravision, and B) totally unable with no way around it to function as a team. This is a stupid ability. It basically bans the DM from trying to use intelligent tactics against you.


Semi-related, the first thing I thought of when looking at was to get a Lunatic Princess stance and the first tactical feat. Until I attack them, the enemies can't even see me, let alone harm me--and I can beat on their friends happily.

[Anomander]

I'll swap it for always counting as isolated and give a save to avoid being alone in darkness.