Hengeyoukai choices

[Kerrus]

Hey all. Once again my regular IRL group has fallen apart and I've started looking around locally to find a new one. There's a couple around I've made tentative officers to, but outside of a basic listing of GM experience, I have no idea what to expect. That's a bit of a problem, because I'm not the best at just designing characters that are awesome in any setting per se.

So it occurred to me- rather than designing one character and hoping I could smush it into whatever character shaped hole the DM might want or expect, why not make several basic concepts and let those concepts inform possible character usage.


It doesn't get more basic than race, and all the DMs are fine with 3.5 material even if it's 'converted' like oriental adventures is. To that end, I've decided that giving Hengeyoukai a shot would be advantageous- because they're sufficiently interesting and useful to low or higher tier play.

That being said, I took one look at some of the suggested variants, and went "Eh... maybe", and that pretty much crapped all over my enthusiasm. I mean they're basic choices, but they're also not especially good. Only a couple have useful kit- Weasels have a climb speed (Not a very fast one, mind you), and rabbits have 40 ft move. None of the suggested birds- Crane or Swallow- are what I'd consider acceptable because they fly 20 ft, which is like, I might as well walk.


But then I read through the racial writeup again, and noticed something. It doesn't present the different variants as 'these are your choices'- but rather as 'your choices include these options'. The actual text says that I may be a hengeyoukai for ANY small or small creature of the animal type.


Well that opens some options up. So I took to the MM and the pathfinder monster books, and came some cool options.

There's a range- foxes that are statistically similar to rabbits (I'm not too keen on being a bunny), various rodents- including a particularly amusing one: You can be a skunk hengeyoukai. Might go with that one

Alternatively, the other serious contender is the Eagle. Eagles are, for the record, bad ass. While like most birds they only clock in at 10 ft landspeed, an Eagle goes like stink while flying, clocking in at 80 ft. A hawk may also be viable- being smaller but still size small than an Eagle, and not quite as fast.

This would open up a lot of options, assuming the campaign I join isn't all 'inside' stuff, which would naturally flavour my choice.


Suggestions, alternatives, would all be appreciated. I haven't decided on class yet, though I'm thinking either a Harmonious Paladin (ACF from CoV that grants bardic music instead of some basic pally stuff), or some sort of spellthief, or spell turning rogue.

[Rebel7284]

Dungeonbred fleshraker? >_>

[Kerrus]

No templates. Just creatures of the animal type, please.

[Azoriel]

Not to burst your bubble, but all of the hybrid forms are supposed to be moreorless equal to each other - the hybrid crane isn't any faster than the hybrid sparrow, and so on.  I'd probably just treat eagle and hawk hengeyokai in hybrid form as identical to the hybrid crane and sparrow (respectively).

Additionally, even having a slow fly speed beats the crap out of not having a fly speed at all.  Granted, you can get access to much better fly speeds later, but this one is available from 1st level.  (Your land speed drops to 20' while you're in hybrid form, but you can just change back into human form if that's really a problem.)

If I were doing a hengeyokai, I'd be more inclined to use the animal form for stealth as opposed to combat.  Using it for movement is a possibility (in which case the eagle is indeed your best bet), but you can only change forms so many times per day - useful for overland movement or maybe a sudden escape, but not so much in other scenarios.  In that regard, the sparrow is probably best.  (I think I'd prefer a crow or raven hengeyokai, but said animals would be statistically inferior to the sparrow.)  A rat may work better if you wanted to be discreet indoors and underground.

In the event you were going to use the animal form for combat, I'd be looking for the animal form either with the best kind of movement (sparrow and crane) or the most natural attacks (cat and badger).  Your hengeyokai eagle, if the DM signs off on it, would be superior to all pre-existing forms on both accounts (80' flight speed and three natural attacks).

(editted for grammar)

[snakeman830]

Badger hengoyaki are noteable for their Burrow speed.  This is a movement speed that's rather difficult to get your hands (paws?) on and can be extremely useful.

[Kerrus]

Not to burst your bubble, but all of the hybrid forms are supposed to be moreorless equal to each other - the hybrid crane isn't any faster than the hybrid sparrow, and so on.  I'd probably just treat eagle and hawk hengeyokai in hybrid form as identical to the hybrid crane and sparrow (respectively).

I didn't say anything about hybrid forms- I was just thinking about the base animal form.


I am mainly intending to use the change for stealth, disassociation with my 'normal' form, or overland travel, which is why the Eagle appeals to me. Hybrid form might be a 'look like a random monster' option, but it's not something that appeals to me normally, even if it is mechanically useful.
I'm intending to play this character as one who doesn't transform very often- or whom nobody knows *can* transform. Eagle appeals because the non-hybrid form.

I do think I mistook the hybrid form writeup for the base forms- looking up the sparrow, raven, and crane, their actual flyspeed is double what it is in the hybrid form. Though a rabbit goes at 40 regardless.

For an Eagle Hengeyoukai, the hybrid might then fly at 40 speed, 30 for a Hawk. It'd be something to take up with the DM, but in all honesty I hadn't even planned to use Hybrid form ever.


One possible option for the Eagle class-wise, is to be a Dragonfire Adept, or something with a breath attack. Then go get flyby attack or something. Firebreathing eagle might be hilarious, but could also be problematic due to lack of magic items/armor as an eagle. Which again points more towards utility usage or stealth or the like.

[Maat Mons]

The idea I always come back to with hengeyokai is playing a psion, always remaining in animal form, and always using the option to make a concentration check to manifest powers without a display.  This would allow you to pass for a normal animal in combat without restricting yourself to attacking with natural weapons. 

There are some interesting options available to a cat hengeyokai, but I think tibbit (Dragon Compendium, p21) is a better choice, since it gives your cat form physical ability scores as a function of your ability scores in humanoid for instead of fixed ones.  Of note is the don't mind me feat, which removes the attack of opportunity for entering an opponent's space.  Combined with the tumble skill to remove the attack of opportunity for leaving a threatened space, and you can get to your opponent without giving him a free hit. 

There might be something to be done with the strength of the true form spell (Dragons of Eberron, p15).  Expanded knowledge says it works on any power, which should include powers created by a spell-to-power erudite. 

[Azoriel]

I didn't say anything about hybrid forms- I was just thinking about the base animal form.

When you're bemoaning the 20' fly speeds, you're most certainly talking about the hybrid forms (even if you don't know you're reading the hybrid chart).   

The hybrid fly speeds aren't half of the animal fly speed, only a flat 20'.  For example, the natural fly speed of a crane is 60', and they get the same 20' fly speed of the hengeyokai sparrow when in hybrid form.  Ergo, the hengeyokai eagle would only fly at speed 20 in hybrid form as well.  A moot point, I suppose, given that you don't intend to use the hybrid forms anyway, but the point remains that the hybrid forms are largely identical within any one animal type.  The bird-type hengeyokai have a standard hybrid despite the differences between cranes and sparrows and so on.  (To the best of my knowledge, there's no raven hengeyokai in OA, btw - that's just something I made up - though it would be a simple matter of using the raven stats while in animal form.)

The idea I always come back to with hengeyokai is playing a psion, always remaining in animal form, and always using the option to make a concentration check to manifest powers without a display.  This would allow you to pass for a normal animal in combat without restricting yourself to attacking with natural weapons. 

There are some interesting options available to a cat hengeyokai, but I think tibbit (Dragon Compendium, p21) is a better choice, since it gives your cat form physical ability scores as a function of your ability scores in humanoid for instead of fixed ones.  Of note is the don't mind me feat, which removes the attack of opportunity for entering an opponent's space.  Combined with the tumble skill to remove the attack of opportunity for leaving a threatened space, and you can get to your opponent without giving him a free hit. 

There might be something to be done with the strength of the true form spell (Dragons of Eberron, p15).  Expanded knowledge says it works on any power, which should include powers created by a spell-to-power erudite. 

All very solid points!  I was thinking mostly scout or rogue off of the top of my head (simply to take advantage of the extra natural attacks), but psion would be a very good pick for discrete manifestation.  The benefits of being a tibbit over cat hengeyokai hadn't occurred to me before; there'd still be some advantage to the cat hengeyokai (it's easier for them to pass for humans in humanoid form than the small-sized tibbit), but it would seem the tibbit is a better choice if you wanted to optimize being a cat for combat.  (And perhaps a better choice overall, since the tibbit isn't capped on how often they can change forms.)

I'd posit being a binder over DFA, but psion is definitely stronger than the other two classes...

[awaken_D_M_golem]

If the hybrid form was statted the same as
the Human(oid) form and otherwise looked
different enough that a Disguise +10 check
could be tagged (like so many other form changers)
that'd be good enough for me.