Gauntlet - Break the CR

[A_bad_DM]

Trying it out with Factotum human~

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Human Factotum Lv.1
STR12/+1
DEX12/+1
CON11/+0
INT16/+3
WIS10/+0
CHA10/+0
BAB 0
FORT 0+0
REF 2+1
WILL 0+0

Weapon: Greatsword 2d6(+1STR)(19-20/x2)
Armor: Studded Leather Armor(+3AC, max +5 DEX, -1 to check with armor penalty)

Feats:
(Human)Improved Initiative
(Lv.1)    Combat Expertise

Skills:
Climb 4+1-1
Hide   4+1-1
Jump  4+1-1
Knowledge(Arcana) 4+3
Knowledge(Religion) 4+3
Open Lock 4+1
Spellcraft 4+3
Survival 4+0
UMD 4+0

AC: 10+1+3
Attack: 1d20+1+0

Scenario:
CR 1 Rat in Farmhouse

How the fight went:

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Open the door, initiative(Win with +5 against +3)
Charge for (Need to hit 17 from it being flat-footed: 1d20+1+1+3(Spent 1 Inspiration point to add INTbonus to atk roll) I hit from 12 to 20, 19-20 being crit.) AVG damage possibility of 4.3
Rat attacks back for(Need to hit 12 because my AC is lowered by 2 from the charge. It hits from 8-20, crit on 20(I'm only guessing, didn't verify)) AVG damage possibility of 4.9

Second initiative phase, hit for AVG damage possibility of 2.7(lower than last time because not charging and the rat isn't flat-footed anymore), totalizing 7 and killing the rat.

Ouch, that was rough and I'm pretty sure my math isn't good either. I did use the same math to calculate the avg damage for the rat though.

How the fight went, with calculations done by meyer_william(Thanks!)

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Here is how the fight went:

Threshold method
Win initiative, charge, use an inspiration point to add int to hit, and attack the flatfooted rat (bab0 + 1 str +2 charge +3 int) at +6, hit on an 11+ (50% chance), missing.

The rat attacks back +4 vs ac 12 (10+3 armor+1 dex -2 charge) (65%), for average damage 7hps, leaving you at 2hps.

Round 2:
Attack the rat (bab 0, +1 str, +3 int) +4 vs ac 20, hitting on 16+ (25%, resulting in 75%) hitting for average damage, (sword 7, +1 str), killing it.

OR -- weighted average
Win initiative, charge, use an inspiration point to add int to hit, and attack the flatfooted rat (bab0 + 1 str +2 charge +3 int) at +6, hit on an 11+ (50% chance), dealing (7 weapon, 1 str = 8 damage, 50%) 4 hps of damage.

The rat attacks back +4 vs ac 12 (10+3 armor+1 dex -2 charge) (65%), for  (7 hps damage 65% of the time) 4.55 damage, leaving you at 4.45 hps.

Round 2:
Attack the rat (bab 0, +1 str, +3 int) +4 vs ac 20, hitting on 16+ (25%) hitting for (sword 7, +1 str, 25%), dealing 2 damage, leaving it at 1
The rat attacks back +4 vs ac 14 (10+3 armor+1 dex) (55%), for  (7 hps damage 55% of the time) 3.85 damage, leaving you at 0.6 hps.

Round 3
Attack the rat (bab 0, +1 str) +1 vs ac 20, hitting on 19+ (10%) hitting for (sword 7, +1 str, 10%), dealing .8 damage, leaving it at .2
The rat attacks back +4 vs ac 14  (55%), for  (7 hps damage 55% of the time) 3.85 damage, you die.

[meyer_william]

Mulkidata, what level is that toon? At least two of the templates are LA+1, so, at least a third level character. I have no idea what the rest of them are, how they interact, or if it legal. Can you add a brief section on your toon as to how they get applied?

Also, averaged work like this
1d6 = (1+6)/2= 3.5
2d4 = 2*(1+4)/2 =5

Hope that helps

[muktidata]

Sorry, I didn't want to bore you with the behind-the-scene stuff:

Warforged LA +0
Feral +1 Inherited
Lolth-Touched +1 Acquired
Incarnate Construct -2
Dragonborn of Bahamut +0

And there you have it. Those templates are old friends of mine. They give melee a chance!

Edit: I didn't see you asked me to post on my toon post. I will edit it later.

[SorO_Lost]

And there you have it. Those templates are old friends of mine. They give melee a chance!

Speaking of dirty Incarnate Construct shenanigans.

A Dragonborn Feral Mineral Warrior Incarnate Construct Wild Proto Warforged
Point Buy: Str 18, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 8.
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 4, Con 26, Int 1, Wis 2, Cha 1. 
Drop the Dragonborn and you get to keep Feral's Fast Healing & Claws as well as Mineral's DR 8/Adamantine. Plus all that AC (12 natural, +2 armor). Note some claim Wild cannot be applied outside of PHB's Races.

Warforged Incarnate Construct White Dragonspawn Abomination
+4 Str*, +4 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, -4 Int, -6 Wis.
+7 Natural Armor, Breath Weapon (2d6 cone of cold, Death Throes, Wings (x2 land, average), Bite & 3 Claws*, +1 level Sorcerer Spellcasting, Blur*, Rage.
^{*Abomination "choices"}

[meyer_william]

Wow ... I hadn't seen some of these templates before .... I'm gonna post some questions to make me look dumb. Sorry for that.

Few things:
1) With one of the rules being no LA+ templates/races until you can buy them off, how are you using them? Or do you consider that the incarnate construct is buying them off so the templates are available? Just curious.
2) You become an incarnate construct through the use of the 9th level spell "Incarnate Construct", which is a spell cast by a (minimum) 17th level caster who expends 5000xp. Shouldn't this cost you (5000xp * 5gp/xp) 25,000 + (17*90) 1530? Which is way more cash than a 1st level character has.
2a) Wouldn't the 9th level spell break the "No spells of a level higher than a typical single-classed character of your level could cast without using early entry cheese (no scroll of alter self at level 2 for instance)." rule? Or would it not count?
3) You seem to be mixing campaigns (FR=Lolth and Eberron=Warforged), not a problem, but if this is correct, can you mention it in your toon writeup?
4) Feral says you need to be a humanoid or monstrous humanoid. Per your post, you are a living construct when you apply that template. Is this legal?

[A_bad_DM]

Wow ... I hadn't seen some of these templates before .... I'm gonna post some questions to make me look dumb. Sorry for that.

Few things:
1) With one of the rules being no LA+ templates/races until you can buy them off, how are you using them? Or do you consider that the incarnate construct is buying them off so the templates are available? Just curious.

• Can't really answer for him, but muktidata most likely thought incarnate construct was buying off the templates.

2) You become an incarnate construct through the use of the 9th level spell "Incarnate Construct", which is a spell cast by a (minimum) 17th level caster who expends 5000xp. Shouldn't this cost you (5000xp * 5gp/xp) 25,000 + (17*90) 1530? Which is way more cash than a 1st level character has.
2a) Wouldn't the 9th level spell break the "No spells of a level higher than a typical single-classed character of your level could cast without using early entry cheese (no scroll of alter self at level 2 for instance)." rule? Or would it not count?

• Technically speaking, you need to have been born in a forge that costed a lot more than a level 10 character could pay to be a warforged too, does that mean you can't be a warforged level 1? It just means someone was experimenting and bam!, you're born. I guess it depends on the DM on this one.

3) You seem to be mixing campaigns (FR=Lolth and Eberron=Warforged), not a problem, but if this is correct, can you mention it in your toon writeup?
4) Feral says you need to be a humanoid or monstrous humanoid. Per your post, you are a living construct when you apply that template. Is this legal?

• Actually, there is a race of Warforged in Forgotten Realms that is typed as "Natural Humanoid(Construct)"

[meyer_william]

A_Bad_DM,
Thanks for this ... hadn't known of the FR warforged. This explains how the template stacking worked -- I knew that as confident as he sounded, I had to be missing something.

The issue with the spell though, is that is there a difference between that and getting someone to cast PAO on you at level one -- but list it in your background instead of your WBL? --Either way, I leave it up to him. If he likes it, more power to him

[SorO_Lost]

1. Wild & Proto are +0 Templates. As is Dragonborn (but costs 100gp). The Templates that do increase LA are "bought off" by Incarnate Construct's -2 Adjustment. Unless you interpret -2 (min 0) as being unbankable. Or at the time of application LA was reduced by 2 to a minimum of zero and not "-2". In which case both mine and Multi's are invalid since the +1 Templates and such must be applied after Incarnate. But we're talking Incarnate Construct, usage alone dictates cheese.

2. You can pick your friends but you cannot pick your parents.

2A. I'm not aware of the character in question having any ability to cast a 9th level Spell.

3. Warforged were originally printed in the MM3 which means they are neither Eberron or Forgotten Realms content.

4. Nice catch. Feral is Inherited and must be applied before Incarnate. As a substitute to both of ours, Lolth and Mineral are both acquired. Dragonspawn does not note if it is Acquired or Inherited, don't have the book at this time to read flavor. Plus if Bad_DM is correct, then you can apply Feral or Incarnate to a Warforged regardless of order.

[muktidata]

1. Wild & Proto are +0 Templates. As is Dragonborn (but costs 100gp). The Templates that do increase LA are "bought off" by Incarnate Construct's -2 Adjustment. Unless you interpret -2 (min 0) as being unbankable. Or at the time of application LA was reduced by 2 to a minimum of zero and not "-2". In which case both mine and Multi's are invalid since the +1 Templates and such must be applied after Incarnate. But we're talking Incarnate Construct, usage alone dictates cheese.

You have to have the +2 LA before you use the Incarnate Construct which swipes -2 off of it if you want to end up at +0. You cannot go the other way around: Use IC to give yourself -2 LA and then build it back up afterword, keeping your special qualities/attacks. When Incarnate Construct is applied, you lose everything. I'm talking everything except +3 natural armor and ability score adjustments. No breath weapons to be had, not even claws. Sorry, Soro. That's why I took Dragonborn later, so I could have something - wings/jump bonus. He started feral, was blessed by Lolth along the way, and then hit by the Incarnate Construct spell, which I have never paid attention to anything other than the template portion of savage species for.

Few things:
1) With one of the rules being no LA+ templates/races until you can buy them off, how are you using them? Or do you consider that the incarnate construct is buying them off so the templates are available? Just curious.

Explained.

2) You become an incarnate construct through the use of the 9th level spell "Incarnate Construct", which is a spell cast by a (minimum) 17th level caster who expends 5000xp. Shouldn't this cost you (5000xp * 5gp/xp) 25,000 + (17*90) 1530? Which is way more cash than a 1st level character has.

This is a heavy blow. I'm going to go edit my race. My apologies for never paying attention to the spell line in the template description. Often with DnD, if it looks too good to be true, it's still probably true. But in this case, it really is too good to be true.

2a) Wouldn't the 9th level spell break the "No spells of a level higher than a typical single-classed character of your level could cast without using early entry cheese (no scroll of alter self at level 2 for instance)." rule? Or would it not count?

Indeed.

3) You seem to be mixing campaigns (FR=Lolth and Eberron=Warforged), not a problem, but if this is correct, can you mention it in your toon writeup?

This was answered. I went with the MM3 Warforged specifically because of Lolth-touched.

4) Feral says you need to be a humanoid or monstrous humanoid. Per your post, you are a living construct when you apply that template. Is this legal?

No it is not. I never noticed they weren't humanoids in addition to living constructs. I'm pretty sure at my games they've been hit by Hold Person before. 

I will do a complete overhaul of my character in my original post and try to be legal this time! Thanks for the help, guys! 

[meyer_william]

Runehound in field
CR3

Preknowledge

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General

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You know that there is a large hairless wolf in yet another featureless plain.
This encounter can be had at day or night

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Knowledge Nature DC 12: It is a runehound
Knowledge Nature DC 17: It has reach, DR/Silver, Fast Healing
Knowledge Nature DC 22: It has a spit attack, fast movement, blindsense 500ft

Maps and Area Decriptions:

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One hour from the city, there is another field with a monster.

Monsters

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CR3: Runehound-- From MM3 p145
It has +8 bite (2d6+5 with 10’ reach even though it is medium sized) and +5 ranged touch vile spew (5d6, DC15 ref for half, or web). DR5/silver, fast healing 3, cannot be flanked, blindsight 500’. AC 16 (touch 12). HP 37. It has initiative +2.
+4 fort/+5 reflex/+5 will.

Scoring Metrics

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You win or lose

[JaronK]

A note on Mineral Warrior: gaining this template requires casting a 6th level spell (namely Mineralize Warrior: http://dndtools.eu/spells/underdark--34/mineralize-warrior--3511/ ).  As such, it's really not available to low level characters, as they can't afford paying for the casting of it (note the gp and xp costs in the spell as well).  Sure, you can claim "a Wizard randomly cast this on me for free" but by that logic we could allow PAO'd Rogues running around as Hydras.

JaronK

[muktidata]

I'm updated. Thanks for the accountability, guys! 

I'll see if Rrektor can tackle the CR3 later today.

[meyer_william]

JaronK!!!

You get a billion cool points if you know the next monster I will post.

[muktidata]

A Troglodyte Mineral Warrior wearing Thaalud stone armor? 

[JaronK]

Hah, I totally don't remember.

I'm considering running a specific character I've been playing in real games through this, but he didn't start until level 5 IIRC.  Got another one that started at 6 and is much weaker (and I suspect would die horribly, he's a Dwarf War Axe and Shield wielding Dwarf).

JaronK

[PsyBomb]

Working on a Totemist for this, but I need to know one thing: will all the challenges be combat or could some be skill or social?

[meyer_william]

Per first post, anyone can post any scenario / encounter ... so I would assume that someone will post a skill based challenge. This is why I suggested that we list skills, spells memorized (as well as spellbook/etc), or other things.

I know that there are some coming up for level 5-6 that I am just reposting from many years ago (6-7). I wish I had saved more of them.

To the person who asked about Pathfinder ... If it makes sense ... post it

[PsyBomb]

I'm also the one who asked about PF, would have been interesting but I can stick within the system easier here.

EDIT: Ok, since I get bored on occasion and could use a good flexing of the mental muscles, I'll be running two characters here. I'm not starting either of them yet, because both have a major rules issue that needs adjucating before I get into it.

#1: Though once he was rich, this Human Totemist has forsaken all worldly goods in order to better commune with nature...
-Question: is you use the Human bonus feat to qualify for VoP, but then become Dragonborn (donated ritual components were allowed), and losing the human bonus feat would cause you to lose either the Vow or its prereq... well, you see where I'm going here. Dragonborn is actually more important than VoP here, so if need be he'll go nuts on level 3 while struggling for the first two.

#2: From a far distant land, he found his path here, a Monk unlike any seen before. Without ki, unbound by the rule of law, this Martial Artist lives by his fist and the focused techniques he has mastered...
-Question: this is the Pathfinder class and archetype, though I will be otherwise using purely 3.5 rules (such as one feat every 3 levels instead of every odd, and 3.5 items). Only other exception will be where a bonus feat doesn't exist in 3.5 (such as Medusa's Wrath). This one will be much more of a challenge due to the lack of versatility and relatively low tier, but that's the fun.

Any character approved will be taken through in order by the build, both will be planned out to 20 and simply scaled to the appropriate level. Should be fun.

[meyer_william]

Psybomb:
Question 1:
Per Vow of Poverty, you can beg the material components from party members (however, in this case there are none -- so maybe that is the question) -- so you can build the egg,
Per Dragonborn, if your race gave you a bonus feat (like human does), you can get rid of any feat (in this instance, the bonus feat you gained from VoP -- assuming that text trumps table, which I believe it does).
I don't actually see a question here.
I would ask that you list on your toon the initial need for the 100 gp, as that is the only somewhat questionable thing.

Question 2:
I see no problem with it -- just post a link in your toon to the pathfinder material so as not to confuse people.
BTW ... as far as being a low tier for these aged scenarios that I am posting, a single classed fighter and a single classed barbarian each made their way through all scenarios to level 20 in the gauntlets (single encounter per scenario), so, it is possible.

[meyer_william]

Comment:

I have been messaging some people about issues with their builds and they have been correcting things. People who post, if you don't mind, I'll start posting those messages here so that other people can learn -- unless you object?

(If you object, please put in your post either "No critique wanted" or "Private critique wanted")

Lastly, please include a link to the scenario from your fight description so that when people flip between the encounter and your fight, it is easy to compare notes.