General Discussion and Sugestions

[oslecamo]

Not so much for templates. Things where the undead is the WHOLE class? Would help.

Will work on it then.

So, I was thinking of making the Dokufu a prc of the Monstrous Spider. How does it sound?

I'm not sure, but I don't think I like that...It's a fairly different creature, in my opinion.
Like a mountain dwelling shapechanging hermit with a spider motif. And then the other way around at the same time...
I feel like it could also be a decent pseudo-sorcerer class with a penchant for illusions and mind-effecting stuff. Despite that the original doesn't actually have spellcasting, it technically could be loosely inferred that it is still has like a CL of 20 just from the wording of it's Alternate Form 
And it has an advancement even beyond the HD True Dragons seem to be able to reach so the class could maybe be taken in a way in regards to spiders like how True Dragons are towards normal Dragons...
But that's just my opinion. I do love how incredibly interesting Dokufu come across as
Maybe some inspiration could come from looking at the Jorogumo that I think they're based off of?
Although that would make them seem better as a PrC for Monstrous Spiders.....huh.

Eerr, there's really nothing in OA dokufu that suggests it is a spellcaster. Its only magic ability is the alternate form, and "as CL 20 shapechange" was just common wording for high CR monsters Alternate Form in 3.0.

And as you just pointed out, its inspiration seems  indeed to be the Jorogumo, that is basically a monstrous spider that can turn into an human. It likes to fool people yes, but it does so by transforming into a regular human, not by casting illusions.

Besides if you just want a spellcaster with a spider motiff, there's other ways already available you can accomplish that. Polymorph, werespider, druid with vermin wildshape, you name it. Heck, the Aranea already is a spellcaster spider with an humanoid alternate form that throws webs in a single package!

So you could be an undead Troll by taking 1 level of Troll and 1 level of Undead to be a troll undead with undead immunities.

Or you could be a troll skeleton. Or a troll vampire. Or a troll ghost. Or a troll Death Knight. Or pick monster blooded and monster hybrid and dive into one of the many undead classes.

Or if you consider that a mummy is a completely normal living being that just happens to be wrapped in bandages, well, you don't even need a level for that. Wrap your troll in bandages. Now you have your living troll mummy!

[Anomander]

All valid options.

The immunity level(s) could be put on top of any of those (unless the class already gives enough penalties to counterbalance them at its first level). Already having a level in an undead class could perhaps even be a requirement.
The immunities could even scale with HD for a single level. Its a pretty solid level compared to what many classes get on certain of their first 3 levels.

That way things like 1 level of awakened skeleton wouldn't be giving you the same quality of class abilities and ability score increase as a level in anything else with a bunch of immunities as a bonus, all for the amazingly low price of a single level of bad BaB, fort and ref saves and low skill points without class skills.

As I said, even if a player would choose not to get the immunities, the undead character would still be still undead. Be affected by things that affect undead creatures. Negative energy would still heal it instead of positive energy. It would not count as a living creature for the purpose of things that affect living creatures.

I doubt the immunities being a defining point of being undead is a just argument since many abilities that define certain creatures in many monster classes are not available at first level. Them being part of the undead type doesn't justify it either otherwise the abominations would be getting all their stuff on their very first level instead of getting a little of it all progressively.

[oslecamo]

Ok, been around checking the undead base monster classes.
-Didn't add anything to the ones that get scaling incororeability because even at first level it offers some nice utility.
-Angel of Decay gets Decay Device, that allows it to rot locks and traps and other objects.
-Brain in a Jar already had psionic stuff.
-Defacer gets to disguise as beings whose faces it has stolen.
-Drowned already has swim speed and curse water.
-Entropic Reaper gets an Intimidate bonus while wielding an oversized scythe.
-Ghoul and Wight get Primitive Predator, bonus to hide and move silently while unarmored and not wielding manufactured weapons.
-Nightwalker gets a scaling bonus to all skills whilein darkness.
-Pistol Wraith already gets guns, nuff said.
-Mummy gets bonded servants, aka unseen servants with some tweaks.
-Ulgurstasta has the acid breath at first level, if you don't know how to use it that for utility then I can't help you.
-Vasuthant has unbounded flight right away, and is medium sized and Str-focused, so you can carry the party members across most 1st level terrain obstacles, scout the skies and whatnot.
-Vasuthant gets to disguise as its victims.
-Bloodhulk gets a bonus to Intimidate while bulging up.

I doubt the immunities being a defining point of being undead is a just argument since many abilities that define certain creatures in many monster classes are not available at first level. Them being part of the undead type doesn't justify it either otherwise the abominations would be getting all their stuff on their very first level instead of getting a little of it all progressively.

Get on with the days man. Abominations haven't been a creature type for more than a decade now!

Specific creature abilities may be delayed, but basic creature type abilities are handed out at first level.

[Anomander]

Ah, correct. Some kind of sub-type. Still, if their traits can be delayed, I don't see why these base traits cannot be. Even a creature's size can be delayed.

[ketaro]

Eerr, there's really nothing in OA dokufu that suggests it is a spellcaster. Its only magic ability is the alternate form, and "as CL 20 shapechange" was just common wording for high CR monsters Alternate Form in 3.0.

And as you just pointed out, its inspiration seems  indeed to be the Jorogumo, that is basically a monstrous spider that can turn into an human. It likes to fool people yes, but it does so by transforming into a regular human, not by casting illusions.

Besides if you just want a spellcaster with a spider motiff, there's other ways already available you can accomplish that. Polymorph, werespider, druid with vermin wildshape, you name it. Heck, the Aranea already is a spellcaster spider with an humanoid alternate form that throws webs in a single package!

Pff, I know that. I was just rambling on in a whole bunch of directions.

Edit: I find it pretty terrible that some one is trying to redefine what being Undead means and completely revamp the Type simply because some one else doesn't like that Undead don't get class skills (or even Spot & Listen more specifically) 

[Raineh Daze]

I'm against incremental advancement of the undead type, simply as it means you can't play an undead from first level; you need to spend a precious two levels picking up immunities (and wouldn't that be wasted once mind blank, death ward, and fortification are available) but nothing else for it. 3 HD to play a human skeleton with no other abilities is far too much. :/

[Anomander]

As I said, yes you could.
Just take take your undead class levels without investing in the one or two levels (again, doesn't have to be 2 levels) to get the immunities. Especially if you don't care about them and would rather rely on mind blank, death ward and fortification.
You'd actually get some skill points and maybe a better BAB too instead.
Same reason you'd get a ring of evasion instead of the second level of Rogue/Monk.

[Raineh Daze]

The problem is, this seems like cheating. Yes, these abilities are available elsewhere--but should I really be relying on cash expenditure when I could be getting the same things just by a side effect of levels?

Os has altered undead so all have something to offer outside of conflict; the discussion is more or less ended. It's not a case of utility-vs-immunity; now it's just 'is it worth altering all undead to take account of a two level dip to gain immunities' rather than just ignoring the suggestion.

Just doesn't seem worth the effort.

[Anomander]

The problem is, this seems like cheating. Yes, these abilities are available elsewhere--but should I really be relying on cash expenditure when I could be getting the same things just by a side effect of levels?

Hey, you pointed this out. If now you have a problem with your own argument then just get the level for the immunities instead. If you really want a side effect of levels, it could be that for each level in an undead class, you get an immunity of your choice from the trait list of immunities instead of all of them at once. Even easier to implement with a simple rule similar to how size increases/decreases are handled: a clause about undead/construct traits in the "Introduction and FAQ-Read this first!" thread.

Os has altered undead so all have something to offer outside of conflict; the discussion is more or less ended.

So he buffed something that was already too good because the original problem was that the penalties he chose to begin with weren't appropriate and the skills he penalized have an utility zone of their own.
As he said himself:

It's my opinion that undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty, thus weak Bab and only one good save. But those are hardly drawbacks when undeads are immune to most things that demand saves and more often than not have very dangerous natural weapons and/or touch attacks. Thus, no class skills. Also, they're undeads, their brains are long rotten if they have them at all.

And I heartily agree that they are hardly drawbacks for the gains. He removed class skills in addition for that reason and now he's buffing them a bit because this drawback was apparently not fitting because of their out of combat utility.

Which is why I'm saying that adjusting the balance of the immunities with something else is a better fix, and actually pretty easy to implement.
I could do it.

[Raineh Daze]

Er, no? My opinion has always been that in-combat defences are not a logical offset for being no more than talkative rotting flesh outside of it. Like for like: combat bonuses should be offset by combat penalties. Combat bonuses offset by out of combat uselessness just ensures wasting time when ability to pummel things isn't needed--you know, everything wrong with T4 and T5 classes.

[Anomander]

When I spoke of your argument, I referred to what you just said prior to that post.
"Instead of immunities for a level, just get stuff like mind blank, death ward, and fortification once they are available and then its like you wasted your level."
Followed by: "Getting equipment to replace the immunities is like cheating... I'd rather get them with my levels."

Either way, the suggested measures seem appropriate to address the issue that "undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty" and that the current penalties is not enough/appropriate for a single level in an undead class that already offers other abilities.

The suggested measures are:
- 1 or 2 level to get undead/construct immunities. They would grant bab/saves/skills as per one undead/construct monster class that has already been taken, the undead/construct immunities (either scaling for one level by getting a few every HD, half of them each level over two levels or all of them for 1 level at once) and a +1 ability score increase in an ability that is progressed in an undead/monster class that was already taken (sort of like the Monster Blooded feat).
- Every level in a undead/construct monster class grants 1 of their trait immunities. That way a level dip doesn't give everything for no real penalties.

[oslecamo]

It's my opinion that undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty, thus weak Bab and only one good save. But those are hardly drawbacks when undeads are immune to most things that demand saves and more often than not have very dangerous natural weapons and/or touch attacks. Thus, no class skills. Also, they're undeads, their brains are long rotten if they have them at all.

And I heartily agree that they are hardly drawbacks for the gains. He removed class skills in addition for that reason and now he's buffing them a bit because this drawback was apparently not fitting because of their out of combat utility.

Which is why I'm saying that adjusting the balance of the immunities with something else is a better fix, and actually pretty easy to implement.
I could do it.

Yes, it would be easy to implement. Yes, you could do it.

But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.

Besides, the whole point of this classes was that things would come in convenient packages. Not modular "create your own monster" bits where you can just pick the abilities you're interested and throw the rest out of the window. That's for what templates are for, and that's why I put the multiclassing restriction for base monster classes in there in the first place.


The abilities I now added don't really rise the undeads power level that much, since they provide utility whitout allowing to unlock  cheesy skill stuff.

EDIT:Also sorry, edited your last post while trying to quote, it should be back to its original form now.

[Anomander]

But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.

Are you sure?
Many monsters have a level where they only get DR/SR or some defensive ability. Getting a bunch of immunities doesn't sound boring.  Looking at a random undead: Entropic Reaper. Yep. One level has only defensive abilities in Reapers warding. It is already like this. Some levels grant utility, some grant offensive abilities, others defensive abilities. Sometimes a mix of them.
And there is nothing wrong with that.

Besides, the whole point of this classes was that things would come in convenient packages. Not modular "create your own monster" bits where you can just pick the abilities you're interested and throw the rest out of the window. That's for what templates are for, and that's why I put the multiclassing restriction for base monster classes in there in the first place.

Aye, but the package is way too convenient. Technically its always a "create your own monster" since you can just get the first few levels you want and jump on something else, like classes and templates. If having the choice on the immunities is a problem, then the order they are acquired could always be the same, giving a convenient package each level instead of one big thing at the first level with penalties that you only really suffer if you stay for many levels into the class.

Also, as you say, this is different with templates. The convenient package you want for the base monster classes is given to them too. One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either. The suggested measures are especially meaningful to them.

[FireInTheSky]

I think it's more about 1st level than just "this random single level doesn't have any out-of-combat utility, only passive defensive stuff." If you're starting at 1st level, you have Undead Immunities, a slam attack, and... that's it. No skill points, no other abilities, nothing whatsoever to offer out of combat. Are you really gonna play that monster?

The abilities I now added don't really rise the undeads power level that much, since they provide utility whitout allowing to unlock  cheesy skill stuff.

And it seems this is now fixed, so, are we done arguing?

[Anomander]

If you're starting at first level, you have whatever the first level of the undead monster class/template grants you, minus all the immunities (except perhaps a few), plus perhaps a better BAB and skill points w/class skills.

If you want to play an Awakened Skeleton human. Would you be disinterested by that monster if it stopped giving all the undead immunities except maybe 1-2, say, sleep effects and diseases for having a single undead level in something (especially nothing in an actual base undead monster class).
You'd still play an undead monster that doesn't register as a living creature, get healed by nega energy instead of positive energy and so on,  two claw attacks, STR mod to natural attacks, cold resistance equal to HD, DR/bludgeon equal to half HD, a The Skeleton Dance ability of your choice and +2 to Dex. Now with maybe 1 bab, 4+int skill points and some class skills.

Pretty good for one level. I don't find it boring compared to the current one.

Not sure how you otherwise got that first level undead with immunities format. It doesn't fit the level option I suggested.

[FireInTheSky]

I wasn't talking about your suggestion, I was talking the way Osle's classes currently work, and Raineh's (and others') original complaint.

[oslecamo]

But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.

Are you sure?
Many monsters have a level where they only get DR/SR or some defensive ability. Getting a bunch of immunities doesn't sound boring.  Looking at a random undead: Entropic Reaper. Yep. One level has only defensive abilities in Reapers warding. It is already like this. Some levels grant utility, some grant offensive abilities, others defensive abilities. Sometimes a mix of them.
And there is nothing wrong with that.

Actually, that's more of the entropic reaper being in serious need of a complete overhaul. 5th level for just DR/SR is seriously lagging behind.

Nonundead classes may be getting levels in which they tecnically only get defensive abilities, but they're usually also gaining Bab and a nice amount of skill points.

Besides, the whole point of this classes was that things would come in convenient packages. Not modular "create your own monster" bits where you can just pick the abilities you're interested and throw the rest out of the window. That's for what templates are for, and that's why I put the multiclassing restriction for base monster classes in there in the first place.

Aye, but the package is way too convenient. Technically its always a "create your own monster" since you can just get the first few levels you want and jump on something else, like classes and templates. If having the choice on the immunities is a problem, then the order they are acquired could always be the same, giving a convenient package each level instead of one big thing at the first level with penalties that you only really suffer if you stay for many levels into the class.

You still didn't explain why you want people to have to burn 3 levels to replicate a CR 1 monster. Or 9 levels to replicate a CR 7 monster. Or 2+X levels to replicate a CR X monster.

Also, as you say, this is different with templates. The convenient package you want for the base monster classes is given to them too. One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either. The suggested measures are especially meaningful to them.

Template undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.

[Anomander]

But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.

Nonundead classes may be getting levels in which they tecnically only get defensive abilities, but they're usually also gaining Bab and a nice amount of skill points.

Exactly. That's precisely what I'm saying.

You still didn't explain why you want people to have to burn 3 levels to replicate a CR 1 monster. Or 9 levels to replicate a CR 7 monster. Or 2+X levels to replicate a CR X monster.

I already did.
They get too much stuff on their first level.

I said many times already that it doesn't have to be 2 extra levels. Like, many times.
It could progress along their undead/constuct monster level progression.
The 1 or 2 undead/construct prestige class levels is another option to compensate for those classes without enough levels to grant everything the monster has to offer at an appropriate level. But again, those could instead grant scaling immunities over HD (scaling immunity to crits could be a rising %), unless they are templates, in which case they could rise by levels in undead/construct template classes instead of HD.

Template undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.

Whats more penalizing: 2 feats to get a single level in an undead/construct monster class to multiclass with your other monster class because you want to dip a level for a big package of immunities or just keep your Con low at 10 (a modifier of 0 still sounds like a dump stat to me) and take a level dip for the same big package of immunities?
It simply doesn't change the point I've made in the text you quoted: "One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either."

[GuesssWho]

Does the Aboleth class treat Savant Aboleth as a PrC? What about other [species]-only classes?

[oslecamo]

As long as you take all the levels in the "base" monster, you count as it for qualifying for that kind of prcs yes.

But it would only make things worst. Now you have  levels that gives only passive defenses. No natural weapons, no movement modes, that's it. Which is plain boring.

Nonundead classes may be getting levels in which they tecnically only get defensive abilities, but they're usually also gaining Bab and a nice amount of skill points.

Exactly. That's precisely what I'm saying.

You still didn't explain why you want people to have to burn 3 levels to replicate a CR 1 monster. Or 9 levels to replicate a CR 7 monster. Or 2+X levels to replicate a CR X monster.

I already did.
They get too much stuff on their first level.

Thus penalties to make up for all that extra stuff. Making a monster take the same amount of levels than their CR is the core foundation of this project.

Progression of immunities along levels isn't really an option when many undeads have only 2-4 levels to work with.

Progression trough HD is reserved for things that go completely out of scale. An ethereal creature auto-wins  99% of the problems of low levels, thus HD scaling. Tiny/large creatures bonus kinda break the RNG at first level as well. Undead immunities are pretty darn good, but not that good that there's no option but delaying them. After all, low level non-ethereal undeads are quite appropriate challenges to the PCs.

Template undeads demand 10+ Con score to take. Base undead classes don't, so you have the advantage of being able to dump your Con to the bottom and putting those stats somewhere else.

Whats more penalizing: 2 feats to get a single level in an undead/construct monster class to multiclass with your other monster class because you want to dip a level for a big package of immunities or just keep your Con low at 10 (a modifier of 0 still sounds like a dump stat to me) and take a level dip for the same big package of immunities?
It simply doesn't change the point I've made in the text you quoted: "One level in an undead/construct template and you're set. No real multiclassing restriction. No real counterbalance either."

Just because you consider 10 a dump stat, doesn't mean that you can't tank it even further down. Starting with a base undead class easily allows you to squeeze an extra +2 or +4 to your other ability scores over a template undead class.