General Discussion and Sugestions

[oslecamo]

Just an heads up, RL stuff keeps happening and I've got plenty of work on my hands. Right now chances are that I'll only be able to properly update anything around here in in 2016. I'll just wish you a good holydays, merry Christmas and a great new year in advance.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

As long as you don't mind having to shift through all my unbalanced OP stuff I make after 

[Rakoa]

Merry Christmas!

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Note to myself to make Else Creatures, based on the Elsewhale.
And then a When creature epic template class,so I can have Elsewhenwhales

[VennDygrem]

Question: When not otherwise specified, is natural weapon damage given for a medium-sized creature or for a creature of the size the monster is assumed to have achieved? For instance, if you gain a trample attack at 10th level but grew one size at 8th level. Is it assumed the monster grew, even if the player took the option to not grow and instead took the +2 to a physical ability score? There are some monsters with Growth at several levels, making it somewhat important to our keep track of natural weapon dice.

--edit--
Perhaps this wasn't the best place to post this question, since it seems to have been overlooked...

[oslecamo]

Question: When not otherwise specified, is natural weapon damage given for a medium-sized creature or for a creature of the size the monster is assumed to have achieved? For instance, if you gain a trample attack at 10th level but grew one size at 8th level. Is it assumed the monster grew, even if the player took the option to not grow and instead took the +2 to a physical ability score? There are some monsters with Growth at several levels, making it somewhat important to our keep track of natural weapon dice.

Natural weapon damage given in a monster class assume that the monster grew whenever possible by the class.

Added to the FAQ.

--edit--
Perhaps this wasn't the best place to post this question, since it seems to have been overlooked...

It was, just busybusybusy.

[~Corvus~]

Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.

[FireInTheSky]

Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.

If you quote this post, you'll see the way I had mine set up. It just got to be too much work for me to keep up with these things. I'm not sure if you're  trying to do something similar, but if you want, I can PM you the Excel file from wherever I left off

[~Corvus~]

Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.

If you quote this post, you'll see the way I had mine set up. It just got to be too much work for me to keep up with these things. I'm not sure if you're  trying to do something similar, but if you want, I can PM you the Excel file from wherever I left off

Send me the file; I'll take it on!

[FireInTheSky]

Trying to parse together a sortable table, but the headings aren't working well. Bugger all.

If you quote this post, you'll see the way I had mine set up. It just got to be too much work for me to keep up with these things. I'm not sure if you're  trying to do something similar, but if you want, I can PM you the Excel file from wherever I left off

Send me the file; I'll take it on!

Whoops. Forgot to actually link the post in question. Here it is.

In any case, PM sent.

[Nanshork]

I've updated all of my entries with the fancy tables I made on the other mmf.  I've got multiple missing pictures, I'm not happy about that.

[Versatility_Nut]

So, I notice that there's not an actual Animated Object monster class, just an Awakened one. And Awakened, itself, lacks a monster class, even though several of the Awaken spells give permanent HD. Some of them just make creatures from scratch. It'd be a great choice for a general monster PRC that isn't an outright template. As for what to do with Awakened, I can come up with the following right away:

3 level class
+4 Int each level
Nonability/below 2 Int prerequisite
d10 HD
3/4 BAB
Strong Fort/Will saves
Legacy Champion style progressing what's already there
4+Int skill ranks

Basically, you get a good chassis and 12 Int with one or two levels of progressing parts of what you already have. Parts being important, selecting a limited number of features to add levels of progression to rather than a whole class.

---

As for Animated Object, these are the ideas I can whip up right away:

3/4 BAB, as they are bruisers and therefore deserve decent hitting-things ability
Options at 1st level for material, restricted to basic ones like wood and steel
Hardness of material being split between hardness and regular DR
Getting to select properties off a list throughout leveling, like PF
Growth with option of getting a Swarm instead of size or stat

So, comments on the basic ideas here? I'll wait for comments before I actually do anything, because editing tables is... painful.

[Nanshork]

Did you notice that Animated Object has both a race and a class?  Also, the animated object would have to be Awakened because PCs require an intelligence score. 

I'm also not sure how Os will feel about a generic Awakened prestige class where there are at least ten Awakened (xxx) classes already created.

[Versatility_Nut]

Did you notice that Animated Object has both a race and a class?  Also, the animated object would have to be Awakened because PCs require an intelligence score. 

I'm also not sure how Os will feel about a generic Awakened prestige class where there are at least ten Awakened (xxx) classes already created.

Let me list some problems. From size modifiers for being Tiny, they have -8 Strength, which, with the -2 racial, menas they have 0 strength on average, and get +4 Dex, with another +2 from racial. And have 50 ft. move if they are bipedal from the race, regardless of size, at the "cost" of being able to be tripped. As opposed to 40 ft. move when they can't be tripped, which is still faster than the typical party member. Wheels give 80 ft. move at the low cost of not getting to use Climb or Jump, rendered irrelevant by being able to grab Flight at 1st level and have proper flight at 3 HD. 40 ft. speed Clumsy flight, due to being half land speed, meaning that they are still moving faster than the rest of the party while flying. Or swimming or climbing, if they pick one of the other options.

At 3rd level, they can carry the entire party by having the Box option and taking all the Growth choices they get for being level three. One member can use them as a mount, the other two can ride inside with cover and be able to fight back. Oh, and Construct traits give Large Constructs 30 extra HP, meaning average HP for this creature at ECL 3 is 56 HP. 10 from maxed first HD, 11 for 2d10 average, 30 for Large Construct. Oh, wait, there's another three HP for Objective Object, meaning it's 59 HP at ECL three. With the ability to have two Medium-sized party members inside with cover and able to take advantage of the bloated move speed to have a battle bus that can fly faster than they can walk. Which, due to Strength and size modifiers, is probably dealing upwards of 20 damage per attack itself. Let's see... +8 Str size modifier, +5 Str from the class, -2 from the race, which means +11 Strength. x1.5 for Slam means 16.5 and then 3.5 for average roll, meaning that it actually is dealing 20 damage on average. At ECL 3. While having 59 HP, on average.

So... I do believe that it needs an overhaul.

In regards to a generic Awakened class, it can be useful for someone who wants to use a mindless creature that doesn't have one of these classes, or for people who want to use only a small subsection of the classes and the DM is picking them based on having a rebalanced LA to handle the ECL problems, like a certain thread series by a user with the name of Inevitability over on Giant in the Playground. Or they want to turn their skeletal Orcs into decently intelligent minions, which the Awaken Undead spell doesn't allow by capping at the racial average.

Semi-generic classes for certain common changes work out fairly well for this purpose. A one-size-fits-all Awaken PRC wouldn't work out well, it's too general, but one for each commonly-eligible creature type, as in Ooze, Vermin, Construct, Undead, Animal and Plant, would certainly make things less crazy and more open. Slight subdivisions through AFCs allows you to tune it a bit better.

[Raineh Daze]

It's worth noting that none of Os's classes use the creature advancement stat modifiers to size.

For good reason. I think Os'd have an issue if just by using his classes and no particular effort I ended up with 72 STR, 54 CON, and a bonus +14 Natural Armour BEFORE the common tendency to base NA off those stats came up. On the flip side, it makes small characters playable. Yes, this would be a serious issue with one character I have--the classes hand out ability improvements already, and you can choose to not grow or avoid taking growth options, so they can't be removed easily without creating weird size splits.

Remember--that table is a guide for improving monsters as given in the rulebooks. If you want to make a monster go from large to huge? Here's a rough guide on appropriate stat improvements.

[Nanshork]

For Awakened Construct, if you have concerns but you believe that the existing one can be fixed the best way to address it would be to post in that thread about what your concerns are.  As a board we don't have any issues with thread necromancy.

If you think it is unsalvageable and want to make your own version, that's allowed also.


As to the generic class idea, we've got 11 awakened animals, a handful of awakened constructs, some awakened oozes, and some awakened undead including skeletons and zombies (counting is too much effort because nobody has awakened in their index listing).  Referencing GitP doesn't mean anything to me because I only go over there to look at homebrew and even that is rare lately.  There is an Anthropomorphic Animal class so there's some precedence, I'm just not sure how you would go about it in a way that's drastically different from what we've got.


Also, Raineh has a point that I missed.  The ONLY ability score modifiers that apply are the ones that are explicitly listed.  The Animated object's size has no impact on its ability scores, it gets -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Int and -2 Cha as listed.  That's it.

[Versatility_Nut]

It's worth noting that none of Os's classes use the creature advancement stat modifiers to size.

For good reason. I think Os'd have an issue if just by using his classes and no particular effort I ended up with 72 STR, 54 CON, and a bonus +14 Natural Armour BEFORE the common tendency to base NA off those stats came up. On the flip side, it makes small characters playable. Yes, this would be a serious issue with one character I have--the classes hand out ability improvements already, and you can choose to not grow or avoid taking growth options, so they can't be removed easily without creating weird size splits.

Remember--that table is a guide for improving monsters as given in the rulebooks. If you want to make a monster go from large to huge? Here's a rough guide on appropriate stat improvements.

Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.

The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.

And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.

So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.

[Raineh Daze]

It's worth noting that none of Os's classes use the creature advancement stat modifiers to size.

For good reason. I think Os'd have an issue if just by using his classes and no particular effort I ended up with 72 STR, 54 CON, and a bonus +14 Natural Armour BEFORE the common tendency to base NA off those stats came up. On the flip side, it makes small characters playable. Yes, this would be a serious issue with one character I have--the classes hand out ability improvements already, and you can choose to not grow or avoid taking growth options, so they can't be removed easily without creating weird size splits.

Remember--that table is a guide for improving monsters as given in the rulebooks. If you want to make a monster go from large to huge? Here's a rough guide on appropriate stat improvements.

Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.

The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.

And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.

So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.

You forgot Reach, Swallow, Trample, and every single other attack under the sun that benefits being larger--not least the whole Titanic Creature template. In the vast majority of cases, the classes that get larger have some direct ability benefiting from being larger and at worst have the strength and con increases anyway to make it a null investment. And this is before considering the classes that get size increases and can wield weapons.

A 1d12 greataxe is neat and all, let's take it to colossal. That's 6.5 average damage per hit. Colossal is 8d6. That's an average of 28. So, on average, we're looking at a +22 for a -8 to hit. That's better than power attack. You can use it whilst completely out of reach, too. Most maneuvers are totally useless because of the inherent strength bonuses of likely classes and the +16 size modifier. Pack a little something for AoO's and you're in a great spot without inflating AC.

Don't underestimate what size can do.

[ketaro]

Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.

The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.

And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.

So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.

Honestly, none of that is taking into account, as far as I can tell, the actual powerful class features of the monster class as potentially being there to help offset the negatives.

[oslecamo]

So, I notice that there's not an actual Animated Object monster class, just an Awakened one. And Awakened, itself, lacks a monster class, even though several of the Awaken spells give permanent HD. Some of them just make creatures from scratch. It'd be a great choice for a general monster PRC that isn't an outright template. As for what to do with Awakened, I can come up with the following right away:

3 level class
+4 Int each level
Nonability/below 2 Int prerequisite
d10 HD
3/4 BAB
Strong Fort/Will saves
Legacy Champion style progressing what's already there
4+Int skill ranks

Basically, you get a good chassis and 12 Int with one or two levels of progressing parts of what you already have. Parts being important, selecting a limited number of features to add levels of progression to rather than a whole class.

As for Animated Object, these are the ideas I can whip up right away:

3/4 BAB, as they are bruisers and therefore deserve decent hitting-things ability
Options at 1st level for material, restricted to basic ones like wood and steel
Hardness of material being split between hardness and regular DR
Getting to select properties off a list throughout leveling, like PF
Growth with option of getting a Swarm instead of size or stat

So, comments on the basic ideas here? I'll wait for comments before I actually do anything, because editing tables is... painful.

Basic outline seems fine, but you seem to have a series of misunderstandings about how monster classes work around here.

Let me list some problems. From size modifiers for being Tiny, they have -8 Strength, which, with the -2 racial, menas they have 0 strength on average, and get +4 Dex, with another +2 from racial.

Improved Monster classes don't get any stat changes for size. That is explained on the FAQ. Plus I would like to point out small core races like halflings don't get any stat extra stat changes.

And have 50 ft. move if they are bipedal from the race, regardless of size, at the "cost" of being able to be tripped. As opposed to 40 ft. move when they can't be tripped, which is still faster than the typical party member. Wheels give 80 ft. move at the low cost of not getting to use Climb or Jump, rendered irrelevant by being able to grab Flight at 1st level and have proper flight at 3 HD. 40 ft. speed Clumsy flight, due to being half land speed, meaning that they are still moving faster than the rest of the party while flying. Or swimming or climbing, if they pick one of the other options.

At 3rd level, they can carry the entire party by having the Box option and taking all the Growth choices they get for being level three. One member can use them as a mount, the other two can ride inside with cover and be able to fight back. Oh, and Construct traits give Large Constructs 30 extra HP, meaning average HP for this creature at ECL 3 is 56 HP. 10 from maxed first HD, 11 for 2d10 average, 30 for Large Construct. Oh, wait, there's another three HP for Objective Object, meaning it's 59 HP at ECL three. With the ability to have two Medium-sized party members inside with cover and able to take advantage of the bloated move speed to have a battle bus that can fly faster than they can walk. Which, due to Strength and size modifiers, is probably dealing upwards of 20 damage per attack itself. Let's see... +8 Str size modifier, +5 Str from the class, -2 from the race, which means +11 Strength. x1.5 for Slam means 16.5 and then 3.5 for average roll, meaning that it actually is dealing 20 damage on average. At ECL 3. While having 59 HP, on average.

So... I do believe that it needs an overhaul.

Construct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.

In regards to a generic Awakened class, it can be useful for someone who wants to use a mindless creature that doesn't have one of these classes, or for people who want to use only a small subsection of the classes and the DM is picking them based on having a rebalanced LA to handle the ECL problems, like a certain thread series by a user with the name of Inevitability over on Giant in the Playground. Or they want to turn their skeletal Orcs into decently intelligent minions, which the Awaken Undead spell doesn't allow by capping at the racial average.

Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.

Still a prc to "smart up" monsters is something I see as viable (at least as viable as prcs for making them physically stronger and whatnot). What I have trouble seeing is a fair way to apply it to mass produced minions.

Semi-generic classes for certain common changes work out fairly well for this purpose. A one-size-fits-all Awaken PRC wouldn't work out well, it's too general, but one for each commonly-eligible creature type, as in Ooze, Vermin, Construct, Undead, Animal and Plant, would certainly make things less crazy and more open. Slight subdivisions through AFCs allows you to tune it a bit better.

I have to admit I like the way you talk.

Well, part of my problem is that there's two such tables. If we use the one that is referred to by the Enlarge Person spell, which is very different from the one I was looking at, which just causes massive issues, then they become incapable of hitting things very quickly, breaking them in the other direction. For example, Large creatures get -1 to attack and AC, while Huge ones get -2. Gargantuan creatures get -4. The setup is very much built around getting modifiers to offset the penalties directly, but that's not part of the table for characters. Enlarge Person doesn't increase your attack bonus at all, that +2 Strength is only offsetting the penalty for being large.

The Growth function increasing Strength as an alternative to increasing size means that staying smaller is always better unless you are actively carrying things, grappling, or have abilities requiring size to function. Because without the modifiers for increasing size as a monster, you will only ever lose AC and attack roll bonus for getting bigger. Constructs have a bit of mercy in that they get extra HP based on size as a fact of the creature type, so my issue with 59 HP for no real investment at 3rd level still holds true. Although you are also losing 3 AC and, like, +6 attack bonus and +3 damage over staying Tiny. Being Tiny has very large benefits and not many disadvantages if we ignore the monster table.

And if you think having nearly twice the health of a raging Barbarian for +6 Attack is a fair trade, this is only for Constructs. Non-Constructs will get literally nothing in terms of durability improvements from going up in size, according to the character size change table. Non-constructs, in fact, get exactly three upsides: Damage die increases, reach and Grapple modifier. The Monster table, meanwhile, is getting 14 NA for Medium to Colossal. And losing 4 Dex. And 8 Attack bonus and AC. So -10 Touch AC for +4 regular AC. It gets a lot of Strength, yes. Medium to Colossal is +32 Strength. Diminutive to Medium is +10 Strength with a -4 to Attack and AC from size, with another -3 to Touch AC from size. And no Natural Armor to show for it, so that +4 regular AC from Medium to Colossal becomes -3 to regular AC, for +9 to attack and +21 damage.

So even with the monster size increase table, it's still better to stay small. At most, you would want to go to Medium or Large for the sake of damage dice, and even that's iffy because of just how big size modifiers are and the balance point of the game.

The growth table to be used with improved monster classes is in the Introduction/FAQ thread.

And as already mentioned size increases greatly improve weapon die damage, and several monster classes grant extra bonus for being bigger than your opponent, the titanic creature particularly. Otherwise yes I agree that being bigger is usually a sucker's bet in 3.X edition since you mostly get easier to hit and even easier to hit with spells. But again what's why I do things like the titanic creature.