It's a logical thing for the BBEG to do, but it'll probably make the players mad

[ksbsnowowl]

My 18th level PC's have gotten on the bad side of the Unseelie Court, but have thus far resisted all attempts to have them captured or killed.  For the PC's, about five months have passed, but due to the different rate of flowing time in the Faerie Court, it's only been five or six days for the Unseelie Princess.  Thus far, she's found the PC's to be an infuriating diversion, and has contented herself with sending lackeys to capture the PC's and bring them (or their heads) before her.

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For the Unseelie court I am using evil versions of Eladrin outsiders who have the Shadow Creature template from Lords of Madness.  They also have lots of fey courtiers, such as Masters of the Hunt (MM5) at their disposal.  The PC's are in a bind as far as a "final solution" to the problem, because the Seelie and Unseelie have dual natures, so if the kill the Unseelie Princess who wants them dead, they'll also be killing the Seelie Princess who is their ally.

After the last attempt to capture them (a coordinated Wild Hunt was called, and they were subjected to five encounters in one day, with the last being a Master of the Hunt and his hounds), the PC's resorted to escaping and casting Mind Blank on each of themselves to prevent the Master of the Hunt from being able to using his Discern Location ability on them.  Once the Unseelie Princess "wakes" and the Master of the Hunt reports back to her (though the PC's have enlisted the help of a good Master of the Hunt to help them hunt down the one that tried to kill them) and she learns they are becoming even more powerful and difficult to hunt, she'll have to resort to one of two other methods:

1) I could give the Unseelie Court the Claw of the Revnancer artifact from The City of the Spider Queen.  The Unseelie then trick the PC's into murdering someone (they know the PC's typical stomping grounds), then use the revnant they create from the corpse to learn where the PC's are (Revenants have a "find the guilty" ability and always know the direction and distance to their murderers, Mind Blank or not).

2) The Unseelie Princess gets three Ghaele Cleric 3's (cast as Cleric 17) who are in her court to each cast Gate, calling the PC's into her throne room, and commanding them to lay there helplessly (where of course, a dozen or so Tulani are waiting, prepared to pepper the PC's with their Charisma-damaging rays, so they all fall into comas).  She would then keep them around to play with (ie - torture).

The second option is perfectly legal, seemingly immune to immediate action defenses like Greater Mirror Image (though the Iot7FV's indigo veil probably would be able to protect him...), and seems like a logical step for her to take once she tires of the 'game' that is capturing the PC's.  But at the same time, it's also likely to piss off the players (but they're already starting to tie the game in knots, so all's fair in Love and War, right?  Mind Blank + Superior Invisibility = ambushing things that have no way to effectively fight back, makes for a boring DM job, and very little risk to the PC's.

It would of course lead to an eventual escape-attempt, not the end of the campaign.  Maybe use it to take a break from the main campaign, play some lower-level characters in the same world for a while, and then when someone screws up and the PC's come out of their comas, they could break out, fighting their way through the Unseelie stronghold (where all their gear was disbursed to the occupants, so they can get it all back quickly).

I'm just wrestling with this idea.  Like I said, it seems like the logical step for the BBEG to take, but it WILL make my players mad.  But I also feel like I need to pull out the stops; the PC's should succeed, but they shouldn't succeed as easily as they are (there's always a bigger fish, and all that).

Now, the PC's were counseled two sessions ago about the existence of the Clone spell, which could be a permanent solution to their problem (How do you get the Mob off your back when they've put out a hit on you?  You make them think they succeeded in killing you, by giving them an exact duplicate of your corpse.)  But it will take them months to grow the bodies.  I'm thinking of using the Revnant option once or twice after the PC's start the body-growing, then using the Gate option.  Once the PC's escape, their bodies will be ready, and they can set up whatever deception they can come up with.

Is this a bad idea?

[CaptRory]

#2 seems like a real dick move to just drop on them. This might be a good time to bring in another big player that will protect the party... if they do one last big heist. Six months of protection from the Unseelie Court if they... I dunno. The offer could come from the Unseelie Princess herself. If someone can stymie you so badly, they might be the perfect people to hire for a job.

[Bozwevial]

Note that unique beings aren't under a compulsion to come through the calling function of a Gate spell, so you wouldn't automatically force the party members through. Assuming they're all of conventional races, they also don't have the extraplanar subtype unless they're not on the Prime Material plane.

[TuggyNE]

The problem with using gate this way is that there is essentially no possible defense for any non-deity under 34 HD if you interpret "unique" to exclude e.g. PCs. And that's just a bad thing to put in the game, because it basically means that if you have any idea who your enemies are, casting gate pretty much auto-wins, end of story. Not just because you can make your foe helpless, but because you can make them tell you what their defenses and contingencies are before you off them, and then of course go and neutralize those.

The way I'd handle gate itself is to say that any creature with PC class levels (including most significant NPCs, generally) is "unique" for its purposes.

As for this particular bind, using revenants or something else is probably a better option: it gets past some of their defenses but not all of them.

Note that unique beings aren't under a compulsion to come through the calling function of a Gate spell, so you wouldn't automatically force the party members through. Assuming they're all of conventional races, they also don't have the extraplanar subtype unless they're not on the Prime Material plane.

Nothing has the extraplanar subtype if it's on its home plane, which means that by this reading, the only way to gate in a solar or pit fiend or whatever is to find one that's wandering around off its home plane, which usually means one that's under a calling effect from some other caster. Much more sensible to interpret "extraplanar" for this purpose as "not on the plane the spell is being cast" to avoid wacky "you get 17 rounds of utter control over this creature except that 16 of those rounds were spent while it was called away again by someone else's spell, who probably had the same thing happen to them as well".

[ksbsnowowl]

The way I'd handle gate itself is to say that any creature with PC class levels (including most significant NPCs, generally) is "unique" for its purposes.

Yeah, I suppose that's a good idea.  Full disclosure, the idea wasn't originally mine.  It was suggested in a thread that popped up when I googled "mind blank and superior invisibility."

There is another option that was suggested in that thread: Wish to be right next to the desired creature.  That seems to be within the power of Wish, though is more dangerous.  You could probably also bring some friends with you, though.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

I suppose I could use that for a gate-like effect, though.  Still a dick move, but 100% legal, though it does allow Will saves (none of my PC's have SR).  I probably shouldn't use it, though...

[phaedrusxy]

Let them get away with it for a while. Is there some incredibly important reason (plotwise) that they have to be captured right now? Fey live forever. Although the Queen might not like being patient, she can be. It will just give her time to season her anger (and plan her revenge) properly. And having someone like that constantly looking for you certainly adds to the suspense.

Also, there are many more ways to skin a cat than resorting to "Discern Location". The PCs have allies, and at least occasionally must tell someone what they're up to or where they are going. Have a spy or imposter listening in.

Or lure them into traps which will nullify their advantage (a teleport-proof dungeon full of smoke so they can't see, either, etc).

Or have an ambush waiting in a place you know they'll eventually return to (ideally after a battle, like a temple where they go get healing sometimes, etc).

Just some ideas. I know you're a clever DM with a very good knowledge of the rules, but I also know very well how hard it is to challenge high-powered PCs.

[ksbsnowowl]

Let them get away with it for a while. Is there some incredibly important reason (plotwise) that they have to be captured right now? Fey live forever. Although the Queen might not like being patient, she can be. It will just give her time to season her anger (and plan her revenge) properly. And having someone like that constantly looking for you certainly adds to the suspense.

Good points.  I wasn't planning to set this upon the PC's immediately.  I just read of the possibility today, so this was more of a toe in the water "could I...?" kind of post.  Although she does live forever, the PC's have been a fairly big thorn in her side of late, and resulted in her not getting some revenge she wanted to partake in.  Now she wants revenge on the PC's.  She's a bit petty (hey, everyone has to have a flaw), and the PC's are the current target of her petty spite.

Also, there are many more ways to skin a cat than resorting to "Discern Location". The PCs have allies, and at least occasionally must tell someone what they're up to or where they are going. Have a spy or imposter listening in.

This has happened in the past.  It's a little tougher now, since the party Beguiler has Mindsight.  Anyone other than a humanoid would be noticed before they got close enough to (mundanely) listen in.  Still, the dark princess in question has some inherent charming abilities, so sending a Hunter to get some random servant so she can charm or dominate him or her would be right up her alley.

Or lure them into traps which will nullify their advantage (a teleport-proof dungeon full of smoke so they can't see, either, etc).

Or have an ambush waiting in a place you know they'll eventually return to (ideally after a battle, like a temple where they go get healing sometimes, etc).

Energy Transformation Field to the rescue...
That's not a bad idea... I even know how they would arrive - follow someone through an ETF-powered Greater Plane Shift effect (the magic would originate outside the dungeon, so it could still dump them in the predetermined spot inside the ETF dungeon).  Now I just have to figure out why it's there, what its history is.  Did the Unseelie build it, or are they just making use of it...?

It will be like a low-level dungeon crawl; they will only have their current buff spells active. The only possible exception to that would be if the Druid were Wild Shaped into an earth elemental before being teleported into the dungeon; then he could earth glide into a wall and cast spells inside there.  I guess they'll have to be rebar-reinforced walls...  Regardless, it will put them in an interesting position that they will have to explore and fight their way through, until they find the exit.

Heck, I could even put in a Field that triggers a Heal when it gets six levels of spells fed into it.  So they can go out and explore, fight some meat bags that are also trapped there, then come back to recover their hit points, but venturing further and further from that room becomes dangerous.  There can be all sorts of crazy trap rooms; each Field will have to power some sort of spell effect.  Some could be benign, some trap-like, some helpful.

Holy crap, I want to write an entire huge dungeon adventure with this premise.  Since the entire dungeon is covered with the ETF's, there's no point from which you could cast a Limited Wish from outside a field in order to dispel it...  The only flaw is if the PC's have an adamantine weapon, and find the edge of the dungeon, and just start bashing away, tunneling until they get beyond the range of the nearest ETF.

Hmmm..... I need to think on this some more.  Maybe it is an ancient site built by Loki.  It was just a big joke to play on anyone who ticked him off; he'd just dump their ass in that dungeon.  It is of course now "abandoned," because Loki is locked up.

Sadly, I can think of one flaw:  If the PC's tell anyone they are going to check this place out (they have powerful caster friends), the allies could check up on them with a Sending, then use Discern Location, and then open a Gate to where ever the PC's are, and the PC's could escape.  Eventually someone would try to contact them (perhaps weeks later, but eventually) even if they didn't tell anyone beforehand.

I'll have to rig up some sort of trap to get them in the dungeon without any preparations on the PC's part.  Maybe a charmed Halruaan Elder could be used by the Unseelie to set up a trap ETF (with the Greater Plane Shift effect [after having him briefly visit the destination through a Gate, then return before the Gate closed]).  He would have heightened the Greater Plane Shift to 20th level, so the DC would be quite hard to resist.  Something lures the PC's to the center of the ETF, then some fey casters rush in and dump spells into the field to power it.  With the PC's at the center, they would be the ones targeted first by the Plane Shifts...

After battle they usually just heal themselves (damn greater mirror image makes it hard to hit them or even affect them with a targeted spell).

Sorry for my long rambling; you just kicked off a great idea, and I had to work through how to pull it off.

[Unbeliever]

If Super Invisibility Sentai Strike Force Tactics (tm) are annoying to DM, which I would totally appreciate, I would probably start by talking to them about it.  As a player, I have found complaints about monotony and "no fun to DM" very persuasive.  If I'm enjoying the game, I try to at least make some effort to keep the DM happy so the game persists.

Also, re:  Option #2.  I likewise didn't imagine Gate could compel a specific creature to show up.  I'm sure Wish could, though it would probably entail a saving throw.  And, even then, I'm not sure why immediate action defenses like Greater Mirror Image wouldn't help against rays.

This depends a bit on the table you're running for.  But, for a given level of optimization, etc., e.g., the Sentai Strike Force mentioned above, things like contingencies should be floating around to help them out.  You can also make use of them, too, to nullify the PCs' initial alpha strike.  But, my point was that even if the baddies get a free round to wallop them, a contingency might (should?) be there to make it so that it's a disadvantage and not an instant tpk. 

Like I said, though, a lot of that hinges on the table as a whole. 


P.S.:  @Greater Mirror Image.  I have used this spell a lot, and a friend of mine has done a good job as DM at handling it.  In tough combats it often amounts to a baddie wasting an action to demolish the images, usually through an area attack.  That always makes me feel reasonably good about using it, even if it doesn't end up being bulletproof.  If it's annoying you, just throw in an artillerist into the encounter for some mild damage and to wipe out the images.

[phaedrusxy]

IIRC, a FAQ/Sage ruling said Whirlwind Attack could knock out all of the images + hit the caster.

Also, Blind Fight + closing your eyes = only 25% miss chance (much better than your odds against the images)

[ksbsnowowl]

IIRC, a FAQ/Sage ruling said Whirlwind Attack could knock out all of the images + hit the caster.

Also, Blind Fight + closing your eyes = only 25% miss chance (much better than your odds against the images)

I've used both of these somewhat, though I need to use them more.  Great Cleave is just as good as WwA in that regard.

Some of the enemies they'll be facing soon include undead with the Life Sense feat.  Though if the PC's are invisible, it just lets the undead know the PC's are in the area.

Also, re:  Option #2.  I likewise didn't imagine Gate could compel a specific creature to show up.

"By naming a particular being ... as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling."
"If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual..."

You can call specific individuals.

If you name "Bonepick the Troll" to be called, and Bonepick is just a standard MM1 troll, he is called through, no save.  The only contention really is the definition of 'unique,' as "Deities and unique beings" are under no compulsion to come through the gate.  Does a human with a single level of fighter count as a unique being?  I can see the game-play reason why a DM should probably treat it that way, but in reality I can't justify the reasoning.  You can call a pit fiend, but you can't call a first level Human Bard to tell you a story.  (Again, not disparaging the good reasons why a DM might want to treat it that way, but it doesn't make any logical sense at all).  My interpretation of a unique being is something like Illurien from MM5.  "Illurien is a unique native of the Concordant Domain of the Outlands."

I'm sure Wish could, though it would probably entail a saving throw.  And, even then, I'm not sure why immediate action defenses like Greater Mirror Image wouldn't help against rays.

To be clear, what I meant by Greater Mirror Image not working as a defense was against the targeting of Wish.  They could certainly use it against any subsequent attacks after being Wished to a location against their will (assuming they fail the save).

This depends a bit on the table you're running for.  But, for a given level of optimization, etc., e.g., the Sentai Strike Force mentioned above, things like contingencies should be floating around to help them out.  You can also make use of them, too, to nullify the PCs' initial alpha strike.  But, my point was that even if the baddies get a free round to wallop them, a contingency might (should?) be there to make it so that it's a disadvantage and not an instant tpk. 

Like I said, though, a lot of that hinges on the table as a whole. 

Not every bad guy will have access to a contingency, though I have used it a few times in the past.

My PC's have never used Contingency.  They probably would ask what it does if I told them the name of the spell.  Just like they had to ask what Clone did, and Invisibility Purge, etc.  They'd never heard of them before I used them or NPC's suggested their use.

P.S.:  @Greater Mirror Image.  I have used this spell a lot, and a friend of mine has done a good job as DM at handling it.  In tough combats it often amounts to a baddie wasting an action to demolish the images, usually through an area attack.  That always makes me feel reasonably good about using it, even if it doesn't end up being bulletproof.  If it's annoying you, just throw in an artillerist into the encounter for some mild damage and to wipe out the images.

Area affect spells don't get rid of images.  Mirror image itself mentions the images looking burned after being fireballed; this would be impossible if the fireball destroyed the images.  See here.

The next big adventure I've got planned will have lots of Craa'ghoran giant wizards.  I'll definitely be throwing some 4th level lackeys as fodder in with the higher level opponents.  They'll only be Gestalt CR 11 accompaniments to the GCR 19 and 20 main guys; with Practiced Spellcaster, they'll be eliminating mirror images left and right with magic missiles.

[Unbeliever]

Yeah, you could read Unique that way.  So, you can't forcibly gate Bel himself, but you could call a pit fiend named Bob.  That probably makes sense in the literature, though may cause real issues in gameplay.  I mean, the distinction between Bel (unique entry in something like a Monster Manual) and Mordenkainen is what exactly?  It seems like an odd distinction to put a ton of emphasis on. 

Meaning that the 1st level Bard example you cited also runs in reverse.  There might be some CR 1 unique creature who gets this Gate immunity, but the Simbul doesn't.  The whole thing is a bit wonky.

The contingency discussion kind of highlights why you might want to avoid throwing stuff like Gate to shanghai the PCs.  There's a sense where D&D often assumes that PCs are using such abilities, so it is happy to throw in a lot of "you lose, bwaahhaaahhaaa!" abilities into the rules.  If PCs aren't hardening themselves against such possibilities, then they can be sort of harsh.  And, as a matter of personal taste, I kind of prefer not having contingencies, et al. running all over the place.

[ksbsnowowl]

For now, I think I'll stick to the Revenant trick, and sending some more, interesting foes at the PC's (Mistling Fey with Living Spells will be interesting...)

I just have to figure out how I'll get the PC's stuck in that Energy Transformation Field dungeon.  It'll be a fun diversion from the main game, and I'll be sure to build in some healing rooms to help them recover after battles.  It will be interesting to see what kinds of ambushes they work out once they start using the ETF spell effects to their advantage.

[IngloriousBastard]

This reminds me a lot of the situation in Baldur's Gate 2 where you can't cast Arcane Magic in the main city or Cowled Wizards will show up and start attacking.  After so many waves of Wizards, they stop showing up and you can cast Arcane Magic in the city for free instead of paying a bunch of gold.  I think this certainly applies here.  If the NPCs have ticked off the Unseelie Court, but thwart all attempts at capture then the Unseelie Court may need to rethink it's strategies.  Divination Magic can be a powerful thing if you're needing to find someone.  I would play the Unseelie Court using more subterfuge and lure the NPCs into a false sense of security. 

Optimized Disguise and Bluff is really great for this.  In fact you could do something like having the Unseelie Court hire them for some jobs, lying about the motive until they get "corrupted" and work for the Court instead.  Not a bad thing since you actually keep them involved and it's got some great role playing opportunities.

If you really want to "capture them" the best thing to do would be to use some Daring Outlaw optimized rogues with super high sneak and move silent that can dish out major non-lethal damage in a surprise round or enough ability damage to disable them for a bit so you can get them where they need to be.  You could also do this with an optimized grappler if they aren't immune to it.

[Sjappo]

There is power in three. One has three chances to collect a blood debt. But beware! There is no honor in using overwhelming might. And should your attempt to collect the debt fail not once, not twice but three times, the debt is considered reversed.
 
Thus it is written in the Unseele accords.

Or something more elaborate if my English was better.