Author Topic: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!  (Read 19171 times)

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2011, 09:05:59 AM »
I agree with Sorcs mostly getting the shaft compared to wizards. I would fix them, personally, by removing the "level late" condition for all spontaneous casters, AND giving Sorcs 4 skill points per level. In any new game I were to start now cross-class skills wouldn't cost more, so the max limit is the only remaining benefit of class skills. skills are easy to boost, anyway.

But that's basically it.

What interesting things can you do with a Sorc:
- You have good Cha, which means that Dominate Monsters or Planar binding is pretty good for you. You can be the OTHER zookeeper.
- You can build an out-of-the-box gish with Stalwart Battlesorc without CL loss.
- You can multiclass with Paladin (yay) :twitch

Generally, when I think I want to play a sorc I look at a few criteria. The decision I have to make is between Sorc and either Wizard, Beguiler or something completely different.

- Will it be a low-level game? Or at least start at low level? If so, I'll rather play a Beguiler
- Is CoP-cheese allowed? If not, that goes in favour of sorc.
- Do I know the approximate focus of the campaign? this can go either way
- Will there be any secondary benefit to having a Cha-focus? For instance, I very much like the Cha focus of the Dreadnecro, it gives me some good cool to work with.
- Would I not really rather play a Fighter? If so, I'll probably play a sorc.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2011, 09:54:35 AM »
you want to play a sorcerer because at some point a wizard's spellbook will consist of a perverse amount of spells which not every player wants to manage. as a sorcerer you got your known list and that's it.

-> wizard easy to build but hard to play whereas sorcerer hard to build but easy to play.

Offline Shadowhunter

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2011, 10:16:13 AM »
-> wizard easy to build but hard to play whereas sorcerer hard to build but easy to play.

+Infinity. I would rather play a sorcerer in mid-levels (8-14) than a Wizard.
It takes a long time before the Sorcerer have enough spells known to really cover the bases it has to, which I think is a shame, but that's how it is.
One thing I do find ridiculous is the later spell advancement. I adjust that every time I DM.

I'd be hesitant to say that changing their Skill points per level will do anything substantial. The skill system breaks down around level 8 or so.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2011, 10:46:42 AM »
to be honest, i don't think that in the average game, average session you'll ever recognize the difference between a motao sorcerer and a wizard, apart from the circumstance that the player who plays the sorcerer will be ready to go on much earlier. ;-)

Offline SneeR

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2011, 06:07:59 PM »
to be honest, i don't think that in the average game, average session you'll ever recognize the difference between a motao sorcerer and a wizard, apart from the circumstance that the player who plays the sorcerer will be ready to go on much earlier. ;-)

I have to object to this, actually. The whole reason I wrote this article is because, when playing a normal game with a normal sorcerer with normal stats next to a normal wizard in the same party, I felt wholly overshadowed. The wizard could cast the same spells as me (I focused on BFC and illusions) but could also pepper in some some higher-level gems than me when he felt necessary. I put ranks into profession (gambling) with the expectation of going into Fatespinner and I felt like that was such a strain; I could bluff really well, gamble, and use Knowledge (arcana)--that's all I had the ranks for! But the wizard with his 22 INT from being really old had a plethora of skill points, and he was useful all the time, granting information about every old thing and Deciphering Script and whatnot.

Mind you, that was a fifth-level game, where casters are just starting to come out on their own. I still felt overshadowed,t though, like, despite any of my character choices, I was simply operating with a lesser chassis.

Upon closer inspection, I found that to be true, backed by the OP I wrote!
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Offline weenog

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2011, 06:22:06 PM »
So you're upset that the sorcerer can't easily do everything.

Why is it so hard to admit that's what you want, and are feeling small in the pants for not having?  That's what the wizard you're suffering paroxysms of tier envy has over you.  It's the one major difference.  So why say no when it's pointed out?
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
"I doubt she's going to make a DC 111 Fort save, anyway."

Offline SneeR

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2011, 06:54:06 PM »
So you're upset that the sorcerer can't easily do everything.

Why is it so hard to admit that's what you want, and are feeling small in the pants for not having?  That's what the wizard you're suffering paroxysms of tier envy has over you.  It's the one major difference.  So why say no when it's pointed out?

Would you stop saying that!?
And stop likening my feelings on the matter to the size of dicks! It's offensive! :grave

I have already gone over this with you Weenog. Do you want me to rephrase it so you can wrap your head around it, bub?
Here's my desire for sorcerers in one fairly simple sentence for you:

I want sorcerers to be able to do something special, besides casting spontaneously, that the wizard is not touted to be capable of as far as fluff is concerned.

Want me to continue, jack? Well, I think I will.
Almost every other caster has a schtick all its own, supported by mechanics. Clerics are their god's chief disciples, so they heal and turn undead. Beguilers are skill monkeys and sneaky illusion types, so they have cloaked and surprise casting and skill points. Dread necromancers overlap with wizard necromancers, yes, but dread necromancers are touted to be able to do it easier and more flavorfully. Their abilities directly support that notion. Whether any of these mechanics are effective is irrelevant--only the fact that they exist matters, because they are the mechanical means of backing a claim to some fluff.

What are sorcerers?
Sorcerers are wizards, but worse in every way except maybe a few off spells, who happen to cast spontaneously.
There is no mechanically-supported fluff that goes ONE STEP beyond that
except a few ACFs.

THAT is my stance. STOP saying that it is otherwise, and please have the decency to stop it with the crude, offensive comparisons.
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Offline weenog

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2011, 07:22:17 PM »
So you want to be able to do something that the guy who is touted to be able to do everything (hint: everything includes the things you can do) can't, and the things that you can do that he can't (putting the lie to his doing everything, albeit in a small way) don't count.  Gotcha.
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
"I doubt she's going to make a DC 111 Fort save, anyway."

Offline Halinn

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2011, 08:36:51 PM »
So you want to be able to do something that the guy who is touted to be able to do everything (hint: everything includes the things you can do) can't, and the things that you can do that he can't (putting the lie to his doing everything, albeit in a small way) don't count.  Gotcha.

Or maybe just doing something where you don't feel that you're doing it worse than the wizard.

Offline SneeR

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2011, 09:32:48 PM »
Weenog, by inaccurately paraphrasing my argument, you are misrepresenting my argument and making it seem as if you misunderstand my stance. I think, however, that you are being purposefully dense in order to ellicit a response. Since you seem not to be contributing anything to this thread besides said misrepresentations at this point, I am forced to conclude that you are only trolling. Stop saying things without saying anything.

If the sorcerer were exactly like the dread necromancer, except they got none of their undead-based class features, got less skills, and only had a few more spells per day, my stance would be that the sorcerer is shafted in comparison to a dread necromancer, not a wizard. The issue is: this class is like another class, but slighty different, and worse. That should never be the case.

So you want to be able to do something that the guy who is touted to be able to do everything (hint: everything includes the things you can do) can't, and the things that you can do that he can't (putting the lie to his doing everything, albeit in a small way) don't count.  Gotcha.

Or maybe just doing something where you don't feel that you're doing it worse than the wizard.

Thank you for having a brain, Halinn. This is exactly what I mean! I want something to set the sorcerer apart!

I guess I could provide an example of mechanic-based flavor that would make sorcerer's more tasteful to me.

Quote
Overwhelming Arcane Power (Su)
Starting at 5th level, the sorcerer begins to understand his true potential. He can reach levels of power that no creature can resist.
Once per day per 5 sorcerer levels, the sorcerer may take a full-round action to cast one of his sorcerer spells (the casting  time is not increased by adding metamagic components). As part of the casting, he takes 1d6 damage per level of the spell (which does not impede the casting of the spell) as he overexerts himself. When the spell takes effect, he chooses one target of the spell; that target is affected by the spell as if they failed all saves and the sorcerer had overcome any spell resistance, even if it is not so.

See? The PHB says that sorcerers have unmatched arcane power and can be offensive dynamos. This makes that a reality, and suddenly gives people a reason to level as straight sorcerer!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 09:49:28 PM by SneeR »
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Offline betrayor

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2011, 10:40:34 PM »
Weenog, by inaccurately paraphrasing my argument, you are misrepresenting my argument and making it seem as if you misunderstand my stance. I think, however, that you are being purposefully dense in order to ellicit a response. Since you seem not to be contributing anything to this thread besides said misrepresentations at this point, I am forced to conclude that you are only trolling. Stop saying things without saying anything.

If the sorcerer were exactly like the dread necromancer, except they got none of their undead-based class features, got less skills, and only had a few more spells per day, my stance would be that the sorcerer is shafted in comparison to a dread necromancer, not a wizard. The issue is: this class is like another class, but slighty different, and worse. That should never be the case.

So you want to be able to do something that the guy who is touted to be able to do everything (hint: everything includes the things you can do) can't, and the things that you can do that he can't (putting the lie to his doing everything, albeit in a small way) don't count.  Gotcha.

Or maybe just doing something where you don't feel that you're doing it worse than the wizard.

Thank you for having a brain, Halinn. This is exactly what I mean! I want something to set the sorcerer apart!

I guess I could provide an example of mechanic-based flavor that would make sorcerer's more tasteful to me.

Quote
Overwhelming Arcane Power (Su)
Starting at 5th level, the sorcerer begins to understand his true potential. He can reach levels of power that no creature can resist.
Once per day per 5 sorcerer levels, the sorcerer may take a full-round action to cast one of his sorcerer spells (the casting  time is not increased by adding metamagic components). As part of the casting, he takes 1d6 damage per level of the spell (which does not impede the casting of the spell) as he overexerts himself. When the spell takes effect, he chooses one target of the spell; that target is affected by the spell as if they failed all saves and the sorcerer had overcome any spell resistance, even if it is not so.

See? The PHB says that sorcerers have unmatched arcane power and can be offensive dynamos. This makes that a reality, and suddenly gives people a reason to level as straight sorcerer!

Thats way too overpowered....
With this a 8th level sorcerer can kill anything by using Phantasmal Killer.....
He could kill Balors,Great wyrm dragons and others things way too much for his level....
Though I suspect that this feature you posted is more like an example than something that should be used....

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2011, 10:40:46 PM »

Yes, design intent the Sorcerer was to be considerable to the Wizard. He traded the versatility of max spells known at a given time for instantaneous spellcasting. Then was handed more spells to cast but loss a level of spell casting advancement. A design by the people that thought the Monk was a solid class and everyone would have a Fighter at the table.

Later expansions literally gave you negative reasons to play a Sorcerer. Classes that expand on spells known, Dracolexi and Sand Shaper, penalize spellcasting advancement where as classes that give spontaneous casting, Mage Of The Arcane Order (designed as wizard only btw) and Shadowcraft Mage, provide full advancement. Coupled with the many published spontaneous methods ranging from Rune Staffs, Rings of Theurgery, Uncanny Forethought, Chaotic Spell Recall, to the horrible Ultimate Magus. A PrC meant to be a balance of Wizard/Sorcerer directly requires more levels of Wizard than Sorcerer to enter it and though intended mark up actually lets you barely give up any Wizard progression to obtain eight levels of Sorcerer. Even if the spellcasting trade offs were "balanced" between the Sorcerer and the Wizard, why exactly does the Wizard get five more bonus feats? Why so many spells to prepare more spells, recast your spells, or just plain tweak your spells known?

WotC finally got around to publishing Arcane Fusion (more slots per day) and the Wings Of spells (nuke/cover). It bumped the Sorcerer in terms of nuking power, but nothing else. Indeed, the Sorcerer is pushed more and more towards replacing the Warmage than being comparable to the Wizard. Understandably, this is taken as unfair. But this isn't nothing new is said by everyone on the flip side.

It's true.
You think the Barbarian doesn't cry him self to sleep? His trade mark ability can be owned for 5k or less, his theme is published in dozens of better PrCs and items. Even his AFCs are craptastic. More damage on the already game breaking charge? Pfft. And the Samurai? Ha, let's not go there. Remember the Fighter? A Bard wrote a song that went something like "anything you can do everyone else can to better than you" in honor of him. Ninja, Scout, Spelltheif, all shitty classes no one gives a damn about and it's not just none casters. Beguiler & Warmage are crap too. What makes the Sorcerer so different?

Of course, you'll see people trying to make this poor classes useful. Either they like the flavor and willing to take the hit but ask for help keeping up, or they are convinced their class should be useful. Lame as hell Ranger's dipping lame as hell Scout for a d6 more to damage to help their fifty points behind everyone else debt. People thinking Swashbuckler makes a great class if you combine it with Rogue and never PrC out. Or even ignoring rules, logic, and your own points 30 seconds ago in an effort to validate Lore Drake as to canonically "fix" your Sorcerer class. Are prime examples of the latter group of people. The former, the ones that like the class but can get over not being the best of, are the ones that find little gems like Dark Moon Disciple or Battle Casting & Sword Of The Arcane Order. Their not out to validate the class, they just want to keep up enough their choice doesn't hurt the party, because they like the class already and are willing to play as it. Opposed to say, I want the word Rogue in my class feild but he isn't as powerful as the StP Erudite, so I'm going to play a god damn Rogue who's as strong as the god damn Erudite and that's final.

And that's my thoughts on the matter.

Offline veekie

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2011, 12:51:32 AM »
Quote
Of course, you'll see people trying to make this poor classes useful. Either they like the flavor and willing to take the hit but ask for help keeping up, or they are convinced their class should be useful.
Really the crux of the issue, people see something, and its VERY clear it could be better, but simply isn't.
The sorceror packs his 'big guns' of spellcasting, but have basically nothing else at all. Its one of the reasons the PF class rewrites are popular outside the CO community, they often wind up weaker, or screwed up in some other way, but they are packed with the minor abilities and tricks that satisfy. You get the feeling you're gaining something there.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2011, 02:21:01 AM »
Quote
Of course, you'll see people trying to make this poor classes useful. Either they like the flavor and willing to take the hit but ask for help keeping up, or they are convinced their class should be useful.
Really the crux of the issue, people see something, and its VERY clear it could be better, but simply isn't.
The sorceror packs his 'big guns' of spellcasting, but have basically nothing else at all. Its one of the reasons the PF class rewrites are popular outside the CO community, they often wind up weaker, or screwed up in some other way, but they are packed with the minor abilities and tricks that satisfy. You get the feeling you're gaining something there.

Now this is something I don't get. Yes, tecnically its class table is somewhat empty... But they learn two spells in average every level. That's two cool tricks of your choice every level up. How exactly is that considered less exciting than the PF fighter "some of my numbers got better this level up"?

Perhaps people wouldn't complain if the sorceror had flashy names every level like SUPREME HIGH ARCANA (you learn a 9th level spell) or ELDRITCH MASTERY OF THE WARP (learn one 3rd level spell).

Offline veekie

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2011, 03:18:09 AM »
That is about the sum of it yes. Why else do high end branded goods cost some 10 times more than the cheap one, with no improvement in functionality.
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Offline Solo

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2011, 11:10:11 PM »
Well, let me contribute some stuff:

Good prestige classes for Sorcerers :
Fatespinner - for four levels, at least.
Fiend Blooded - for nine levels. This has a typo in the prerequisites, but most DMs will be reasonable enough to adjust it, especially if you show them the example characters in the prestige class description.
Archmage
Red Wizard
Incantatrix
Spellguard of Silverymoon
Shadow Adept
Mage of the Arcane Order
Shadowcraft Mage & Shadowcrafter
Ruathar
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil - Harsh prerequisites, though.
Abjurant Champion
Escalation Mage
Rainbow Servant
Sand Shaper
Recaster
Academy Sorcerer
War Mage

Now, I think we should make a list of things Sorcerers can do well that differentiates them from Wizards.
1. Planar Binding, Leadership, etc. Stuff that benefits from high Cha.
2. Certain spells: Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Spellsurge, Ruin Delver's Fortune, etc.
3. The Divine Companion ACF can be more useful than a familiar.
4. Substitution levels: Dragonblood is good - gives you stuff for free iirc. The Dwarf sorcerer substitution level is hilarious if you combine it with some way of massively increasing your Con score. The words "Shambling Mound" come to mind. Others?
5. Versatile Spellcaster is fun.

What else are there?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 01:00:53 PM by Solo »
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Offline Solo

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2011, 04:13:20 AM »
Come on, people. I know you're out there.
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Offline zugschef

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2011, 11:47:53 AM »
Come on, people. I know you're out there.
academy sorcerer and war mage out of age of mortals are nice prestige classes too. :)

Offline midnight_v

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2011, 04:22:42 AM »
I made that revised sorcerer based on this thread. . . I agree with you that it sucks that any one class is so less optimal than another.
At this point you can really do is homebrew it, or start endorsing a homebrew you like at least.
I hope you had a chance to check what I did out.
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2011, 03:45:27 PM »
I made that revised sorcerer based on this thread. . . I agree with you that it sucks that any one class is so less optimal than another.
At this point you can really do is homebrew it, or start endorsing a homebrew you like at least.
I hope you had a chance to check what I did out.

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