[3.P] Summoner is tier 2 or 3?

[Emanresu]

I thought I was going to see responses telling me that a Druid specializing in summoning is somehow subpar??? IMO I always thought the Druids summons was the strongest available / wide range of selection = a critter for every scenario

[Unbeliever]

...
I agree. Even with Zcerryl, they're still high Tier 3. Of course, arguing about Tiers is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... 

+1 to pretty much all this.  I think the ranking might be weighting the idea that you can have essentially unlimited high level summons all day, but that's the only argument I can figure out for it.  And, as I've mentioned before, I don't see the Tiers system as super helpful to begin with. 

@Emanresu
Druid summoning is awesome.  And, the real benefit they get is that they can "specialize" in that while still being able to do all their other stuff, too.  Summoning + Wild Shape + solid chasis + whatever great spells you can find on a large list is hard to argue with.  You might argue that Summon Nature's Ally is weaker than Summon Monster -- I don't really know, I haven't given it much thought.  Summon Monster tends to net you more funky abilities, and SNA is more things that smash other things, so there might be some merit to that.  But, this is like comparing 100 megaton blast to 150 megaton blast.  Sure, the second one is more powerful, but the city has already been flattened.  In practice, it's probably more of a taste thing than anything else. 

[Emanresu]

Ive always had one eyebrow raised when I hear anybody saying their summons are celestial or fiendish and how cool that is...I think you'd be hard pressed to find a weaker template for same cost but hey thats just IMO. OK Im sure there is a worse template, probably a few but point being celestial/fiendish kinda sucks! Worse yet the alignment restriction on the Summon Monster list narrows what you get. And that to me is the Druids strength - versatility, right tool for right job.....but then again your right you do get "more funky" summons later on

[FlaminCows]

Ive always had one eyebrow raised when I hear anybody saying their summons are celestial or fiendish and how cool that is...I think you'd be hard pressed to find a weaker template for same cost but hey thats just IMO. OK Im sure there is a worse template, probably a few but point being celestial/fiendish kinda sucks!

The celestial/fiendish templates only suck if you have to pay for them. When you summon a monster, there is no cost for the template. On a PC you have to compare it to two class levels, while a Summoned Monster you only have to compare with other summonable creatures. Summon Monster I gets you a celestial owl, which is strictly better than Summon Nature's Ally I's ordinary owl, for example.

[LordBlades]

Ive always had one eyebrow raised when I hear anybody saying their summons are celestial or fiendish and how cool that is...I think you'd be hard pressed to find a weaker template for same cost but hey thats just IMO. OK Im sure there is a worse template, probably a few but point being celestial/fiendish kinda sucks!

The celestial/fiendish templates only suck if you have to pay for them. When you summon a monster, there is no cost for the template. On a PC you have to compare it to two class levels, while a Summoned Monster you only have to compare with other summonable creatures. Summon Monster I gets you a celestial owl, which is strictly better than Summon Nature's Ally I's ordinary owl, for example.

Except sometimes there is a cost.For example black bear, dire bat and dire badger appear on SNA II, but their celestial/fiendish versions on SM III, so in this case the cost is 1 spell level.

[Emanresu]

I know its common for summoners to create "alternate" monster lists to improve quality of critter given differing situations. As for me, I'm ole fashioned I guess, I just stick to the player hand book listing. Its not all that often I play a summoner so its relatively "newish" every time.

Whats the common on this board for summons...is there a legit critter list of alternative summons?

[FlaminCows]

Whats the common on this board for summons...is there a legit critter list of alternative summons?

Yes, there is. In addition, there is an article about it in Dragon Magazine #302. Dragon #354 adds modrons to the list of summonable monsters. The Core Beliefs articles in various issues of Dragon add special monsters to the list for clerics of the core deities.

[akkristor]

Dragon 347 also adds to the Druid summon list, explicitly adding all Paraelementals (From Manual of the Planes) to the Druid summon list at the same level as the primary elementals of the same size.  It also added stats for the Paraelemental Monoliths, and allows them to be summoned through Summon Elemental Monolith.

[X-Codes]

The summoner spell list is not long, and looking over it, it's quite evident to me that it's a Tier 3 list.  Yes, the Summoner gets some spells at lower SPELL levels than other classes, but the CHARACTER level at which these spells are obtained is the same or higher, which results in strictly inferior spellcasting due to fewer spells per day and lower save DC's.  What's more, the only Tier-1 power level spell on the Summoner's list is the Planar Binding chain.

I wouldn't compare the Summoner to the Dread Necromancer when it comes to class power, but rather with the Bard (a Tier 4 class).  They both have somewhat useful, albeit limited spell lists that progress at the same speed as the Wizard's in even more limited ways, with the difference being that the Summoner focuses on an inherently more useful school of magic than the Bard.  The result is a solid Tier 3 class.

[Emanresu]

when you say "the summoner" to what do you refer?

[X-Codes]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner

3.P = Pathfinder.

EDIT: Also, I dug into the list a little more and found Contact Other Plane, and I guess his Gate SLA technically counts for something, so that'd be 5, total, potentially campaign-breaking spells the Summoner has access to, but at the same time they're among the easiest ones for the DM to handle.  A far cry from the kind of stuff Tier 1 classes do with Shapechange, Time Stop, Commune, Scrying, etc.

[Endarire]

I thought the Pathfinder Bard was still tier 3.

[X-Codes]

I thought the Pathfinder Bard was still tier 3.

Yeah, I didn't see that Bard was boosted a tier in PF.

[Rubberblock]

Being honest, while I'm not as experienced with the system, I'd place the Summoner in Tier 2, probably towards the lower end of the pack.  It has a pretty good spell list (and is the reason for a lot of silly things, like Wands of Teleport, Potions of Dimension Door/Greater Invisibility), and the Eidolon is basically a built in Better fighter.   With it's summon monster SLA it can safely summon stuff while invisible and silent.
It's not able to prepare it's spells however so it can't figure out something for every situation, but...

If I had to tier it based on levels, earlier on it'd be towards the top of tier 2, but then go lower as the game went on.

[X-Codes]

Tiers aren't supposed to change in accordance with level progression because most classes starting out are actually more-or-less on par with one another.  A level 1 Fighter is just plain better than a basic wolf, the Druid's AC, and a level 1 Druid itself is just not a good melee fighter and is really depending on those 2-3 first-level spells to contribute.  The Tier List really kicks in around levels 7-10, when the Druid has a bear for an Animal Companion, turns into a Bear himself, and THEN throws around 2-3 4th-level spells per day with 4-5 spells of lower levels.  A comparably-leveled Fighter just can't compete with that.

Compared to that, what does the Summoner offer?  The Summoner's Eidolon never really catches the PF Fighter, the Summoner himself is never a melee combatant, and while the Summoner's spells do certainly become useful, they're never really powerful for the level at which you get them.  That's a solid Tier 3 class, not a Tier 2 class.  Remember, the difference between Tier 1 and 2 is versatility, not power, so by saying the Summoner is a Tier 2 class, you're saying he can, at some point, wield just as much power as a Wizard, which never happens.

[Rubberblock]

The Summoner himself is never a melee combatant, and while the Summoner's spells do certainly become useful, they're never really powerful for the level at which you get them. 

I will say, the Summoner DOES get a few key ones at fourth, namely Haste as a second level spell.   Obviously, regarding Tiers they don't change in level.   But for certain party compositions, it's good.  Getting the best spell in the game at third level is pretty good.

Also the Druid just spits out Turn Action Economy, at least early on. 

[TuggyNE]

A level 1 Fighter is just plain better than a basic wolf, the Druid's AC

Really. Permit me to express my polite disbelief in the form of a side-by-side comparison:
HD: 10+Con vs 2d8+4; a Fighter with 14 Con or less (quite common) is at a disadvantage, and only a Fighter with 18 Con or more has any advantage. Plus, some effects are HD-linked, and while most of those won't care about the difference between 1 and 2 HD, some do (e.g. sleep's cap may be forced to leave out a character because the wolf takes up double capacity). Also, some DMs may permit PC-associated creatures like AnCs to use PC rules for starting HP, in which case the wolf jumps up to about 16 HP. Advantage: wolf, by a small margin.
Initiative: +Dex vs +2; probably about equal most of the time, although the Fighter can spend their feats on Imp Init. Advantage: Fighter, by a small margin.
Speed: 20/30 vs 50. Advantage: wolf.
AC: 15+size+Dex vs 17 if almost all Fighter starting money goes to armor and one-third of Druid starting cash goes to studded leather barding; 14+size+Dex or less normally. Most Fighters will not have 16 Dex, which is necessary for parity with a realistic budget, and may well have only 12 or even 10; not many will use shields, given the serious drop in offensive potential. Advantage: wolf.
BAB/Grapple: +1/+4 vs +1/+2. Advantage: Fighter, assuming grappling is a thing that's important.
Attack: greatsword +4 (2d6+4) vs bite +3 (1d6+1). Advantage: Fighter, definitely.
SA/SQ/feats: One bonus feat and one level feat vs trip, track, low-light vision, and scent; a Fighter desiring to trip needs to spend both those feats and will still lack scent (and tracking, but that's fairly minor, and usually also low-light vision, but that's a race choice away). Alternatively, they can spend those feats on other things, but tripping is usually pretty high up there. Advantage: wolf, possibly.
Saves: Fort +5/Ref +2/Will +0 vs Fort +5/Ref +5/Will+1; assuming 14 Dex, 14 Con, and 10 Wis for the Fighter. Advantage: wolf.
Abilities: If the wolf can rearrange these scores with an array, rolled scores, or point buy most of these entries become more favorable for it.
Skills: Usually 4 skill points and a terrible list vs 5 skill points and a terrible list with a racial bonus to something irrelevant. Sometimes the Fighter has 13 Int for CE, in which case this goes up to 6 vs 5. Advantage: ???
Origin: PC vs 24-hour cost-free ritual. Advantage: wolf.

Obviously, there's a fair amount of variability here, but it's hard to argue that the Fighter is "just plain better"; it's hard to argue the Fighter is better at all.

[X-Codes]

HD: 10+Con vs 2d8+4; a Fighter with 14 Con or less (quite common) is at a disadvantage, and only a Fighter with 18 Con or more has any advantage.

Whoop-de-freaking-doo, one less hit point now.  7 more hit points next level.  This is a wash.

Initiative: +Dex vs +2; probably about equal most of the time, although the Fighter can spend their feats on Imp Init.

Fighter is better by a lot with Improved Init, otherwise on-par or slightly worse.  This is a wash.

Speed: 20/30 vs 50. Advantage: wolf.

Wolf is faster than a Fighter, but a Fighter in the right place does way more than a wolf.  As follows:

AC: 15+size+Dex vs 17 if almost all Fighter starting money goes to armor and one-third of Druid starting cash goes to studded leather barding; 14+size+Dex or less normally. Most Fighters will not have 16 Dex, which is necessary for parity with a realistic budget, and may well have only 12 or even 10; not many will use shields, given the serious drop in offensive potential. Advantage: wolf.

Plain wrong.  A Druid that buys studded leather barding for their companion is almost certainly going naked themselves.  Leather barding might work, but is only AC 16 total.  A Fighter gets that from Scale mail and a Heavy Shield, which actually only accounts for about a third of his starting gold.  It's likely he can splurge a little and get a Chain Shirt instead, or maybe even break out a Tower Shield for that one point during the campaign it'd actually be useful.  Also note that this is yet another number that is not terribly significant (unless you're using the Tower Shield, in which case shenanigans are afoot).

BAB/Grapple: +1/+4 vs +1/+2. Advantage: Fighter, assuming grappling is a thing that's important.

It isn't, I don't even know why you're bringing this up.

Attack: greatsword +4 (2d6+4) vs bite +3 (1d6+1). Advantage: Fighter, definitely.

Yes, the Fighter has a massive advantage here, and is even using one of the worst weapons in the game in getting that advantage.  The Fighter can instead use a Light Flail or Guisarme, still average twice as much damage as the wolf at a higher attack bonus, and have the option to trip for-realsies.

SA/SQ/feats: One bonus feat and one level feat vs trip, track, low-light vision, and scent; a Fighter desiring to trip needs to spend both those feats and will still lack scent (and tracking, but that's fairly minor, and usually also low-light vision, but that's a race choice away). Alternatively, they can spend those feats on other things, but tripping is usually pretty high up there. Advantage: wolf, possibly.

Yes, a Fighter wanting to trip will have to spend both feats.  A wolf wanting to trip is SOL because his modifier is a measley +1, only good for tripping the Goblins and Kobolds that it can't one-shot because it's damage output is bad.  Speaking of one-shotting things, have you ever seen a level 1 Fighter with 14 Dex, a Guisarme, and Combat Reflexes?  That's a 15' radius ring of death for CR 1 and lower critters.

Saves: Fort +5/Ref +2/Will +0 vs Fort +5/Ref +5/Will+1; assuming 14 Dex, 14 Con, and 10 Wis for the Fighter. Advantage: wolf.

For Reflex saves only.  The Wolf is slightly better at taking half damage from Burning Hands, yay.

Abilities: If the wolf can rearrange these scores with an array, rolled scores, or point buy most of these entries become more favorable for it.

The wolf has 13 Strength, 15 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, and generally terrible mental scores, and I have yet to see a DM anywhere allow his players to roll scores for their animal companions.

Skills: Usually 4 skill points and a terrible list vs 5 skill points and a terrible list with a racial bonus to something irrelevant. Sometimes the Fighter has 13 Int for CE, in which case this goes up to 6 vs 5. Advantage: ???

A Fighter with 13 Int has 12 skill points.  Personally, I don't see the point in stopping at 13 Int when 14 Int gives you another skill, and you can always expand your class skill list in various ways like the Apprentice feat.

Origin: PC vs 24-hour cost-free ritual. Advantage: wolf.

You get what you pay for.  Advantage: Fighter.

EDIT: Oh, also, this is a Fighter.  Imagine if I had said an even better low-tier fighty class like a Barbarian, Ranger, or Duskblade.  The point is, every class has their time to shine (except CW Samurai), and for mundane classes that time tends to be in the early levels before exponential-progression spellcasting out-paces their linear-progression attack bonuses and skill checks.

[Rubberblock]

I'm unsure if we're comparing Pathfinder animal companion here, but the Wolf Animal Companion has trip for free, and will still have a slot for a feat (which is probably used on Light Armor Training, mind you).   I'm not sure the 3.5 wolf compared to the PF wolf, but..

[X-Codes]

I'm unsure if we're comparing Pathfinder animal companion here, but the Wolf Animal Companion has trip for free, and will still have a slot for a feat (which is probably used on Light Armor Training, mind you).   I'm not sure the 3.5 wolf compared to the PF wolf, but..

CMD/CMB system in PF rather normalize the wolf instead of making it strictly better or worse.  It's not as bad against things it's bad against, and not as good against things it's good against.  The same can be said for the Fighter, but the Fighter at least has a better skill list and some actual class features past level 1, while the Druid AC has a much lower ceiling in PF.

IIRC, the Druid was the only Tier 1-2 class that was actually nerfed in the transition to Pathfinder.  It's still really strong, and probably still the unequivocal master of battlefield magic, but the AC isn't an outright replacement for the BSF anymore and the Druid's base physical ability scores actually matter when it comes to Wild Shape.