The Heighten Spell/Power feat is very clear though that it does not increase the actual level of the spell/power.
Heighten Spell
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.
Heighten Power
A heightened power has a higher psionic power level than normal (up to 9th level). Unlike other metapsionic feats, Heighten Power actually increases the effective level of the power that it modifies. All effects dependent on power level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a minor dead psionics zone or a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened power costs as many power points as a power of its effective level.
Not to mention that the only limitation on how high you an heighten a Spell/Power is the limit of how high of a spell/power you can actually use. If you could use heighten to use spells/powers of higher level than your class actually provides then you would be able to use early entry shenanigans into any casting prC with only 1 level in a base casting class regardless of what level spells the prC requires... Any attempt to do such a thing is a clear and cut case of willful misreading.
...
None of these give you access to higher level spells/powers than you can actually cast. They all clearly state "Effective Level" an effective level is not an actual level.
...
Effective Levels are not and never have been actual levels. prCs that grant an increase in the Effective Level of a class don't give you an actual level in that class. Instead you gain the ability to stack the level of that prC with that class to determine the progression of certain abilities defined by the prC. You only gained 1 actual level and it was in the prC. Effective Levels are simply a tool for altering features to create a balance without actually adding levels.
WotC spells it out pretty clearly that Effective Levels do not factor towards prerequisites for anything.
Thx for the extensive explanation of the difference between actual and effective level, and the usefulness of both, but what's the font? I searched for it into the rules compedium and i found nothing. beside this:
Emulate Class Feature:
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result –20. This skill doesn’t let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature
Seems to me that an
effective level/feature (not actual level) can be used to fulfill a prerequisite, but i understant that's not exactly our case, but similar.
In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.
Seems that it don't refers to maximum power level known, but maximum level
manifestable.
Powers Known
A psion begins play knowing three psion powers of your choice. Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of new powers.
... A psion can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level.
The number of times a psion can manifest powers in a day is limited only by his daily power points.
...Maximum Power Level Known: A psion begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As he attains higher levels, a psion may gain the ability to master more complex powers.
To learn or manifest a power, a psion must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power’s level.
The only restriction here are ML=Maximum PP Cost and high enough Intelligence, not class levels or maximum power level known.
If i via Heighten Power + Metapower i can lower the PP Cost of an higher level power [ if i'm a 1st level erudite (ML=1) i can manifest 1st level power by spending 1PP, and a Heighten 1st level power to 2nd level would cost 3pp -2pp for metapower= 1pp -> i can manifest it. (given i have at least 12 Intelligence)].
So @Lv1 (ML1) i can maniufest Heightened to 2nd Level 1st level power. By RAW it's a 1st level power, with an
effective 2nd level.
effective
Line breaks: ef¦fect|ive
[ATTRIBUTIVE] Existing in fact, though not formally acknowledged as such. - Assessed according to actual rather than face value
Seems that the effective level overvrite the actual level in the evaluation.
So, level 1-7 i can use Heighten Power + Metapower to manifest a power 1 level higher to the maximum power level i know (Lowering the PP cost by2, down to my ML), by level 8-16 i can Heighten Power + Metapower + Overchannel(+2) to manifest a power 2 Level higher to the maximum power level i know (Lowering the PP cost by2 and increasing by 2 my ML), as Heightened Powers have an effective level 1 or 2 times higher of my maximum power level known at the moment when are manifested. (that's what the erudite class feature checks to set the "level lower than the highest level power he can manifest")
Again, I understand the argument you are using, and have seen it numerous times. While I appreciate that you adhere to this interpretation (which is certainly reasonable, but not objectively correct), I repeat that there is no need to rehash the tired debate in this thread. As I have stated, I, my table, and many others have a different interpretation that, frankly, is no more or less correct than is yours.
Your interpretation is one that is clearly not accepted as the one and only possible truth. The debate has been done to death. Clearly, I (and, for that matter, OP), am (is) relying on a more permissive ruling. This interpretation is not objectively correct or incorrect. Neither is yours. There is no reason to push for your interpretation as being the sole correct one; as I have stated, this debate has been done to death with no clear consensus either way.
By RAW and Oxford Dictionary (until disproven by a direct rule) an hightened power's effective level counts as Power level that the character can manifest. thx tusdayscoming for the disclamer
If the table rules out interactions from feats for qualifications/requirements/
effective capabilities and counts only class levels features it's another kind of discussion.
- Pushing it further -
Using feats interaction to hack the maximum level of power manifestable becomes a
in medio rules applications when you can begin talking about powerstones manifesting.
Power Stones
A power stone stores a power (or collection of powers). A stored power can be used only once, “flushing” the stone. Using a power stone is basically like manifesting a power (basically is not enough).
Activation
To activate a power stone, a manifester must mentally address it, as described below. Once the power is known, the power stone is treated as a power completion item, except as noted below. Using a stone’s stored power after addressing the stone requires holding the stone and willing the power’s manifestation, as if manifesting a power normally (a standard action). Activating a power stone is subject to disruption just as manifesting a power normally would be.
Additionally, the user must meet the following requirements.
The user must have the power on his or her class list. (ok)
The user must have the requisite key ability score. (ok)
If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check. If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone’s manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user’s level), against a DC equal to the power stone’s manifester level +1, to manifest the power successfully. Here we are: you manifest a power (from a power stone)
So with Psionic Mastery Feat (taking 10 to manifester level checks) and with a good (and proper) repertorie of power stones you will be "able to" or you "can" (with the 100% of the probability) manifest a really higher power level then the one granted by your class level. example: you can manifest at ML1 (1st Level Power Maximum) 5th level powers trough power stones. Obviusly WBL comes in allowing only a certain level of Power stones at each level: however by 2nd character level (900gp WbL) you can afford a 150gp 2nd Level Power stone and thus still qualify for learning 1st level discipline powers.
Utilizing disposable items for "qualifiing" seems a lot cheesier then using 2 feats, but still feasible by wording.
By Lv2/4/6 with Overchannel+1 and Lv8 with Overchannel+2 you can manifest a higher level power (higher than that you can cast from class features) from a power stones, triking the maximum power level known limitation. (See: Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known from srd)
@Lv8 if you want manifest lv5 powers you need to pass a DC 15+5(Power Level) Psicraft check.
However in this case i would claim
Like most crap you've read on the forums, there is little rules supporting the concept of it.
[cut]
So no, it's not exactly a clear "win" for this combo there. In fact, you know how the general opinion of the forums says no to things like "UMD a Wand, I can cast 3rd level spells!" as you don't have a real ability to cast 3rd level spells? Or even prerequisites using the term "caster level" and such mean levels in a class and not that easily modified total (per dmg)? It's of no surprise that the FAQ contains the following:
If a 1st-level character takes the Precocious Apprentice feat, can he cast 2nd-level spells for the purposes of qualifying for a prestige class or meeting the prerequisites of a feat?
In the Sage’s opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells.
Which is the same thing, but official rules interpretation that can be quoted as saying PA is a shitty feat and people really need to stop trying to use it in stupid ways.
P.S. PA doesn't meet Fiery Burst's Prerequisite under intent or by the clause of PA either.
those method grant indeed a chance (= ability dependant from external sources, aka items) of casting/manifesting a certain level of powers. However it could be too much tricky using a non permanent ability to qualify for something.
However note that we are looking for
the highest level power he can manifest. instead of
Must be able to cast(manifest) X-level arcane spells (psionic powers). that many prcs rely on.
Only the level of the power manifested is checked, not the (inherent) ability to cast it.
[cut]
No, I'm sorry but if your viewpoint is that you can use a Heightened Spell/Power to gain early access to prCs and Feats with "Ability to use X Level Spell/Power" then there is a fundamental flaw that actually makes the viewpoint completely wrong. That viewpoint is the exact same as saying that a 1st level character can cast 9th level spells.
Because Heighten Spell is limited only by the highest level spell you can cast then if you are claiming that you are granted the ability to cast X level spells simply by heightening a lower level known spell to that level and having a high enough attribute score to cast that level spell, then you are also claiming that a 1st level spellcaster can cast 9th level spells. There are a few Metamagic feats that you could take at 1st level, and heighten spell only requires you to know any other metamagic feat. There are various ways to get multiple 1st level feats, so it's entirely possible to have Heighten Spell at level 1. Since your only limited by your ability to cast spells of higher levels then you could by your logic heighten a 1st level spell all the way to 9th level and claim you have the ability to cast 9th level spells thus meeting the requirement for any spell level based feat & prC at level 1.
You can't honestly be telling me that you agree with that. Any DM would have to be out of their mind to allow a 1st level spellcaster to cast 9th level spells simply because they have a high attribute score and heighten spell feat. Before the argument of "you'd only be able to cast 1st level spells as 9th level though", this logic would permit a 1st level character to use Extra Spell feat to add any 9th level spell they want to their known spells so long as they can find a way to boost their CL to 3 at 1st level. Plus... "you'd only be able to cast 1st level spells as 9th level" is the exact effect of a heightened spell. You are casting X level spell as a Y level spell, the spell itself is still X level for everything but calculations (Level dependent variables & DC).
I honestly don't see how anyone can accept heightened spells/powers of any kind as granting the ability to cast higher level spells/powers than your level permits.
A wizard still needs a 9th level spell slot to heighten a 1st level spell to 9th level and prepare/cast it, so Heighten is usesless in this case (without earth spell to have +1 Heightne free). 1st level characters with extra slot chains to grab spel slots until 9th are a known trick. ex: Illumian Wiz1+ Improved sigil Krau (cast as 2nd Level) + Extra slot (Gain a 2nd Level Slot) +Apply Improved Sigil Krau (+1 Spell Level)+ Extra slot (Gain a 3nd Level Slot) +Apply Improved Sigil Krau (+1 Spell Level)+ Extra slot (Gain a 4nd Level Slot) +Apply Improved Sigil Krau (+1 Spell Level)+ Extra slot (Gain a 5nd Level Slot) etc till 9th. Flaws: he dosen't know any 2to9 spells to cast (but he can copy them on the spellbook) and for a sorceror is usesless (no spell knonw gained)
