Infinite Druids, Gold, Items, and Cohorts

[Defensor Pacis]

Step 1: Take 5 levels in Druid. Two of the feats must be Alertness and Endurance to qualify for MoMF.
Step 2: PrC into Master of Many Forms 8.
Step 3: Purchase, find, or create a Command Ring of Cure Light Wounds.
Step 4: Take the Leadership feat, give your cohort the Ring.
Step 5: Equip your cohort with a stone sword.
Step 6: Hold everything you can carry, possibly more.
Step 7: Wild Shape into a Black Pudding. You gain the Splitting (Ex) ability.
Step 8: Command your cohort to strike you with their stone sword.
Step 9: You split in two, each half taking 1/2 your HP as damage
Step 10: Command your follower to heal both of you.
Step 11: Repeat step 8-10 until you have an arbitrarily high number of copies of yourself.
Step 12: Each copy of yourself has the Cohort feat. Choose cohorts which would be useful.
Step 13: Use your arbitrarily high amount of gold to buy the best magical equipment you can find.
Step 14: Do as you will. You don't have infinite power, but you do have infinite resources.
While this is no where near as ridiculous as Pun-Pun, it's still more than any sane DM would allow.

[Defensor Pacis]

Druid
Found in: Players Handbook, Page 33
"Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet."

Master of Many Forms
Found in: Complete Adventurer, Page 58
"Extraordinary Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a master of many forms gains the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes with wild shape."

Black Pudding
Found in: Monster Manual 3.5, Page 201
"Split (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points. "

[ketaro]

Well, just on a cursory glance, the only thing I can say right now about this not working is the

When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied

part.

While you get two identical puddings when you split, one of you is still the original and the one that actually Wildshaped originally.
The other pudding never wildshaped into a pudding and thus there aren't any worn objects that previously melded into its self to reappear when it goes into its true form.

It's a matter of grammar
Just cause you have an identical twin doesn't mean you are also the twin and the twin is also you.

But other than that, yeah, I see infinite Druids with infinite Cohorts. I just don't see infinite wealth/items.

[Defensor Pacis]

While you get two identical puddings when you split, one of you is still the original and the one that actually Wildshaped originally.
The other pudding never wildshaped into a pudding and thus there aren't any worn objects that previously melded into its self to reappear when it goes into its true form.

It's a matter of grammar
Just cause you have an identical twin doesn't mean you are also the twin and the twin is also you.

But other than that, yeah, I see infinite Druids with infinite Cohorts. I just don't see infinite wealth/items.

"Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings." They are both the original. They are both considered to be the one that Wild Shaped into the Pudding, because they are identical. If you're arguing that one is a copy, which it doesn't state, then we're just getting into some sort of metaphysical debate, and that is not exactly relevant.

And, just for the sake of humoring you, even in a situation where the gear isn't copied, I believe that we can safely assume that a near endless army of a single individual would qualify for the Great Renown portion of Leadership, and a base of operations could be build very quickly. Assuming you can get a Charisma score of 20(fairly easy for point buy, since you don't need to fight anyway), that would be a +7 bonus for both followers and cohorts. With my leadership score of 20, I could get 1 14th level cohort, 50 1st level followers, 5 2nd level followers, 3 3rd level followers, 2 4th level followers, and 1 5th level follower, per each copy. Just recruit people with nothing but profession and craft, and become a trade king. In short time, you could own an entire kingdom.   

[ketaro]

That doesn't really...

Saying they are both the original when you split into two identical puddings, it easily can be taken as simply another you, which still being you and not some one else, would re-combine with you when you try to return to your true form. Like being a swarm without the swarm type. Having more than 1 body while still being classified as a singular creature.

Discussing it brought up a new way this wouldn't work, at least in purely the regards to having infinite items/infinite copies of your own items 

But yes, having a bunch of crafters as followers is the work-around to this argument that fills the hole I poked in it 
Unless of course all the puddings are still being classified as the original druid and thus all re-assimilate into one druid when you shift back to your true form.


Another means is in the Black Pudding's Split ability too. It says each new pudding has 1/2 the hit points of the original's current hit points, and that easily can be inferred (and likely even intended by the writers) that the new values for each pudding are the Max HPs for the new puddings. (So 100 Current HP and the pudding splits, both new puddings Max HPs being equal to 1/2 whatever the previous pudding's HP was at).

[Chemus]

The Protean Scourge's Split(su) ability only requires that a scourge be damaged, I like nonlethal damage here, as it never actually lowers HP. It also specifically states that each scourge has the same hit points as the original had before splitting.

...Each version has the protean scourge’s current hit point total (they do not split remaining hit points), and both versions of the protean scourge must be slain to kill the creature...

This is better than the black pudding, though the scourges must share a spell pool, and it's a supernatural rather than extraordinary ability, thus harder to get. Assume supernatural ability is the only way I know of.

However, I believe that 'current hit points' (the actual phrase used in the black pudding's split ability) is a bit nebulous. RAI is not even clear to my eye. 'Current hit point total' also seems less than exact; is your hp total (Max HP - damage) or the result of that calculation. If the former, then Defensor Pacis's contention is the correct one. If, instead, it's the second then ketaro's position is correct.

[ketaro]

Gotta really hate ambiguity, eh?

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Identical twins are not the same person, even if they gained the split ability before birth.  Also, just because your twin is identical, you don't automatically get to control your twin.
Thrallherd is a much more straightforward way to do this.

[Defensor Pacis]

Identical twins are not the same person, even if they gained the split ability before birth.  Also, just because your twin is identical, you don't automatically get to control your twin.
Thrallherd is a much more straightforward way to do this.

This is more of an opinion debate, than an actual mechanics debate now. At least in my opinion.
I'm sure there are other ways to achieve this, I just wanted to post what I had figured out. In my opinion, by the RAW, I would split into two identical version of myself, the same in literally every way. It's impossible to determine which is the original player character, because even after a single split, there are now two of me. They have the same memories, ideals, and desires. At the very least, and I do only control one of me, every other version would be like minded in every way. The same dreams, wants, dislikes, experience, the whole shebang.
But, as I said, this is more opinion than actual mechanics. It's really more of a philosophical debate of "If you split into two versions of yourself, which is the original?" That question isn't really answerable in any easy way. Personally, I count them both as the original. We are who we've been.

[Endarire]

Pacis, that is cool and new!

Would shapechange also do the same trick at potentially a higher level?

[TML]

On a similar note, Mistling Fey template has a 1/day 'conjure living spell (sp)'. 

Conjure Living Spell (Sp)Once per day, a mistling can transform any spell or spell-like ability it can cast into a living spell (ECS293). This requires a full-round action, and it counts as one daily use or casting of the spell or spell-like ability. The resultant living spell lasts for a number of hours equal to the mistling’s Hit Dice or until destroyed, and follows the mental orders of its creator

Take magic in the blood to make it 3/day.  Then, conjure a conjure living spell living spell.  Conjure living spell living spells' spell effect conjures living spells.

The acquisition of an at-will SLA is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Chemus]

That seems awfully recursive, Linguist. Is there any way that the conjure living spell living spell can conjure anything but another conjure living spell living spell? I mean, it has no other abilities or spells from the template. Additionally, living spells have no SLA's to power CLS with, merely an (ex) and a (su) ability to inflict their effects on creatures they hit or engulf. That's a lot of flash and ooze, signifying nothing.

[SorO_Lost]

An this kids is why we don't butcher English daily.

You chop a pudding in half why that must mean the nonexistent items were duplicated and entire species were repopulated right? Just like fusion is hot, cold fusion must not be, but since fission is the opposite of fusion then cold fission is hot and therefor crushed ice is a viable heat source.

Also Living Spell only applies to Spells. Spell-Like Abilities are not actually Spells.

[TML]

Also Living Spell only applies to Spells. Spell-Like Abilities are not actually Spells.

    Conjure Living Spell (Sp)Once per day, a mistling can transform any spell or spell-like ability it can cast into a living spell

Explicitly says you can use SLAs.

That seems awfully recursive, Linguist. Is there any way that the conjure living spell living spell can conjure anything but another conjure living spell living spell? I mean, it has no other abilities or spells from the template. Additionally, living spells have no SLA's to power CLS with, merely an (ex) and a (su) ability to inflict their effects on creatures they hit or engulf. That's a lot of flash and ooze, signifying nothing.

It really isn't that difficult to give a creature an at-will SLA if you work at it.  There are several magic items that do it, for instance, even if you don't get into fusing it with a paladin or something

But the point isn't so much effectiveness as silliness.

[SorO_Lost]

Thas cool bro. Did you know you can cast Dominate Monster on a Lich and it does absolutely nothing at all despite being a successfully completed action? Speaking of dude, only a creature is affected with the normal effect of the Spell and it doesn't even imply the spell is recast on each strike how is that working for you? Oh and since you're all like "using Conjure Living Spell 2/day!" it'd be pretty frigging sweet for you to mention this official means to increasing your none-Racial SLAs per day so I can abuse the heck out of it in meaningful ways.

I mean, when you get down to it a Misting Elan takes this "trick" to NI levels legally, and if you shove him in the Dal Quar he does it ten times faster. Boring snoozefest.

[Chemus]

I mean that a Conjure Living Spell living spell only has Ex or Su abilities, and can't actually make another CLS living spell. This is because while it activates the effect of CLS on a hit or an engulf, the ability, once it is part of the living spell, is not a spell or sla, and thus is not available as a target for the effect. Adding an SLA or spell would indeed allow conjuration of living spells of those spells or SLAs, but only on a hit or engulf. What's the duration on the mistling's CLS ability? I found mistling once, but can't find it again.

[TML]

Oh and since you're all like "using Conjure Living Spell 2/day!" it'd be pretty frigging sweet for you to mention this official means to increasing your none-Racial SLAs per day so I can abuse the heck out of it in meaningful ways.

Dude, it's a racial SLA.  Just like how the skill bonuses you get from being a lich are racial skill bonuses.

Unless you're saying that templates don't count as being your race, which I don't think you are - that would be a pretty ludicrous, since you'd have to ignore a shitload of RAW to do so.  Just off the top of my head, Races of the Dragon explicitly lists templated creatures as races: "Races presented in this book that have the dragonblood subtype include dragonborn, spellscale, kobold, and draconic creatures."  Or, for that matter, the draconic racial class, which says "Upon taking all three levels, you have the half-dragon template, and your level adjustment and ECL are 3 higher than normal for your original race". 

90% of my books are like half a continent away (and dndtools is gone), but I think RotD is convincing enough on its own.  It's also got a list of races that includes 'half-dragon', too.

But hey if you have any raw that says 'templates aren't races', I'd be glad to see it.  I've been away from charop for a while so I'm a bit rusty.

I mean that a Conjure Living Spell living spell only has Ex or Su abilities, and can't actually make another CLS living spell. This is because while it activates the effect of CLS on a hit or an engulf, the ability, once it is part of the living spell, is not a spell or sla, and thus is not available as a target for the effect. Adding an SLA or spell would indeed allow conjuration of living spells of those spells or SLAs, but only on a hit or engulf. What's the duration on the mistling's CLS ability? I found mistling once, but can't find it again.

Lasts for one hour per hit die (quoted it in my post). 

So you hand your ooze one of the many magic items that have an at-will spell-like ability, then have it slam to create another ooze, using the at-will SLA to fuel.  Or fuse it with a paladin and create a bunch of living detect evils or something.

I suppose you could make an argument that the living spell would, instead of conjuring an ooze from the living spell's power upon hitting the target, drain a use from the target's SLAs and turn THAT into another living spell.  Which would just require an intelligent item (or paladin) to be the subject of the ooze's frustration. 

Even more arguably, you might say that the living spell has to slam attack an actual spell in order to apply the template... which is weird, but I think still doable.

[SorO_Lost]

Oh and since you're all like "using Conjure Living Spell 2/day!" it'd be pretty frigging sweet for you to mention this official means to increasing your none-Racial SLAs per day so I can abuse the heck out of it in meaningful ways.

Dude, it's a racial SLA.  Just like how the skill bonuses you get from being a lich are racial skill bonuses.

Unless you're saying that templates don't count as being your race, which I don't think you are - that would be a pretty ludicrous, since you'd have to ignore a shitload of RAW to do so.  Just off the top of my head, Races of the Dragon explicitly lists templated creatures as races: "Races presented in this book that have the dragonblood subtype include dragonborn, spellscale, kobold, and draconic creatures."  Or, for that matter, the draconic racial class, which says "Upon taking all three levels, you have the half-dragon template, and your level adjustment and ECL are 3 higher than normal for your original race". 

90% of my books are like half a continent away (and dndtools is gone), but I think RotD is convincing enough on its own.  It's also got a list of races that includes 'half-dragon', too.

But hey if you have any raw that says 'templates aren't races', I'd be glad to see it.  I've been away from charop for a while so I'm a bit rusty.

Four paragraphs to say: I don't know how to get Conjure Living Spell to twice a day, which is sad because a Mistling needs to expend a use of the SLA s/he uses with Conjure Living Spell in order to use it.

Also you know there is a difference between Inherited (half-dragon) and Acquired (mistling) right? Well, probably not since your reference doesn't even support your claim do begin with but while Savage Species refers to Inherited Templates as Races it doesn't say that about Acquired Templates. Page 5 even says you can transform a Creature into a new Race or Creature Type so as a matter of fact: not all transformations alter your Race.

Even more arguably, you might say that the living spell has to slam attack an actual spell in order to apply the template... which is weird, but I think still doable.

Gee, I wonder if that already came up?

Speaking of dude, only a creature is affected with the normal effect of the Spell and it doesn't even imply the spell is recast on each strike how is that working for you?

If you don't understand those I can talk down to you. Or you know, you can just read Living Spell and save me the headache over the first four reasons why you're wrong. The limited SLA use is only the 5th.

And the Elan is kind of the 6th, if there is a way to stack SLAs for more uses (such as manipulate form) the fact there is a legitimate way to produce thousands of Living Spells per day (see ice assassin chain and dal quor) for all of eternity why even waste time and effort claiming some non-functional way works in sillyland?

I found mistling once, but can't find it again.

Eberron's Forge at War, pg153.

[TML]

Also you know there is a difference between Inherited (half-dragon) and Acquired (mistling) right? Well, probably not since your reference doesn't even support your claim do begin with but while Savage Species refers to Inherited Templates as Races it doesn't say that about Acquired Templates

Hi, welcome.

Give me a direct text reference from 3.5, not this outdated 3e crap.  An exact quote, if you please, stating that acquired templates aren't racial, and inherited templates are.  If it's something so obvious, please, enlighten me as to where it's stated.

And yes, Savage species is 3e.  Wizards lists it as such.



Compare with how they list the fully 3.5 BOED


None of this 'holier than thou' beating around the bush bullshit.  If you are unable to give me a citation in your next post, I accept your concession on this point. 

[ketaro]

Any 3.0 material that didn't get a 3.5 version is effectively 3.5 (compatible) material.

Now who's acting "holier than thou", eh?