Lokiyn/SorO_Lost fun finds debate

[Lokiyn]

SorO_Lost makes the claim that you cannot lower the [Difficulty Class] of an item, because you cannot lower the [caster level] below that necessary to cast the [spell slot].

Ahh, so you haven't been reading my posts at all before responding, well that explains a lot.

note the quote below, this is, i believe the third or fourth time i have directly called this out.

Couldn't you combine this with awaken, or shadowcraft tricks, to deliberately lower the DC of certain items?

Not really.

First Spells have a minimum CL.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

And if those conditions cannot be met.

If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

Secondary, the CL entry isn't a suggestion that you can passively ignore. It's a requirement.

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

And here is the MiC's updated text on the subject of multiple crafters.

All items have prerequisites in their descriptions.These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time they take the form of feats and spells that the item's creator must know, although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed. It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites. (In all places where this text refers to the "creator" of a magic item, it includes all characters supplying at least one prerequisite [or the item's creation.) The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.

You're still technically allowed to the CL of anyone in the party, but the wording more strongly reflects meeting the requirements opposed to the pick and choose method the first iteration might seem to suggest to you. So calling back to the other rules, the minimum CL must be met by your choice or you can't make the item.

And @Link, fixed it.

Your move

Ok the let me make it even simpler

...snip...

So please

Explain why lowering the DC is impossible because caster level limits
Explain why explicitly lowering a spell by 1 level then using that to craft cheaper items is impossible

Although one of the more interesting finds was that sorcerers are more expensive item crafters than wizards due to page 89 of the phb where

The caster level must be high enough that the spellcaster creating the item can cast the spell at that level

Which since sorceres gain access to spells 1 level slower than wizards, means that their items would cost a small but measureably larger amount than wizards.

Look there are combos that i don't necessarily like, but i don't try and pretend the rules don't allow it because i don't like it. The rules are pretty black and white here.

If you cast a sanctum spell (outside), it drops the spell level by 1
You must cast the spell to place it in a spell storing ring.
You may use spells from a magic item to create an item.
You use the now reduced level spell to create the item.

*edit*
Really the only thing not explicitly allowed would be whether or not modifications to the spell from things other than metamagic feats are stored in the spell storing rings, although it is implicit it isn't specifically called out.

Also lets point out that the epic handbook was updated to 3.5
Also i'd need to dig out the actual DMG 3.0 since as you can't bitch about the srd being incomplete and the use it to justify a non existent point

again, your move. You have yet to show that a valid point that isn't your personal opinion of what things should be rather than the way things actually are

It shows a vast lack of integrity to claim that A does not equal B by claiming that C does not equal D and try and pretend that you are actually addressing anything.

Ergo
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

The Facts are

Sanctum spells, when used in combination with spell storing items, allow one to lower the the spell level of an item, thus allowing both cheaper item creation and allowing a small expansion to the spells available to be placed into potions/wands/scrolls [explicit]

Enhance item can be used to increase the DC of item creation, and if used in combination with cooperative crafting can be used to lower the DC of items created with the feat as well (for items that use the default DC calculation formula) [explicit]

Granted that class ability modifications kick in when the spell is cast, and that a spell storing item captures the spell after it is cast, the Implicit conclusion of the two is that one could combine the two, with the implicit capture of class ability modified spells, Have access to an item that can be used to craft reduced DC items with the Shadowcraft Gnome's class ability of enhanced reality, which would normally not have a way to be embedded into items.

[Kethrian]

Lokiyn, you seem to be missing a few crucial things.

First, the magic item creation rules do not actually mention allowing you to use metamagic modified spells in an item's creation.  Any attempts to do so place your work in homebrew territory.  Also, the standard rule for homebrewing items with spells modified by metamagic is that the level of the spell slot is what would be used to calculate an item's cost, not its effective level.  The price for a wand of Empowered Burning Hands would use 3rd for the spell level, and minimum 5 for the CL (if a wizard makes it, 6 for a sorc, etc).  It would still have an effective spell level of 1st things such as dispelling or protecting against it, or save DC.

Second, Sanctum Spell does not change the ACTUAL level of the spell, only its EFFECTIVE level.  This means that while it will lower the item's save DC while used outside your sanctum, or raise it when within that area, it does not change the spell slot required, and therefore will not change the item's creation cost.  Remember, item creation cost is not an effect of the spell, and therefore is not subject to a spell's effective level.

Third, whoever supplies the spell(s) to be used in the item creation must be able to CAST said spell(s), meaning they must still meet the minimum ability score required to cast them.  If an item is used, it automatically uses the minimum required ability score (10+spell level).  This is reinforced by the concept that a 1st level warmage cannot contribute his Fireball to the creation of an item, because he is too low in level to cast it, even though he knows all spells on his list.  Or if his charisma is below 13, for that matter.

[linklord231]

Not gonna touch the rest of this argument, but you can absolutely make items of spells enhanced by metamagic. 

Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. For example, a caster could heighten a spell’s level to increase its effectiveness, or quicken a spell to allow it to be used as a free action, placing it within an item at the higher metamagic level.

[Kethrian]

Fair enough, missed that when I went looking.  Rest of my points still apply, though.

Edit: I did just think of a way you could lower the save DC of an item.  It requires being made by a class whose DC setting score is different than their casting score, like a spirit shaman.  Their created items would always have a -5 score modifier to the save DC, because the item always uses the lowest score required.  Using a lv 4 spell?  The item will have an effective 14 Charisma, but a 1 (or 0) Wisdom.

[faeryn]

Regardless of how you go about "lowering the spell level" the minimum CL to cast the spell will not change. If a spell was 3rd level it will require CL 5 (or CL 6 if Sorcerer) minimum to cast even if you were to lower the spell level to 2nd. Within the existing rules there are no ways to actually reduce spell levels though, only effective spell levels, and the same issue still applies. You can lower the effective spell level as much as you want, but the spell's minimum CL won't ever change.

[SorO_Lost]

I'd say you're on track Faeryn. Like a Sanctum Fireball is still a 3rd level Spell, depending on where it's cast the effective level may change for the purposes of calculations, but it's still a +0 Metamagic'ed 3rd level Spell. A Wizard still needs a CL of 5 and 15 Intelligence to learn, prepare, or cast the Spell. And just because you crafted an item of it, doesn't mean you should assume it should be treated any different.

Through that's only part of Lokiyn's misunderstanding.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The rules are grey as to when one uses the effective level and when one uses the (unmodified) level.

Suffice to say negative metamagic causes very bad things and should be banned. I was expecting to see Soro going nuts, but he's been very rational recently.

So Loki can you provide a rules quote saying that one can do this setup, ie that one can lower DCs beyond what they should be? Otherwise we have a "the rules don't say that I can't" problem.

[SorO_Lost]

Suffice to say negative metamagic causes very bad things and should be banned. I was expecting to see Soro going nuts, but he's been very rational recently.

I'm always rational.

Polite is another story...