[3.5, TO] About Psions being more broken than Wizards

[Maelphaxerazz]

I am waiting for someone to explain to me how the Psion can manifest a costless Ice Assassin as a standard action.

No-one suggested it did. You misread SorO's statement. He wasn't suggesting that the infinite PP trick for psions uses Ice Assassin. He was using Ice Assassin as an example of supposed "infinite spells" tricks for Wizards, which are actually non-infinite. The infinite PP tricks for psions do not use Ice Assassin at all.

Nobody stated or implied that psions can use Ice Assassin infinitely without XP costs.

[SorO_Lost]

The game doesn't stop pre-epic, but a none-epic Psion can learn cross-powers from an epic Psion using Psychic Chirurgery or even using Fusion with anyone that already knows them. There might be, and probably is, other ways to do it but eh.

Coincidentally, thanks to the infinite PP/Turn loop a Psion can also use Schism to craft any item or use any Spell/Power with a long Casting Time. Either by delegating Temporal Acceleration to the Schism or by letting the Schism handle the casting while the main body continually Manifests the desired PP loop and keeps up the TA. As long as your ML is high enough for the extra Actions, you can plug all kinds of things into it.

[zook1shoe]

Sorcerers and Wizards get access to a Dragonlance spell that allows time travel backwards and forward... they can use this to kill the psion before he got his power... or allows a wizard to know what spells he needs to tell his past self to prepare.

Or contingent time travle when youre about to be killed might be an option too

(click to show/hide)

   Time Reaver [Legends of the Twins, Tower of High Sorcery]
Transmutation
Level: Anagakok 9, Beholder Mage 9, Deathwalker 9, Fleshcrafter 9, Sha’ir 9, Sorcerer/Wizard 9, Soul Reaper 9, Sublime Chord 9
Components: V, S, M, F, XP
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 levels)
Effect: One way portal through time and space
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
   Known only to a few—officially only the Masters of the Towers of High Sorcery know this spell—timereaver is one of the most potentially powerful and dangerous spells known on Ansalon. This spell creates a portal through time and space and allows up to 1 individual per 4 caster levels to travel through the portal to another period of time.
   Originally intended to allow wizards to research the past or the future, the spell allows individuals to travel backward or forward along the River of Time. The travelers can travel up to 20 years per level of the caster backward in time, or 1 year per level of the caster forward (as the future is far more difficult to navigate. The spell pierces the barriers between both time and space. It requires incredible concentration from the spellcaster in order to ensure that the travelers end up at both the right time and in the right place (requiring a Spellcraft check at DC 15 +1 for every decade traveled backward and a Spellcraft check at DC 15 +1 for every year traveled forward). If the Spellcraft check is failed: 1) the travelers end up either in the right time but wrong place—25 miles away per point the Spellcraft check failed, in a random direction (50% chance), or 2) in the right place but the wrong time—up to 5 years per point the Spellcraft check failed, either forward or back (50% chance). Either failure may place the travelers in a precarious position, particularly as the spell is a one-way trip (unless the travelers are provided with a means of returning, such as the device of time journeying or another rare and powerful artifact).
   At the beginning of time, the High God dictated that alterations to the River of Time were forbidden, thus those using the timereaver spell cannot affect either the past or the future, no matter how hard they try (as a pebble dropped in the river cannot alter the river’s path). However, if one of the Chaos races (any race altered by the effects of the Graygem, such as kender, dwarves, minotaurs, or sea elves) travels through time, the touch of Chaos within them allows for the possibility of time alteration—a potentially disastrous consequence. This spell was primarily used by Masters of the Tower to send individuals through time to research aspects of the past or the future, secure in the knowledge the travelers could do nothing to affect the River of Time. Such expeditions were rarely undertaken, however, as artifacts like the device of time journeying (which originally allowed only a single individual to return through time) are exceedingly rare and difficult to produce.
   Material Component: A magical circle, created by a mixture of rare ingredients worth at least 10,000 stl + 1000 stl per decade traveled backward in time, or per year forward in time.
   Arcane Focus: A major artifact, which is temporarily inert for 1 hour per decade traveled backward in time, or per year traveled forward in time.
   XP Cost: 1000 XP + 500 XP per decade traveled backward in time, or per year forward in time.

[Kaelik]

My only argument was that the Wizard is superior to the Psion because he can create a costless copy of him as a standard action. That is, after casting Time Stop as an immediate action (Celerity). I'm not sure that this argument has ever been countered, but if it has I apologize for the spam.

It has been countered by pointing out the Erudite, which is a variant Psion and therefore counts. The Spell-to-Power variant Erudite can learn spells as powers, which means psions (of a sort) can learn Ice Assassin, Time Stop and Celerity just fine.

I'd further add that if one wishes to use the spells as standard psions, one can learn the power in various ways from an erudite (for example, using Psychic Chirurgery). Therefore particular spells available to wizards cannot be used to argue that wizards are more broken than psions, because any spell the wizard can cast the psion can learn too, if necessary.

Oh but from the beginning I was assuming that the Psion already knows every single spell in the game.

I am waiting for someone to explain to me how the Psion can manifest a costless Ice Assassin as a standard action. Then, once this has been established, I'd be curious to know how a non-Epic Psion could actually manage to learn Ice Assassin (or any 9th-level spell) in the first place, but that's secondary.

Anyone can manifest a costless Ice Assassin as standard action once they reach level 5:

Step 1) Buy Candle of Invocation.
Step 2) Call Efferti/Noble Djinn.
Step 3) Wish for Belt of Magnificence +999999999.
Step 4) Wish for Staff of Wish with Googleplex XP invested in each wish.
Step 5) Wish for Staff of Time Stop (Or Maximized Time Stop).
Step 6) Put on Belt.
Step 7) Use Staff of Time Stop.
Step 8) Wish for Rod of Maximize (Can you use these with staves? I don't know, it doesn't really matter, it still takes you effectively zero time to anyone else to do anything).
Step 9) Depending on what you rolled on your 1d4, spend rounds Wishing for staves of Wish with each charge of your Wish staff.
Step 10) Spend your last Time stop Round Readying an action to TimeStop (Maximized is possible).
Step 11) Once in Time Stop again, spend all your rounds continuing to wish for more staves of wish.
Repeat 10-11 about 30000000 times until you have more staves of wish than anyone could ever care about. Occasionally stop to Wish up more staves of Time Stop before the current one runs out.
Step Whatever) Start using staves of wish to wish up staves of whatever other spell you want, such as more Time Stops, and Ice Assassin staves, and whatever else.
Step Ice Assassin) Use Staves of Ice Assassin to make a whole bunch of Ice Assassins under your command.
Step What Even) Now the Time Stop chain has to stop, so that you can order all your Ice Assassins to do whatever you want them to do, and then give them all staves of Wish.
Step Hey What About This) You should probably wish up a staff or right of MindRape, and use that to make all the Ice Assassins not want to kill you, so you don't have to worry about them distorting your orders or whatever to kill you.

EDIT: Actually, that probably doesn't allow you to Ice Assassin, since casting time is 8 hours and I think items carry over the casting time (although I'm sure there is some way around that) so I guess you have to wish yourself to a timeless plane to cast all your Ice Assassins (and then Mindrape them, and then give them all staves of Wish).

Or you could just wish up a Psionic item of Schism, if that allows you to do it a Psion it would all you to do it as a Commoner with items.

[SorO_Lost]

Sorcerers and Wizards get access to a Dragonlance spell that allows time travel backwards and forward... they can use this to kill the psion before he got his power... or allows a wizard to know what spells he needs to tell his past self to prepare.

You should try to finish reading that book sometime. According to it mortals cannot change the past, only view it to learn about it. Kenders are the only beings capable of modifying the timeline outside of Deitys but neither one has any real control over things. But interestingly the text technically expressly negates a Wizard from ever doing it.

It is also important to remember that wizards cannot sense the passage of time any more than other mortals can — they can use spells to detect it, but even with those specific incantations they muddle along in the pull of the River, just like anyone else. Nor can any mage, no matter how powerful, bend the River to his will. Even the gods are powerless to stop the River completely, or to reverse its flow — they can wade through it without being trapped in its current, but they cannot change its course.

Hence that whole part about the high god preventing anything less than a Chaos-Touched race from being able to do anything as found in the very Spell you quoted. However you have no control over how that chaos factor is applied, aiming it to stop Pun-Pun (or a psion) is out of the caster's hands. He'd need enough retries to ensure that outcome could happen but that can also result in an outcome that unborns the caster.

You would have been better off bring up the DM-only FR-Only time travel Spell form the online articles than to try anything from the static timeline Dragonlance campaign.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Also isnt everything outside of the Base Campaign Setting book of Dragonlance 3rd party anyways?

[Pippin]

Coincidentally, thanks to the infinite PP/Turn loop a Psion can also use Schism to craft any item or use any Spell/Power with a long Casting Time. Either by delegating Temporal Acceleration to the Schism or by letting the Schism handle the casting while the main body continually Manifests the desired PP loop and keeps up the TA. As long as your ML is high enough for the extra Actions, you can plug all kinds of things into it.

Well whatever the Psion can do, the Wizard/Dweomerkeeper can do it too since it's just an Ice Assassin away.

x + y >= y

It's a very short, simple argument but to me it's very valid. Wizards are better than anything/anyone since they can create exact copies of their opponent to fight on their side. Also the trick to create an infinite army of oneself that Kaelik shows is absurdly nice, and that's another thing the Psion can't do

Also isnt everything outside of the Base Campaign Setting book of Dragonlance 3rd party anyways?

Indeed, it's 3rd-party material. And frankly, I think that anything that has to do with time travel should be banned immediately by the DM. It's Pandora's box.

[Kaelik]

Also the trick to create an infinite army of oneself that Kaelik shows is absurdly nice, and that's another thing the Psion can't do

Psions can totally do that. Candles of Invocation exist, and the trick is literally activated by a Commoner at level 5. Casting the Wish spell is terrible, but getting an Efferti or Noble Djinn to wish for you is literally game breaking.

[Pippin]

Also the trick to create an infinite army of oneself that Kaelik shows is absurdly nice, and that's another thing the Psion can't do

Psions can totally do that. Candles of Invocation exist, and the trick is literally activated by a Commoner at level 5. Casting the Wish spell is terrible, but getting an Efferti or Noble Djinn to wish for you is literally game breaking.

Fair point, although I was talking about doing it on your own, without the usual efreeti cheese. DMs tend to ban magic items more easily than feats or PrCs.

Something that I didn't think to ask in my previous post:

The game doesn't stop pre-epic, but a none-epic Psion can learn cross-powers from an epic Psion using Psychic Chirurgery

How exactly would you justify that to your DM? If nobody in the team is Epic, how could you possibly bring up an Epic NPC Psion/Erudite that knows all of the powers you need? Even Thrallherds are limited to ECL 17, so I must lack imagination.

[SorO_Lost]

If nobody in the team is Epic, how could you possibly bring up an Epic NPC Psion/Erudite that knows all of the powers you need?

Technically you don't need them to be epic.

A 17th level Psion means they have a 9th level Discipline power for you to steal, it's like collecting MtG booster packs except Rare/Common usefulness is inverted because the better a Power is the more likely another Manifester having selected it. It's only the subject of how does one already know a 9th level Spell as a Power to use Psychic Chirurgery. And for that there is also an elephant in the room that no one has brought up because everyone knows the discussion stops there. True Dragons.

Using a Steel Dragon & 2nd party Dragonlance's Hasten the End & Bestow Curse I've shown how a Steel can jump form ECL6 to Epic Spellcasting as a temporary buff, with a 2nd party ban the initial ECL needs to be a little higher but it's still possible. The same can also be done with the Gem Dragons, they already obtain and advance Psion-based Manifesting so you can just retrain out their Discipline Focus to the Erudite (Which is still a psion). So they can buff up and then naturally learn 9th level Spells from willing targets, and Manifest Epic Powers for kicks and giggles. They can force Epic usage in a none-Epic game provided the content it's self isn't banned off the table by the DM but...

How exactly would you justify that to your DM?

I'm not sure you can justify what's being said by either side if it were to ever happen on the tabletop.
Player: "I broke the crap out of your game."
DM: "What? Why?"
Player: "Umm, boredom?"

[Aliek]

I am waiting for someone to explain to me how the Psion can manifest a costless Ice Assassin as a standard action.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure linked power works

[Kaelik]

I am waiting for someone to explain to me how the Psion can manifest a costless Ice Assassin as a standard action.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure linked power works

Since an Erudite can't actually learn 9th level spells at all, that might be difficult.

I have no idea what Epic Psionics looks like because Epic is nonsense but the rules are:
"Learning Discipline Powers: . . . In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest."

So until you can learn 10th level power you can't learn it at all. If you argue that instead, you have an Epic Erudite who can learn 10th level powers use Psychic Whatever to give it to you, (Why would he ever do that?)

Then I counter that my Epic Cleric Buddy can use Epic Spellcasting to create a creature with True Mind Switch at will, along with all Wizard spells and all Cleric spells, and all Druid Spells, and all Psionic abilities, and all the abilities of all monsters as Supernatural Abilities at will, under his control, and then order it to True Mind Switch with me, and then I can cast Ice Assassin at will as a Supernatural Ability. Because any sentence that begins with "I have an Epic Character who is my friend and does things to help me out for no benefit of his own" is a little silly on first principles.

[Maelphaxerazz]

DMs tend to ban magic items more easily than feats or PrCs.
...
How exactly would you justify that to your DM?

Oh, absolutely, any DM would shut these tricks down before you can say "go." The thing is, "DMs tend to" ban anything that would end the game on the spot, no matter if it is from a magic item, Wish, wizard, psion, completely legit feat or PrC, or a hobo with a shotgun. That's what makes this stuff Theoretical Optimization. We're all mucking about here with thought experiments and we know it, because of course no DM running an actual game would allow an infinite spell or PP loop, even if all rulebooks said "This is allowed" in every other paragraph.

TO threads are based on the idea of a robotic DM that allows anything technically permissible in the rules. It is about as silly as drowning a character to heal them from -9 to 0 hp, or using Sarrukhs to give yourself salient divine abilities, or any other nonsense we could think up.

[zook1shoe]

Theres a trait in PF that makes your wishes not get screwed up

[Pippin]

I am waiting for someone to explain to me how the Psion can manifest a costless Ice Assassin as a standard action.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure linked power works

Since an Erudite can't actually learn 9th level spells at all, that might be difficult.

I have no idea what Epic Psionics looks like because Epic is nonsense but the rules are:
"Learning Discipline Powers: . . . In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest."

So until you can learn 10th level power you can't learn it at all. If you argue that instead, you have an Epic Erudite who can learn 10th level powers use Psychic Whatever to give it to you, (Why would he ever do that?)

Then I counter that my Epic Cleric Buddy can use Epic Spellcasting to create a creature with True Mind Switch at will, along with all Wizard spells and all Cleric spells, and all Druid Spells, and all Psionic abilities, and all the abilities of all monsters as Supernatural Abilities at will, under his control, and then order it to True Mind Switch with me, and then I can cast Ice Assassin at will as a Supernatural Ability. Because any sentence that begins with "I have an Epic Character who is my friend and does things to help me out for no benefit of his own" is a little silly on first principles.

I agree here. For Psions to be as overpowered as Wizards, the Psion's player usually has to bring up much, much more cheese, along with many dubious arguments, before getting to the point where he'd know all spells indeed. I think it's not worth the trouble for someone who wants to be God.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure linked power works

That's for example one of the dubious arguments I was talking about. That's not even RAW, it's simply unspecified. No DM would ever allow you to manifest a free Reality Revision out of Linked Power.

[Kaelik]

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure linked power works

That's for example one of the dubious arguments I was talking about. That's not even RAW, it's simply unspecified. No DM would ever allow you to manifest a free Reality Revision out of Linked Power.

Actually, it turns out that all Psionic abilities are manifested as a Standard action, since none of the Psi-Like Abilities manifested by a Psion or Erudite have a different listed casting time.

So level 1 Shapers can no save lock people in a cage of wood and laugh manically as a standard action an infinite number of times per day.

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures).

PLAs have all the same text about casting times, XP costs, that SLAs have. They also explicitly cost no power points.

Who the fuck was this dumb? Every time I read anything about Psionics, it somehow gets even dumber.

[SorO_Lost]

I agree here. For Psions to be as overpowered as Wizards, the Psion's player usually has to bring up much, much more cheese, along with many dubious arguments, before getting to the point where he'd know all spells indeed. I think it's not worth the trouble for someone who wants to be God.

So we're at the point of reaching for very personally subjective terms in order to ignore the capacity of another: ie the Wizard is too cheesy in Fighter vs Wizard threads and in a Psion vs Wizard thread the Psion is too cheesy here. You know, if I didn't already predict this was going to happen of the title over a week ago this might have been shocking news. To literately no one. 

fyi, Bestow Power might be a cheesy loop but Mental Pinnacle is an intended PP granter that existed in the must-have book before the combiner (StP) was made. Likewise Mindfeeder & Dweomer Of Transference are both intended methods of recovering PP and Mindfeeder was even nerfed in the MiC through still allows for an uncapped +1pp/15dmg. And while Trigger Power was never updated, likely due to how should you handle Augmentation with it, it's living proof that the authors thought a Psion should manifest his favorite, lower level, powers as often as he wishes. The biggest problem with infinite PP isn't that it's obtainable, but it's intended for you to have more PP than the Class initially grants.

The rest of the debate for the Psion not uncanny stealing every element of claim the Wizard has by claiming special exception. - Like Epic is banned or True Dragons are too cheesy - or out of ignorance like Kaelik claiming it's impossible to learn 9th level Powers but he has no idea what the Epic Manifesting rules are.

(click to show/hide)

Since an Erudite can't actually learn 9th level spells at all, that might be difficult.

I have no idea what Epic Psionics looks like because Epic is nonsense but the rules are:

Epic Psionics looks like A) You can take Epic Manifesting and use all the Epic Spell rules but as powers & B) Epic Power levels widely vary but they are treated in all ways as 10th level Powers. Also Epic Erudite also explicitly states that "each time an erudite attains a new level, he learns two new powers of any level or levels that he can manifest." So no it's not impossible, it's just Epic sort of like how a Juvenile+ Gold Dragon is Epic but that never stops someone from bringing up how you can Gate one in.

And yes, Psion Powers are Standard Actions, they can be Manifested in any armor (it's free still spell!), performed in a Grapple while Pinned with a successful Concentration Check just as they can be performed within an area of Silence without error (it's free silent spell!), all displays of the power can be surpassed with with a Concentration Check (it's free invisible spell!), you don't even have to know a Spell/Power to Manifest it since you can make a Psicraft check to link to another willing creature and then you can just use their list directly, PLAs are automatically augmented up to the Creature's ML (which is typically the same as their HD) and are totally XP free, etc.

Arguments for psionics are broken were entirely right, even scaled against Spellcasting they were unfairly buffed. The base of the system is simply superior to Magic. It's only in the specific Spells, like Planar Bubble or a Mirror of Opposition (wait that's not a spell!), that the Magic system is better. But the StP Erudite wasn't made to say it's possible for a Psion to use those specific Spells, it was made to say Psions have those specific Spells; even if they have to come from other party members.

[Kaelik]

Epic Psionics looks like A) You can take Epic Manifesting and use all the Epic Spell rules but as powers & B) Epic Power levels widely vary but they are treated in all ways as 10th level Powers. Also Epic Erudite also explicitly states that "each time an erudite attains a new level, he learns two new powers of any level or levels that he can manifest." So no it's not impossible, it's just Epic sort of like how a Juvenile+ Gold Dragon is Epic but that never stops someone from bringing up how you can Gate one in.

Are you contractually obligated to lie in every post, or is it just how you get your fucking kicks?

No, no one is claiming that your level 21 fucking Erudite can't do what the fuck ever he wants. No one fucking cares. Anyone with access to Epic Spellcasting is already capable of doing anything and everything any character in the entire game can ever do, you can literally just fucking give yourself SLA Ice Assassin at will, and use it to give yourself all the Divine Ranks, you can be immune to literally everything in the fucking game, you can be immune to fucking Gate, and Magic, and saving throws, and everything else in the fucking universe as soon as you hit level 21. No one cares.

No one said your level 21 Erudite can't be broken as fuck, and no one said your level level 20 Erudite who has a level 21 Erudite who for some reason is so dumb that he allowed himself to be gated, and then Mindraped can't break the game, and no one said that your level 20 Erudite who has a level 21 Erudite as his best Friends can't be broken. Which is why, if you weren't a lying sack of shit, you might have noticed that the very post you quoted featured an argument stating that if you are going to argue "my level 20 Erudite makes friends with Epic Characters" that literally zero fucking people give even the slightest fucking shit, because they can also do the same fucking thing, exactly as well, because what is granted by Divine Epic Spellcasting is actually literally every ability in the entire game and also every ability you can conceive with no limits of any kind.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

...

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures).

PLAs have all the same text about casting times, XP costs, that SLAs have. They also explicitly cost no power points.

Who the fuck was this dumb? Every time I read anything about Psionics, it somehow gets even dumber.

Yeah that part, all 3.5e Psi is (ps)
was just as much conveniently
ignored, as all 3.0e Psi was (su).

T.O. on the other hand ... 


_{but I digress, don't let me interrupt.}

[SorO_Lost]

Paraphrased: Fuckity fuck fuck fuck!

Meh.

Yeah that part, all 3.5e Psi is (ps) was just as much conveniently ignored, as all 3.0e Psi was (su).

Not quite. The 3.0 the Psionics Handbook really didn't care to address Su other than it's there, it does invent "Spell-Like Psionic Abilities" through on page 40 but it's less of an issue since in 3.0 I don't think any Power had an XP cost.

For the most part through, the Expanded, or 3.5 version, is superior. It's meant to be since in 3.0 Psionics were pretty weak. The six way split on Powers sucked, the Powers were low key and none-scaling, they really didn't cover anything fun outside of how Metamorphosis would turn you into inanimate objects (so you could just Awaken your self), half of them were Spell rip offs, etc.