[3.5, TO] About Psions being more broken than Wizards

[Pippin]

Hello,

I remember a thread on GitP where Emperor Tippy said that, if we were to consider TO to an ultimate level, Psions were more powerful than Wizards because they can learn every single spell in the game (Wyrm Wizard -> StP Erudite -> Telepath, plus dubious shenanigans for 9th-level spells). That sounds like a strong argument, but sometimes I'm just not so sure.

1. Would you consider legal for a Dweomerkeeper (CD) to cast any spell as a supernatural spell because the casting time has been reduced to 1 standard action thanks to Uncanny Forethought (either because of Spell Mastery, or because of Arcane Spellsurge)?

2. Assuming the answer to the above question is yes, does this not severely weaken Psions as there is no way for them to manifest, for example, a free Ice Assassin as a standard action? It is my understanding that, although Wizards can't get access to all spells, it is possible for them to disregard casting times, or costs, or both, which is something Psions can't do.

Thanks in advance.

[RobbyPants]

This would seem to make them more versatile, but I'm not sure I'd say "more broken". You can already break the game using the Sorcerer/Wizard Spell list, so, by definition, Wizards are already broken. Once the game has already been broken, breaking it more or harder doesn't seem to matter.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Its not all that hard to get Divine / Arcane casters access to almost every spell / power in the game either. Hell, Miracle gives you access to almost everything, up to all 7th level or lower spells/powers and 8th level cleric spells.

Divine and Arcane casters just have more tricks up there sleeves though. Off the top of my head, last time I checked it was very difficult to meta a power more then 2 times what with the psionic focus expenditure. Arcane/Divine Casters have a much easier time at stacking a shit ton of metamagic onto a spell.

Also the psionic power lists only have a few things unique to them compared to spellcasters, so giving them access to all spells really puts them at an even playing field with what those spells could potentially do. At like what RobbyPants said, once everyone is shooting Nukes at each other, the size of the nuke becomes a little irrelevant when its going to kill you either way.

Id imagine it has less to do with what you have access to at that point and more to do with what resources you have left to invest elsewhere after that point.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Non C.O. is a solid No.  And shame on whomever, for thinking Psi is Brokney.

C.O. if you've read Tiers, it's a pretty straightforward No.
(excepting recharge of course, obligatory Tail  wagging)

The C.O./T.O. border, whatever that might be,
is still No for Psions, but the case can be made
for Erudite because self generating ExKn loops.

"Ultimate" T.O. wtf that means, something like an
Erudite StP 11 / Thrallherd 10 with all the trimmings,
could learn new spells by slaughtering Thralls.
At some point --> assuming all of Sigil is taking a nap 
slinging spell point arcane 9s (and a little more) with
easy action abuse and no expensive M components.
Yeah I can see that being rather tasty.

[SorO_Lost]

It's all about the easy of breaking. Like a Sorcerer has all the same broken Spells as the Wizard, but the Wizard can switch his broken Spell choice daily through he has to preplan, and gets Spells faster, and gets Bonus Feats, and has better ACFs. So yeah the Wizard is in short simply better.

The Wizard can also use Mental Pennicle and another Psion's Psychic Chirurgery to learn, access, and manifest a bunch of powers before the Spell runs out. Of course, the Wizard doesn't really have access to the Sorcerer List (like wings of cover) and has to use limited-use items, same for accessing the Cleric's List such as items or Summons.

The StP Erudite Psion however gets almost all those Wizard Spells without needing to preplan anything. His "spells" are automatically Stilled & Silented too. The Psion doesn't have to prep a "Spell" to cross-access Spellcasting either. Thanks to a half dozen infinite PP tricks Psion has infinite "Spells" per day whereas the Wizard still needs to take a nap to fill his Slots. And the Psion has inherent Arcane access meaning he can learn a Gold Dragon's Clerical Heal just as easily as he can learn a Sorcerer's Wings of Flurry or a Child of Eberron's Drudic Goodberry or a Silver Pryomancer's Paladinish Holy Sword.

So out of the two, which one will have an easier time breaking the game?

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

In regards to Psions and infinite PP, Spellcasters do have a few tricks they can pull off for infinite spells too, they just generally dont need to as most can have 6 spells per level easy enough with bonus spells and have plenty of ways to increase that as well. Psions need the extra PP as they often need to augment their powers to keep them in line with spells. StP Erudites have a little easier time with their spell-power scaling though, but at that point they probably dont need PP regeneration tricks either.

Also there is the fact that Erudites must always have an equal number of Erudite levels as they do with any other Psionic class or they lose the ability to add powers to their list outside of the 2 they gain per level. Sure there are not as many psionic PrC options worth using, but being stuck with 10 base class levels that otherwise only grant a bonus feat every 5 levels is pretty limiting on its own.

Being honest though you are probably going to just go Erudite 10 / Thrallherd 10 anyways, just like spellcasters are probably going to go Incanatrix often enough. There are options to get a effective 2nd cohort as well though, and once you get Animate Dread Warrior in the mix the Leadership options become a bit mute. Though at this point we are in heavy cheese territory.

[Solo]

It's all about the easy of breaking. Like a Sorcerer has all the same broken Spells as the Wizard, but the Wizard can switch his broken Spell choice daily through he has to preplan, and gets Spells faster, and gets Bonus Feats, and has better ACFs. So yeah the Wizard is in short simply better.

I limited wish sorcerers had access to psychic reformation. 

[SorO_Lost]

In regards to Psions and infinite PP, Spellcasters do have a few tricks they can pull off for infinite spells too,

Not really. Planeshift to a fast time plane and that 4 hour bedroll != infinite but faster recovery. Attempting to spam Ice Assassin? You'll run out of XP and they will run out of Slots at some point. The only infinite thing they have is wishing for more wishes.

Also the StP Erudite doesn't really care about Augmentation since Buffs & Save-or-dies don't care, only damage requires Augmentation which is the least useful form of Spellcasting. So those Augmentation-intended Power Points just means more Powers per day than a Sorcerer has Spells. Also it doesn't matter if 1, 2, or 1.76 loosely means "overpowered", the guy with 'infinite' beats the guy with '6'. Way to totally miss the entire point of my last post and the title of the thread that asks about Psions being more broken than Wizards vs the simplistic question of are they broken or not.

I limited wish sorcerers had access to psychic reformation. 

It costs 300xp or more each use and a 7th level Slot.

...And the Wizard can do it too.
...Except he gets to do that with his Spells each day for free.
...And as already mentioned, Mental Pinnacle to Psionic Power is much more optimal. 5th (or 6th?) level Slot & 50xp/lvl so as long as you don't exceed 7 levels it's strictly better.

Come on guys, this is pretty basic. How on earth could you miss it? Are you guys really so bored this weekend you feel like you need to more some kind of poor point about how maybe your Incantatrix Wizard might be better than a generic Psion? Do we need a Fighter vs Wizard thread so you can tell us how smacking people with a club in a very particular way means the Fighter is better than the Wizard as long as you measure one tiny little aspect no one really cares about?

[Kaelik]

Not really. Planeshift to a fast time plane and that 4 hour bedroll != infinite but faster recovery. Attempting to spam Ice Assassin? You'll run out of XP and they will run out of Slots at some point. The only infinite thing they have is wishing for more wishes.

So now we've reached the point were the made up class that doesn't exist also bypasses XP costs? How does an Erudite get to cast infinity Ice Assassins without spending XP? And how is that any different from a Wizard who has enough XP for Ice Assassin twice making an Ice Assassin of himself and then having the Ice Assassin make an Ice Assassin of him, and then have that Ice Assassin make an Ice Assassin of him, and then have that Ice Assassin make an Ice Assassin of him, ect.

Or for that matter, just making a scroll of Ice Assassin and then casting Astral Projection.

Wizards can have infinite spells as easily as Psions, heck, last I checked, Wizards can have effective casting stats of 200 or whatever, and never run out of spells and have huge DCs with bullshit that Erudites don't have access to.

[SorO_Lost]

So now we've reached the point were the made up class that doesn't exist also bypasses XP costs?

Oh look it's Kaelik. 

And how is that any different from a Wizard who has enough XP for Ice Assassin twice making an Ice Assassin of himself and then having the Ice Assassin make an Ice Assassin of him, and then have that Ice Assassin make an Ice Assassin of him, and then have that Ice Assassin make an Ice Assassin of him, ect.

The loop isn't infinite, which is what I just said in my last post.

Look, it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. Ever. So let me explain it to you, the Wizard loses 5,000xp casting the Spell and it's when the Spell goes into effect it duplicates the target. So each clone has 5,000 less XP than the last and the pyramid will eventually become unable to cast 9th level Spells just past the third iteration (which has 12 clones).

I also never said the Erudite was even using Ice Assassin or ignoring XP costs. That's a very poor assumption on your part built on your very limited knowledge and imagination being unable to think of any other possible way to produce an infinite value in D&D. Also, if your point starts off with how I need to acknowledge XP limitations, how exactly did you think the second part which is totally based on the Wizard ignoring XP costs gets a free double-standard pass?

Wizards can have infinite spells as easily as Psions, heck, last I checked, Wizards can have effective casting stats of 200 or whatever, and never run out of spells and have huge DCs with bullshit that Erudites don't have access to.

This is also an equally retarded point. 200 Intelligence gives a lot of Bonus Spells but a lot isn't infinite.

Also a Wizard cannot have 200 in Intelligence without abusing Manipulate Form, something a Psionic can equally perform through both Classes are out performed by the superior Divine Minion Template.

Edit - Also I think I used the word also too much.
Look, the using any PP generation trick the Psion begins to manifest Temporal Acceleration, each new Power resetting the duration giving a Warforged (no sleep needed or death form old age) Psion an infinite amount of Actions and Power Points. He could literally carry away a planet handful by handful leaving every living creature without an atmosphere or planet to hang out on or in. The Psion with nothing more than CPsi has an eternity to arrange for the mass genocide of an entire multiverse of creatures - because why just stop at one planet or plane? - before anyone even has access to 9th level Spells within the time limitation of a Swift Action and that's like one trick of many; but it's a trick that uses actual infinites that are easily obtainable to demonstrate what infinite power can just as easily be used to do. Even a poor TO 1x10^100^100 time plane to rest and recovery Spells are still has a larger limitation than that since again that's a finite number and the Wizard still blows 6 seconds of real time to interact with anything on the Material Plane. Hell, Wishing for a Ring of Wishes to wish for more Rings & Time Stops still takes several more levels to pull off and uses a Standard Action instead of a Swift, not to mention the initial 5,000xp start up cost which can't even be paid if two people built example 20th level builds unless bonus XP was also handed out. One is strictly better than the other and there isn't a contest between them.

[Solo]

It costs 300xp or more each use and a 7th level Slot.

...And the Wizard can do it too.
...Except he gets to do that with his Spells each day for free.

Actually, how does it work with a wizard? Do the spells in his book rearrange themselves?

[ketaro]

To be fair, Soro, having infinite spells/powers per day does not actually beat having limited spells/powers per day if both sides are ending the "fight" with the first spell/power they cast/manifest. Which is easy to assume they can if we're that far into this optimization exercise.

#probablystuffthatneednotbesaid 

[SorO_Lost]

Actually, how does it work with a wizard? Do the spells in his book rearrange themselves?

Oh your aim is Sorcerer>Wizard and not that "The Wizard already has that Spell in his book and just needs to reprepare things". Well the Wizard learns two Spells at every level and using Spell Mastery he doesn't need a book. But yes the trick is much more useful to you if you happen to be a Sorcerer.

To be fair, Soro, having infinite spells/powers per day does not actually beat having limited spells/powers per day if both sides are ending the "fight" with the first spell/power they cast/manifest. Which is easy to assume they can if we're that far into this optimization exercise.

#probablystuffthatneednotbesaid 

That's like the third time this has come up in 24 hours.

Here is the gist.
1. [3.5, TO] About Psions being more broken than Wizards != are Psions broken?
2. I already asked if people wanted to argue so badly if they needed a Fighter vs Wizard debate.
Try to keep both those things in mind because I'm operating on them. Literally your point reboils down to how do spells matter if an ubercharger vs Spellcaster are both able to end the fight in the first round. 

Well, I'd say one of those Spells/Powers make the other Action entirely irrelevant. Like Contingency Teleport says no to an ubercharger or a Psion using Fisson, Time Hop, & Time Regression forcing the events to start anew from this morning removes the possibility of failure from the Psion's end even if it doesn't guarantee his success. Thorough my favorite is Forced Dream & Quintessence. I mean a Wizard spends a week casting Contact Other Plane, requiring a Deity capable of asking the questions, wants to answer them, and an opposing Deity to decide not to interfere, to get an idea of how the events will play out during next month allowing the Wizard to attempt a new plan of action with a better success rate. We've all heard that TO near-omnisentience but do you know what's even better?

Fission, Forced Dream, kick the copy into a pool of Quintessence. If the guy is ever pulled out, such as because the pool is set to drain ten thousand years from now or the inevitable heat death of the universe causes the pool to drift apart the clone is free and able to restart from his last turn, and the entire trick, from eons ago. But the real gem is you go back and murder your self as he's getting freed thus the player becomes the clone and transfers all memory of all the time and actions spent in between which thanks to the Elan (or warforged race) has no real internal maximum. So while the has to Wizard ask someone better than him what is going to happen, the Psion lives the future over and over and over again obtaining true omisentience because on every single iteration he can experimental with a new set of actions for an infinite amount of times and thus learns every single possible outcome rather than a vague understanding of a specific interval of time. This of course includes if anyone would ever find his clone since through the Terminator trick the Psion automatically knows if it's ever in any real danger and uses either trick of time reversion to handle it.

Of course, the trick also means the Psion can live infinitely longer than his entire multiverse will ever exist, but that's just a side effect of things. Hell, once the Psion learned literally everything about what can happen in the multiverse he can just use Microcosm & Dream Walk to simulate his own entire multiverse an infinite amount of times and he can choose to add his different combinations people from the last universe to it to avoid boredom. So not only does he learn every possible action a single given person can take in a single given universe he learns every uncountably infinite action a single person would take in every single reality born from nearly every single combination of living beings that could ever exist. How exactly are you sure you're not living in a simulated reality right now or that any D&D game you quit playing doesn't have a Psion repeating the world over and over again because he fears nonexistance hmm?

Again, the inherent abilities of the Psion vastly eclipse the inherent abilities of the Wizard. Sure much later on the Wizard could find a Psion to do the work for him, but a Fighter would ask a Wizard to beat the other Wizard up too. We've had lots of practice to try getting one of these discussions right hopefully soon and it's apparent it would not be this time. But I mean why? If you go back to the Teir concept the difference of being able to change your Spells daily is about all that separates T1 from T2 and the Psion can do that with the concept of days. A variable Known vs set list is all that separates T2 from T3 and the StP Erudite version of the Psion has the widest pool of Spells to inherently choose from that exceeds the natural limitations of any T1 listed Class. Why exactly can these traits separate others but not separate the Psion? Hell, Psion can be a placeholder honestly, I mean are you going to claim a Beholder Mage isn't any better than a Wizard or Illthid Savant is similarly limited? Both of those Classes exceed the model too. There is an easy answer to be had here but instead of the easy road everyone wants to drag things out into an argument.

[Kaelik]

The loop isn't infinite, which is what I just said in my last post.

Look, it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. Ever. So let me explain it to you, the Wizard loses 5,000xp casting the Spell and it's when the Spell goes into effect it duplicates the target. So each clone has 5,000 less XP than the last and the pyramid will eventually become unable to cast 9th level Spells just past the third iteration (which has 12 clones).

Look, if you are too fucking stupid to read what I actually said, then maybe you should avoid expressing opinions at all, much less conclusively stating that I have no idea what I'm talking about in a bout of irony so funny it is painful. But here, I'll explain this like I would to a 4 year old, since that's what is required for you to understand:

1) There is a Wizard who is, hypothetically level 17 and he also has 10,000xp more than that. His Name is Jim.
2) Jim makes an Ice Assassin of himself. This costs 5000xp, he now has 5000xp. This Ice Assassin is named Bob and has 5000xp.
3) Bob makes an Ice Assassin of Jim, not of himself, of Jim. This Ice Assassin, called Cooter, has 5000xp, because he's a clone of Jim, who has 5000xp.
4) Cooter makes an Ice Assassin of Jim. Again, Jim. Not himself. This Ice Assassin is called Detroit, and has 5000xp.
5) Detroit makes an Ice Assassin of who? Can you fucking guess?

I also never said the Erudite was even using Ice Assassin or ignoring XP costs. That's a very poor assumption on your part built on your very limited knowledge and imagination being unable to think of any other possible way to produce an infinite value in D&D. Also, if your point starts off with how I need to acknowledge XP limitations, how exactly did you think the second part which is totally based on the Wizard ignoring XP costs gets a free double-standard pass?

No, you just strongly implied that Erudites don't have XP costs, because you said "Erudites have all the infinite combos of Wizards, but Wizards only have Wishing for Wishes, they can't infinite Ice Assassin because XP." Which is basically just you being the lying asshole you always are.

I don't care if the class you made up in your head does or doesn't have to pay XP costs, it really doesn't matter to me. I just thought it was funny that you thought that was a reasonable thing to claim. Ice Assassin and Astral Projection are broken, this shouldn't be news to anyone.

Also a Wizard cannot have 200 in Intelligence without abusing Manipulate Form, something a Psionic can equally perform through both Classes are out performed by the superior Divine Minion Template.

1) I didn't say "Intelligence" I said "Effective casting stat" because unlike Psions, Wizards can take a level of Tainted Scholar, and be undead, and cast DC too fucking high spells.

2) Their large amount of spells from a high casting stat really isn't that important, since they already have infinite spells, who cares.

Look, the using any PP generation trick the Psion begins to manifest Temporal Acceleration, each new Power resetting the duration giving a Warforged (no sleep needed or death form old age) Psion an infinite amount of Actions and Power Points. He could literally carry away a planet handful by handful leaving every living creature without an atmosphere or planet to hang out on or in. The Psion with nothing more than CPsi has an eternity to arrange for the mass genocide of an entire multiverse of creatures - because why just stop at one planet or plane? - before anyone even has access to 9th level Spells within the time limitation of a Swift Action and that's like one trick of many; but it's a trick that uses actual infinites that are easily obtainable to demonstrate what infinite power can just as easily be used to do. Even a poor TO 1x10^100^100 time plane to rest and recovery Spells are still has a larger limitation than that since again that's a finite number and the Wizard still blows 6 seconds of real time to interact with anything on the Material Plane. Hell, Wishing for a Ring of Wishes to wish for more Rings & Time Stops still takes several more levels to pull off and uses a Standard Action instead of a Swift, not to mention the initial 5,000xp start up cost which can't even be paid if two people built example 20th level builds unless bonus XP was also handed out. One is strictly better than the other and there isn't a contest between them.

Look, any Commoner can do the same thing with a staff of Timestop (or infinitely many of them) which comes online at level 5. You just ready an action to use the staff of Timestop with your auto success UMD check from an item during the Timestop, then when the Time stop ends, your readied action triggers and you enter a new times stop, do whatever you want for a round (such as using your staff of wish to wish for a new staff of timestop) and then ready an action again. Your super OP only Psion trick is doable by any level 5 character.

[SorO_Lost]

1) There is a Wizard who is, hypothetically level 17 and he also has 10,000xp more than that. His Name is Jim.
2) Jim makes an Ice Assassin of himself. This costs 5000xp, he now has 5000xp. This Ice Assassin is named Bob and has 5000xp.

The problem with that method is every single clone wants to kill the caster, and if your theoretical caster is theoretically smart enough to kill a superior target then it's also theoretically smart enough to subvert the wording of it's orders. As you should know that phone chains, or gossip sharing, or relayed orders, etc. will change as they cycle down the line. A great example would be Miranda Rights, every department is staffed full of people trained to deliver them, know full well how required it is, are well practiced rather than being newbies, virtually everyone already knows about them to the point of common knowledge outside of a few boards on the Internet, the statement sits on a piece of paper to be read off to them ensuring word for word repetition each time is possible, and the process still goes wrong and there isn't even intent mongering to be had in the process like oops I used Holy Word near you and u ded.

But I suppose I digress into examples, I like them. The root problem with nearly every infinite loop, be is Ice Assassin, Wish, or even Quintessence is they all behave like the Garden of Eden. And that is given enough time all eventualities will happen or ie while time in the garden is infinite at some point Satan will eventually successfully tempt Eve and they get booted out. This could be in the form of how an Ice Assassin loop adds new members to the end as it kills the members closest to the last linked beginning until the chain has produces to many fractions is dissolves back to individualism or the heat death of the universe prevents you from digging through the pile of useless metal rings to find a working Ring of Three Wishes.

Like Quintessence it's self is totally endless and instead banks on inevitability to interrupt the process so the loop can force things to start back at the beginning. It then can nest inside loops of Microcosm, in which each falsely generated universe pretends Microcosm can stack so even if an outcome that'd prevent the loop form ever restarting again can simply be folded backwards into a next-higher level of reality. In a way it's a D&D take on Universalism in that everything everyone has ever known or will be all comes from a singular source that will eventually return back to the creator who can restart the entire process anew. It's only true exit point is the choice to stop, sort of like my choosing not to give a fuck to reply to your Microcosm induced reality that I said or meant what you think I did.

And if you read anything past the first post that introduced the concept of an Undead Tainted Scholar you'd know that Evil/Undead are immune to Taint/Depravity and cannot increase their scores through normal means. They instead have an effective score based on their Charisma which means infinite Depravity in turn is based off a loop that produces infinite Charisma. Except if you're going to go Pun-Pun'ing, why would take levels in Tainted Scholar when you can just increase your Intelligence directly? You're point is a step backwards from usefulness and introduces steps to complicate things. I'm noticing a fairly common theme across these threads where I reference something superior to whatever you bring up, am I honestly talking over your head and should I break things further apart so you can understand them?

And minor tangent on the whole let's discuss PrCs: Why? For the analog, consider a Fighter that entered Ur-Priest or a Ranger than became a Beholder Mage or a Rogue that became an Illthid Savant. Is you point actually about the usefulness of the Base Class or is it how awesome a certain Prestigious Class is? And if it's about PrCs, isn't the final point of the discussion about how an Epic Cerebremancer has all the best of traits of both the Psion and the Wizard and how the Illthid Savant steals that out from under it or how the Darklight Wizard obtains all of that and restarts the game back at level 1? PrCs make any given Class better, that's whyy we like them. But the topic isn't about what is the most powerful PrC or which one best compliments the Wizard (or Psion) better.

And you tried tried pushing a Commoner is equal to or better than both Classes because everyone can buy a Staff of Time Stop. Which has a less than 51 uses of Time Stop and in no way reflect the value of being able to cast it your self. ...I suppose I forgot you're Kaelik huh. I'm also also also pretty long winded today >.>

[Kaelik]

Oh, also if you read anything past the first post that introduced the concept of an Undead Tainted Scholar you'd know that Evil/Undead are immune to Taint/Depravity and cannot increase their scores through normal means. They instead have an effective score based on their Charisma which means infinite Depravity in turn is based off a loop that produces infinite Charisma. Except if you're going to go Pun-Pun'ing, why the hell wouldn't you skip taking levels in Tainted Scholar when you can just increase your Intelligence directly? You're point is a step backwards from usefulness and introduces steps to complicate things. You can't even keep up with the already superior points that I reference in passing.

If you actually read the rules, you would discover that the Taint rules for undead are basically undefined, sort of like the rules for Spell to Power Erudites, and while you could choose to make up rules that make them not capable of gaining taint, those rules are just as made up as any others (actually even more made up, since you are positing a change to the generic rule about lowered immunities based on nothing).

And minor tangent, why? For the analog, consider a Fighter that entered Ur-Priest or a Ranger than became a Beholder Mage or a Rogue that became an Illthid Savant. Is you point actually about the usefulness of the Base Class or is it how awesome a certain Prestigious Class is? And if it's about PrCs, isn't the final point of the discussion about how an Epic Cerebremancer has all the best of traits of both the Psion and the Wizard and how the Illthid Savant steals that out from under it or how the Darklight Wizard obtains all of that and restarts the game back at level 1?

An Epic Cleric has access to all abilities from anything in the game, who gives a fuck? The point is that if your super powered infinite loop trick that is the reason Psions are the most powerful is duplicated by a level 5 Commoner, then your trick probably wasn't all that special. Your belief in the superiority of Erudites or Psions as "the most TO" is based on the same dumb idea that tricks every class can do will only be allowed to some classes, and is thus, just as wrong as the last 500 times anyone said it.

Psions can get infinite power points, Wizards can get infinite spells. Who cares? I mean, you have some weird obsession with the idea that Psionics are better or something, but it's basically just nonsense.

Wait, never mind you just tried claiming a Commoner is better than both Classes as the only rebuttal.

I truly believe that some day you will learn how to read... Oh wait, no I don't.

[Pippin]

Well, that escalated quickly.

My only argument was that the Wizard is superior to the Psion because he can create a costless copy of him as a standard action. That is, after casting Time Stop as an immediate action (Celerity). I'm not sure that this argument has ever been countered, but if it has I apologize for the spam.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

  what'd you expect.

Trying to define how far up the Matryoshka Doll chain
of T.O. you wanna go ... is fodder for all sorts of arguing.


iirc - way back when Pun-pun first hit,
FrankT speculated that a Wizard could
buy a scroll or two, and do it faster than
anyone else that way.  No one took him
up on so generous an offer.  If so ...
scrolls are more available than powerstones.
Therefore :

[Maelphaxerazz]

My only argument was that the Wizard is superior to the Psion because he can create a costless copy of him as a standard action. That is, after casting Time Stop as an immediate action (Celerity). I'm not sure that this argument has ever been countered, but if it has I apologize for the spam.

It has been countered by pointing out the Erudite, which is a variant Psion and therefore counts. The Spell-to-Power variant Erudite can learn spells as powers, which means psions (of a sort) can learn Ice Assassin, Time Stop and Celerity just fine.

I'd further add that if one wishes to use the spells as standard psions, one can learn the power in various ways from an erudite (for example, using Psychic Chirurgery). Therefore particular spells available to wizards cannot be used to argue that wizards are more broken than psions, because any spell the wizard can cast the psion can learn too, if necessary.

[Pippin]

My only argument was that the Wizard is superior to the Psion because he can create a costless copy of him as a standard action. That is, after casting Time Stop as an immediate action (Celerity). I'm not sure that this argument has ever been countered, but if it has I apologize for the spam.

It has been countered by pointing out the Erudite, which is a variant Psion and therefore counts. The Spell-to-Power variant Erudite can learn spells as powers, which means psions (of a sort) can learn Ice Assassin, Time Stop and Celerity just fine.

I'd further add that if one wishes to use the spells as standard psions, one can learn the power in various ways from an erudite (for example, using Psychic Chirurgery). Therefore particular spells available to wizards cannot be used to argue that wizards are more broken than psions, because any spell the wizard can cast the psion can learn too, if necessary.

Oh but from the beginning I was assuming that the Psion already knows every single spell in the game.

I am waiting for someone to explain to me how the Psion can manifest a costless Ice Assassin as a standard action. Then, once this has been established, I'd be curious to know how a non-Epic Psion could actually manage to learn Ice Assassin (or any 9th-level spell) in the first place, but that's secondary.