Immunity to Negative Levels

[zugschef]

It's been a while since I've read the 3.0 version, but I seem to recall that the newer one is even more powerful.

3.5 incantatrix is indeed the more powerful version.

[SorO_Lost]

What's different?

[Garryl]

What's different?

The 3.0 Incantatrix doesn't have Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Effect. Just 2/day free metamagic and -1 to metamagic levels as their metamagic borking. No steal concentration and stuff like that either. The 3.0 version is almost kinda tame.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I love 3.0 stuff. Much less 'melee can't have nice things' 3.5 is so famous for.

Edit: Apologies to PlzBreakMyCampaign for thread derailment.

.... wha? Someone actually apologized for derailing my thread? Where am I? Quick someone troll/snark me!

[Halinn]

Quick someone troll/snark me!

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

[SorO_Lost]

Quick someone troll/snark me!

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

Is there someone else up there we can talk to?

[Soundwave]

And Psionics has a terrible (correct) conception of being broken

Does this include 3.5 psionics or just 3.0 in your opinion?

If it does include them, what specifically do you consider broken over the god awful mess that is core?

[Halinn]

And Psionics has a terrible (correct) conception of being broken

Does this include 3.5 psionics or just 3.0 in your opinion?

If it does include them, what specifically do you consider broken over the god awful mess that is core?

"Not as broken as core" does not mean "Not broken". I don't consider psionics to be any more broken than the rest of 3.5, but it needed to be said.

[shriekingdrake]

So what would you do if you had true immunity to any and all negative levels?

I'd probably go bowling.

[SorO_Lost]

And Psionics has a terrible (correct) conception of being broken

Does this include 3.5 psionics or just 3.0 in your opinion?
If it does include them, what specifically do you consider broken over the god awful mess that is core?

Looks like my quote.

Halinn pretty much got it right. (3.5) Psionic's are borked right out of the gate, CPsi only made things worse. It's like saying Wizards leveling quadratically with interplanar help is fair to everyone else.

And I really don't know 3rd's Psionic rules outside of a few older modern games I was in where powers were annoyingly split up between your six attributes.

[nijineko]

I'm a psionics fan, but I have to agree that even though it is less broken than core, it still has its breakable parts. However, I've never really had trouble dealing with high level shenanigans, my campaigns typically start around 16 or so. Only stuff I have some philosophical objection to gets banned in my games.

[Soundwave]

It depends on how you define "broken"

Psionics are no more capable then wizards clerics and druids. Often times much less so.

It seems like the general definition were using here is:  "if there is something to break the system is broken."

I can understand that purely from a mechanics perspective Psionics are for the most part just pale copies of wizards in the first place. The majority of their powers being straight copies or nerfed versions of a wizards spell list.

I personally find the XPH for example to be far more balanced then anything in core.  It isnt perfect but its clear to me that the designers did a better job overall. AKA Bruce ftw.

[Halinn]

Wizards don't have infinite spells, though. Psions can get infinite power points. And there's a fair amount of other broken psionic tricks.
Sure, it might not be able to break the game as much as the Cleric, Druid or Wizard lists, but it can do it a large number of times.

[Soundwave]

Wish cheese can grant you infinite spells, and planar shepherd for druids can accomplish similar things with their 10/1 bubble of awesome.

[nijineko]

i don't really get why people so consistently slam psionics. it may have its points to watch out for, but it really is less messed up than the magic system. i've been playing psionics since you could randomly roll disintegrate (no save, wasn't it?) and get all the pre-req powers it required automatically. plus power points to fuel it. psionics have been in the game since at least od&d, i don't know about the versions previous like 'tfg' or 'chainmail'.

besides, any game can get out of hand if the dm permits it. regardless of rules, books, or banning. i am reminded of a comment made once about chess. poor players will eliminate pieces rapidly until they reduce the game to a level of simplicity that they can handle.

the same goes with d&d. if someone eliminate rules, especially if they mass-ban stuff, it is quite possible that the person in question just can't handle a complex game.

of course, it would have helped if the designers had been allowed to write with more references than just the core books for such a long time. and numerous other factors.

[Soundwave]

There is more broken crap in core then the xph could ever be mined for.  3.0 psionics were broken as well but in a terrible way.

None of their powers scaled and they were even more inferior to their wizard counterparts then the xph stuff is today.

[Halinn]

I never said that psionics was as broken or more broken than core or the magic system. I'm just saying that it's also broken. Again, less broken does not mean not broken.

[SorO_Lost]

Wish cheese can grant you infinite spells, and planar shepherd for druids can accomplish similar things with their 10/1 bubble of awesome.

Badly supported by the DM only Wish cheese can yes, so can a lot of stuff go insane with a DM's intervention to make it so.

I think people need to move on to the better things in life too. Planar Bubble is a spell that does the same thing. As a spell it is usable by anyone with UMD and if used by a real caster can be subject to Extraordinary Spell Aim preventing the time trait from ever affecting your enemy simply because they charged you. Down with the Shepard!

***

The "Magic is broken too!" defense however is just plain annoying.
~I don't care if you think lava is worse. We're not discussing how hot lava is, burning alive is still painful, it kills, and it's still pretty fracking hot.~
If you want agree and concede it is too then don't pout and add "but big sister is worse". It's childish.

**

btw, not only is Psionics game breaking powerful, but it was worse.
Arcane Spellsurge? Printed months after Schism and it's still not helping the Wizard.
Celerity? Printed a month after Complete Psionic's turn breaking trick Anticipatory Strike.
Dal Quar abuse for faster spell recovery? Infinite Power Point tricks were out years before hand.
Dark Chaos Shuffle? Magic's answer to the years before printed Feat Leech.
And yeah, that's all the further I got before I quite looking. It's four examples of Psioinics being straight up more powerful and Magic had to sit on the side lines waiting for their much more dedicated and on going support to catch up. Which is kind of funny when you think about it after hearing about Magic is worse in a dozen posts. Like, sure it's worse now, after the designers started fixing things

[Jelvoden]

btw, not only is Psionics game breaking powerful, but it was worse.

Going along this line of argument, haste was giving wizards an extra spell each round while psions had six casting stats and before the XPH was a gleam in WotC's eye.  What was broken in the past isn't really relevant now (if it was, ad&d psionics would end every "most potentially broken magic-ish system" discussion ever).

I think the issue is less "psionics aren't broken" and more that the fact they are broken is bandied about while spells are accepted in their brokenness. Stated another way, no one is arguing that psionics is balanced with melee. Rather, their conception of being broken should be held in line with wizards as an assumption and not endlessly repeated. Overpowered transparency, if you will.
I imagine ToB advocates have a similar wish, though I am not as familiar with their situation as I am psionics'.

[SorO_Lost]

btw, not only is Psionics game breaking powerful, but it was worse.

Going along this line of argument, haste was giving wizards an extra spell each round while psions had six casting stats and before the XPH was a gleam in WotC's eye.

That's 3.0<>3.5 and hardly comparable. All the stuff I listed at 3.5 and only 3.5 based. Perhaps things would be interesting if we included 2e as well? From what I hear it's why people called Psionics broken even in the 3.0 days so I'm sure it has much to contribute.

And ToB isn't broken, hell it's not even over powered. Charging or TWF+SA deals ten times more damage than ToB maneuvers can. Those classes pick defensive buffs and utility making them less binary. Like the Barbarian either charges and thus kills everything in the encounter or to prevent that from happening he is completely and utterly gimped to a point an Animal Companion is better. A Warblade on the other hand can choose to use his White Raven maneuvers to provide benefits for the party should he him self be incapable of direct attack. A huge stand point to consider is they remain comparable, like even a Fighter can display utility with Skill Tricks or feats like Boomerang Daze and Knock-Down or even the lock down chain of feats on top of dealing more damage. Neither of those classes can wave their hands to rewrite reality or deny the chance of entire methods of attack from every affecting them.