Fixing AC costs

[RedWarlock]

So it seems to me, at high level it's just too easy to fall off the RNG in either direction..

My first thought when I checked the Tarrasque was, 'wait, that IS a high number', but then you also get into situations where Power Attack comes into effect. That +57 is high, but if you use PA... The BAB on the T is +48, meaning you could drop it anywhere between +9 and +57.. That ups the damage, but it's still a lot of tradeoff to-hit vs damage control available...

Almost makes me think doing both an offensive and defensive roll would be more worth it at these higher levels. It screws low-levels, too random, but high-end characters would see the RNG widen, giving a variety of AC options more importance.. Or maybe this is where a Parry mechanic could come into some benefit, adding a weapon-vs-weapon roll to add a certain value to the AC.. Or both..

(Don't mind me, not building towards a point, just thinking out loud here..)

[Jackinthegreen]

An issue with defense rolls is, well, rolling.  At high levels most tables will have a lot of rolling going on.  Adding more to that can get tedious or even overwhelming at times.

[Basket Burner]

Mirror Image runs out of images fast even if you can keep it up, and by RAW Touch spells can't be persisted (without a lot of work of course).  Both as such cost actions after the point where you're aware of the fight (whether you've engaged or not).  In general, a fight where you know what's going to happen in advance and can prep for it knowing exactly when it's going to happen is an easy fight.

Only if you run out of images.

Do you know of any other cost efficient defenses that work when you DON'T know in advance what you're facing?  In other words, the traditional "you're in X situation, when suddenly Y creature/creatures attack"?  AC is one of those (yes, it's lower when surprised, though most high AC builds seem to rely on things like armor that do work in those situations).  The Minor Cloak of Displacement (20% miss chance, 24kgp) is another, but obviously nowhere near 70% effectiveness (I'm not going to use made up numbers here... obviously a DM could optimize the creatures as much as they like, but then we're just making up numbers).  The Major Cloak of Displacement gets you to 50%, but it's 50kgp (useful eventually, but I'm not sure it's something I'd want at level 10 unless taking hits was the main thing I did).

It's called Persisted spells, and there's a reason why they are critical to the meta. Usually that reason is saves based, but they can work for physical attacks as well.

And yeah, as X-Codes says... you can buff AC.  Magic Vestment lasts a really long time without DMM Persist sorts of shenanigans (which are needed to make Mirror Image last a significant period of time. 

You still have low stat caps and slow progression though.

The discussion is about the needed AC to be effective at high levels, and how to fix the insane costs of getting it so high.  What's not to get?

For however high a monster's attack is, we need AC to be at least 11 more than that to become effective.  If we say the tarrasque is typical of a CR 20 encounter, then its +57 attack means a character would need in excess of 68 AC to be effective.

No, it means you'd need minimum 73. Only making it miss half the time means you could have saved a ton of resources and instead used a throwaway slot on Displacement.

The point is that AC is not completely worthless. AC is inefficient to increase after a certain point, which is rather different from worthless. Up until that point, it provides a cheap, large and more importantly passive miss chance for the single most common attack form in the game. 
If you have alternative defenses, the bulk of them take actions to raise and don't last long enough to use while traveling(for the rounds/level types, not even long enough for exploring), which is going to be trouble if you're surprised.

Stat caps ensure you do not have enough, as described before. Therefore, worthless is the correct word to describe it.

[Halinn]

The discussion is about the needed AC to be effective at high levels, and how to fix the insane costs of getting it so high.  What's not to get?

For however high a monster's attack is, we need AC to be at least 11 more than that to become effective.  If we say the tarrasque is typical of a CR 20 encounter, then its +57 attack means a character would need in excess of 68 AC to be effective.

No, it means you'd need minimum 73. Only making it miss half the time means you could have saved a ton of resources and instead used a throwaway slot on Displacement.

What item in a throwaway slot grants a permanent displacement effect?

[Basket Burner]

I didn't say throwaway item slot, did I?

[veekie]

As long as they grant you more than 20% miss chance and costs less than other miss chance sources, they are contributing to be sure.

[Basket Burner]

As long as they grant you more than 20% miss chance and costs less than other miss chance sources, they are contributing to be sure.

I assume that you mean AC. The problem with that is that the numbers given are the minimum values. If enemies start buffing and optimizing you need even more. And you're behind far enough to begin with. Miss chances are much more reliable.

[spacemonkey555]

Ok so you need an incantatrix probably, since you need to buff the whole party with persistent displacement. Then add a custom item of mirror image for each character. Should fly in any game.

I can see how in that context ac at half price would be worthless to someone who plans to never encounter npcs that dispel or have true seeing.

[Basket Burner]

Ok so you need an incantatrix probably, since you need to buff the whole party with persistent displacement. Then add a custom item of mirror image for each character. Should fly in any game.

I can see how in that context ac at half price would be worthless to someone who plans to never encounter npcs that dispel or have true seeing.

If you don't have persisted spells you don't have relevant physical defenses, so you kill them first instead. The people claiming AC is useful aren't talking about it being half price, much less half price with higher stat caps.

The characters that have true seeing and the characters that make physical attacks are mostly mutually exclusive. That leaves you with dispel, which would be a problem anyways, were you not already bulking up CLs to block that.

[littha]

The characters that have true seeing and the characters that make physical attacks are mostly mutually exclusive. That leaves you with dispel, which would be a problem anyways, were you not already bulking up CLs to block that.

Erynies are CR 8 and have decent ranged and melee options plus true seeing. Balors, Mariliths, Glabrezu and Nalfeshee all also have true seeing and decent melee attacks though at a higher ECL (Mariliths also have see invisibility as an SLA for some reason...). Same with Angels, Solars and Planatars have True seeing along with 2/3 of the SRD's Inevitables.

Then there are things with racial casting, Dragons and the like who are definitely a credible melee threat.

[Basket Burner]

The characters that have true seeing and the characters that make physical attacks are mostly mutually exclusive. That leaves you with dispel, which would be a problem anyways, were you not already bulking up CLs to block that.

Erynies are CR 8 and have decent ranged and melee options plus true seeing. Balors, Mariliths, Glabrezu and Nalfeshee all also have true seeing and decent melee attacks though at a higher ECL (Mariliths also have see invisibility as an SLA for some reason...). Same with Angels, Solars and Planatars have True seeing along with 2/3 of the SRD's Inevitables.

Then there are things with racial casting, Dragons and the like who are definitely a credible melee threat.

Outsiders are not melee. You can tell that they aren't because their stats are terrible. Constructs are not melee either. Dragons take so long to get to True Seeing levels that it hardly even matters. That, and at those same levels they'll easily put out 50-70 to hit or just use Wraithstrike, rendering AC pointless.

[Halinn]

I didn't say throwaway item slot, did I?

You did.

The characters that have true seeing and the characters that make physical attacks are mostly mutually exclusive. That leaves you with dispel, which would be a problem anyways, were you not already bulking up CLs to block that.

Erynies are CR 8 and have decent ranged and melee options plus true seeing. Balors, Mariliths, Glabrezu and Nalfeshee all also have true seeing and decent melee attacks though at a higher ECL (Mariliths also have see invisibility as an SLA for some reason...). Same with Angels, Solars and Planatars have True seeing along with 2/3 of the SRD's Inevitables.

Then there are things with racial casting, Dragons and the like who are definitely a credible melee threat.

Outsiders are not melee. You can tell that they aren't because their stats are terrible. Constructs are not melee either. Dragons take so long to get to True Seeing levels that it hardly even matters. That, and at those same levels they'll easily put out 50-70 to hit or just use Wraithstrike, rendering AC pointless.

If not melee, what is the combat role of a Glabrezu, Marilith, Nalfeshee, or any of the many other outsiders that don't have offensive spells/SLAs?
It might be that the outsiders and constructs aren't OMGSUPERAMAZING at melee, but if it is the only thing they are any good at, what else are they to do?

[Basket Burner]

I didn't say throwaway item slot, did I?

You did.

I did not.

"No, it means you'd need minimum 73. Only making it miss half the time means you could have saved a ton of resources and instead used a throwaway slot on Displacement."

I said throwaway slot. I did not specify what sort of slot. You assumed I meant item, but I never said that, and implied spell slot. I then went on to say that it was a spell slot.

If not melee, what is the combat role of a Glabrezu, Marilith, Nalfeshee, or any of the many other outsiders that don't have offensive spells/SLAs?
It might be that the outsiders and constructs aren't OMGSUPERAMAZING at melee, but if it is the only thing they are any good at, what else are they to do?

Glabrezu: Reverse Gravity, then weak save or loses.
Marilith: Blade Barrier, various illusions, Telekinesis.
Nalfeshnee: Weak save or loses.

They really aren't good at much of anything, except the Marilith that can launch a you die attack with TK. But they certainly are not there to use their incredibly underleveled physical attacks.

[snakeman830]

miss chance works against touch though, which ac in most cases doesn't...

If you're really trying to boost your AC, then you'll have a number of effects that boost your touch AC, too.  You're just not going to get there with only Full Plate + Shield + Nat Armor.

ok. but that is a major investment. on top of that miss chance works against targeted spells. ac is worthless against spells which don't require attack roles.

So are miss chances with three exceptions:

1. Swiftblade, which specifically states it works against targetted spells.

2. Total concealment, which denies any ability to target

3. Mirror Image, which has them targetting the wrong thing

Other than that, miss chances ONLY apply to attack rolls.

[Basket Burner]

I think he meant rays, but didn't explain it well.

[snakeman830]

I think he meant rays, but didn't explain it well.

well, rays still are done against AC, so his point would then be invalidated.

[Basket Burner]

No, they're done against touch AC, which is much lower. Meanwhile Ring of Entropic Deflection + the usual miss chances blocks quite a lot of rays.

[snakeman830]

No, they're done against touch AC, which is much lower. Meanwhile Ring of Entropic Deflection + the usual miss chances blocks quite a lot of rays.

Touch AC is still AC and they still require attack rolls.  That was the point I was making is that miss chances, with very few exceptions, are only any good against attack rolls, which is what AC is also only any good against (whether AC is meaning anything is irrelevant, it's still only good against attack rolls)

[zugschef]

I think he meant rays, but didn't explain it well.

well, rays still are done against AC, so his point would then be invalidated.

yeah, i didn't explain it well. my bad. i meant orbs and rays.

ac is worthless against a caster who messes with orbs and rays. these dedicated types will hit you 95% of the time.

[Mooncrow]

I think he meant rays, but didn't explain it well.

well, rays still are done against AC, so his point would then be invalidated.

yeah, i didn't explain it well. my bad. i meant orbs and rays.

ac is worthless against a caster who messes with orbs and rays. these dedicated types will hit you 95% of the time.

As mentioned earlier, there are 11 types of armor bonus; touch attacks negate three types - if you're trying to optimize armor, it's advisable not to rely on those three types very much

edit: forgot one, my bad ><