Gunpowder in D&D, or why do firearms get the shaft?

[veekie]

For arcing, its not so complicated. Quickplay rules for it can be:
-With arced arrows, ignore non-adjacent cover, but not concealment(which, improved precise shot deals with anyway). This includes total cover
-You can arc after the first range increment.
-You need vertical clearance equal to half the range of the shot. Yes, the arc is supposed to get steeper as you get closer to the target, but this is covered by the first range increment limitation, and its an acceptable break from reality thats easy to gauge. Effectively it means you need to be outdoors or in some massive dwarven hall or something.

For single shot, rather than flurry missile weapons, you need Aim rules to translate actions into damage increase(e.g. a feat to double damage on your next shot if you take a move action to aim, with an extension to make it triple at high BAB) and Power Shot rules to translate accuracy into damage. Class support wise...can't be helped.

[dman11235]

I have a class that I made that is specifically for long range, single shot bow users, so that's not a problem.

[Kasz]

Well in the setting I currently play in, which is very warhammer fantasy, the world has guns. Some cheap guns are black powder and balls - take a while to reload. There are also expensive rifles designed for long range. Reloading a musket or flintlock takes 2 or 3 rounds (1 or 2 with quick reload), which is quite fast compared to realistic reload times. DM will occasionally roll if someone is unpractised that they drop something or fumble and take longer. The upside is they do MUCH more damage than a crossbow. My more expensive rifle with dragonbone engravings and what not is more akin to a hunting shotgun in the manner it's reloaded. clicking it open and inserting a cartridge, then clicking it shut. However even with quick reload this is a standard action.

combined with cragtop archer, deepwood sniper and other various goodies this results in a sniper with a 2 mile range, a scope and a dead target vis called shot to the head every other round. I've shot a couple unaware wizards who were just completely unprepared for such an attack. I had a wizard with contigent spell teleport who evaded me once. I ready attacks to shoot wizards who cast in combats, as whilst casting a blast spell their protective magics are usually not sufficient to block a bullet. Even if they have windwall up there are ways around it. Have special ammunition, or make special ammunition. We rule that breaking runes or glyphs triggers them, so I have my ammunition enchanted with explosive runes or paralyzing glyphs, if they have windwall pick an AoE one and shoot the square next to them. Penetration rounds that act attack in a line, like a line breath weapon.

We also rule that armour rating on heavy armour = damage reduction on flintlocks and muskets, unless under 1 range increment away.

All in all, it's doable, I just recommend throwing together your favourite house rules and remembering, if guns exist enemies have them too.

[ksbsnowowl]

For arcing, its not so complicated. Quickplay rules for it can be:
-With arced arrows, ignore non-adjacent cover, but not concealment(which, improved precise shot deals with anyway). This includes total cover
-You can arc after the first range increment.
-You need vertical clearance equal to half the range of the shot. Yes, the arc is supposed to get steeper as you get closer to the target, but this is covered by the first range increment limitation, and its an acceptable break from reality thats easy to gauge. Effectively it means you need to be outdoors or in some massive dwarven hall or something.

Amazing.  I like these.

For single shot, rather than flurry missile weapons, you need Aim rules to translate actions into damage increase(e.g. a feat to double damage on your next shot if you take a move action to aim, with an extension to make it triple at high BAB) and Power Shot rules to translate accuracy into damage. Class support wise...can't be helped.

These are sort of along the same concept, and I post then here merely for comparison's sake:

Dead Aim

Prerequisite: Wisdom 13, Far Shot.

Benefit: Before making a ranged attack, the character may take a full-round action to line up your shot. This grants the character a +2 circumstance bonus on his or her next attack roll. Once the character begins aiming, he or she can't move, even to take a 5-foot step, until after the character makes his or her next attack, or the benefit of the feat is lost. Likewise, if the character's concentration is disrupted or the character is attacked before his or her next action, the character loses the benefit of aiming.

Double Tap

Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Point Blank Shot.

Benefit: When using a semiautomatic firearm with at least two bullets loaded, the character may fire two bullets as a single attack against a single target. The character receives a -2 penalty on this attack, but deals +1 die of damage with a successful hit. Using this feat fires two bullets and can only be done if the weapon has two bullets in it.

A feat that grants a bonus to hit by spending time aiming, and a feat that grants more damage dice by sacrificing to-hit.  Coincidentally, the bonus and penalty off-set each-other.  The length of time spent aiming could be argued, and we'd be talking a single bullet rather than two, but just taking this as it is, I could see making this one feat that grants an extra dice of damage with a single bullet in exchange for aiming as a full-round action.

For power shot, just look to Peerless Archer.  Though a power attack for guns doesn't make much sense (you deal more damage with a gun by aiming better; there is no method of "swinging wildly" or "pulling extra hard on the bowstring" to impart more force while sacrificing accuracy).

[veekie]

For power shot, just look to Peerless Archer.  Though a power attack for guns doesn't make much sense (you deal more damage with a gun by aiming better; there is no method of "swinging wildly" or "pulling extra hard on the bowstring" to impart more force while sacrificing accuracy).

The problem is the terminology.

You translate accuracy into damage in one simple way. You aim for high value, more difficult shots. Where a normal attack shoots for center of mass, a damage shifted attack targets the shot for the heart, gut, throat or head, where armor and movement is more likely to make the attack fail entirely.

[RedWarlock]

The problem is the terminology.

You translate accuracy into damage in one simple way. You aim for high value, more difficult shots. Where a normal attack shoots for center of mass, a damage shifted attack targets the shot for the heart, gut, throat or head, where armor and movement is more likely to make the attack fail entirely.

So, basically, called shots. Trading accuracy for damage. (Or sneak attacks?)

I'm inclined to say that unless you're unoccupied by anyone withing 30ft, you are flatfooted to anyone outside of that range. (and if not, you can focus in only one direction.) that combined with pulling the range limit on SA seems to do the trick.

[veekie]

Don't forget ranged combat already has an inherent advantage in access to on-demand full attacks, easier stealth(a hidden sniper can fire and recover at a good distance effectively indefinitely, and just let the range penalties do it) and distance of engagement. Its not very good at straight damage without additional effort, but making every shot a snipe shot at range is going to be pretty ridiculous if the target is already aware and in a combat state.

Simply lifting the sneak attack distance cap is going to do a hell of a lot.

[Prime32]

I don't get why the 30ft range is there. Why not limit sneak attacks to the first range increment? Or if you want sniping, reduce sneak attack by -1d6 for each range increment.

[dman11235]

That might just be a new houserule in my games...

Although, no that I think about it, part of it is the closeness with regards to how well you can see the target.  Point Blank Shot embodies this.  There's also the balance aspect, since a throwing weapon has an increment of 10', and a bow has over 100'.  So there would need to be ways to balance that, or treat thrown weapons differently?

[X-Codes]

If vision is a factor then there should be a Spot check as part of the attack.

[dman11235]

That might get a little too complicated.  If it was just one mechanic that was spot check=more damage, that would be fine, but a spot check for EVERY precision damage?  I was mostly just saying that there was a reason it was 30', rather than 1 range increment.

[veekie]

Or just tie the sneak attack increment to perception ranks. More controllable, and easier to judge at a glance as a static number instead of dancing up and down.

[ksbsnowowl]

For power shot, just look to Peerless Archer.  Though a power attack for guns doesn't make much sense (you deal more damage with a gun by aiming better; there is no method of "swinging wildly" or "pulling extra hard on the bowstring" to impart more force while sacrificing accuracy).

The problem is the terminology.

You translate accuracy into damage in one simple way. You aim for high value, more difficult shots. Where a normal attack shoots for center of mass, a damage shifted attack targets the shot for the heart, gut, throat or head, where armor and movement is more likely to make the attack fail entirely.

Touche.  I agree, at this point we're basically talking about called shots.  It works.

[dman11235]

Or just tie the sneak attack increment to perception ranks. More controllable, and easier to judge at a glance as a static number instead of dancing up and down.

That would work I think.  But it does still force ALL precision damage based classes to use spot.  30' is a reasonable distance IMO.  How about a feat that ties it in with spot, so that by taking the feat you can use close-range precision damage at 30'+5'/2 ranks in spot (requiring 4 ranks in spot) or something?

[veekie]

Well, after you go past the first bow increment, the distance is largely irrelevant as far as sneak attacking is concerned. It becomes far enough to snipe, and increasing further than that is mostly academic(since encounters don't generally happen at 300ft). If it costs a feat you can be more generous about the ratio.

[dman11235]

Well, I was thinking that taking it at level 1 as presented would be 40' (I started out at 40'+5/2 ranks, actually), and most often encounters don't go further than 50 in my experience.  Not really worried about the numbers, just a concept feat.  As far as sniping goes, I think that should be its own thing, taking from the sniper scout variant.  Have things dedicated to it.  Otherwise, SAing at range will (should) be impossible.  Part of the balancing for it.

[brainpiercing]

Well, after you go past the first bow increment, the distance is largely irrelevant as far as sneak attacking is concerned. It becomes far enough to snipe, and increasing further than that is mostly academic(since encounters don't generally happen at 300ft). If it costs a feat you can be more generous about the ratio.

If ranged weapons and especially ranged damage boosts were better then encounters should move to greater ranges.

Anyway I disagree that sneak attacking should depend on the range increment of the weapon - it's the ability to hit a precise spot that counts. But letting people roll for that every time is tedious. I think the sneak attack distance should depend on the size of the target. For medium sneak distance is 6xmelee reach. That gets pretty far for humongous creatures, but it stands to reason that big critters have big hurty bits.

[dman11235]

That's interesting.  That might work actually.  It gets a little wonking with odd-reach creatures though, so specify that it's by creature size, not by reach.  And what about fine sized creatures, or diminuative?  Fine has a reach of 0', so would they not be able to be SAed?

[veekie]

Well, depends on the factors. For example, if you were to use Spot as a basis for determining sneak attack range, then you could just calculate the distance and size penalties you have before Spot penalties drive your modifier below 0.

[brainpiercing]

That's interesting.  That might work actually.  It gets a little wonking with odd-reach creatures though, so specify that it's by creature size, not by reach.  And what about fine sized creatures, or diminuative?  Fine has a reach of 0', so would they not be able to be SAed?

Well, I was thinking standard reach for the Size/tall category: i.e. 5 ,10, 15, 20, 30 ft respectively.

For creatures with a melee reach of 0 (tiny and smaller) it stands to reason they would be hard to sneak. I'm not sure, this is a pretty big change for rogue-likes, I wouldn't want to nerf them... we could also just say 30ft or 6x natural reach for a target of their size category, whichever is larger. If that gets too large (180ft for colossal), then maybe just 5x reach or so. But then a colossal critter with a reach weapon has 60ft melee reach. You really don't want to have to get close to that. Might as well melee it, after all.