Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?

[SorO_Lost]

So what you're saying is if I cast Time Stop on my self all my armor, clothing, packs, sacks, and weapons remain frozen in time as they are excluded from the spell and since they are in fact worn by a creature I cannot interact with them at all and remain immobile?

Pelor help me if I use a spell to light my self on fire, I'd burn my clothing away. 

[Kethrian]

And are you saying that I couldn't target your sword or spell component pouch with Sound Lance?  I guess that means that sundering only works after you've killed the creature holding the item you want to break, because it's a part of him.   

[veekie]

Come on guys, the thread is about trying to create a third option that is specifically good against casters and vulnerable to mundanes(however that works), tone down on the nitpicking and sarcasm wars.

[SorO_Lost]

And are you saying that I couldn't target your sword or spell component pouch with Sound Lance?  I guess that means that sundering only works after you've killed the creature holding the item you want to break, because it's a part of him.   

Sunder? Theres rules for that, just not rules on self buffs excluding your items.

Come on guys, the thread is about trying to create a third option that is specifically good against casters and vulnerable to mundanes(however that works), tone down on the nitpicking and sarcasm wars.

But I wanted to burn my clothing off, something about being warm for the rest of my life and it's fracking cold outside.

How about this?
Addition to Foresight sucks: People spend hours arguing about it's interaction with Mind Blank.
 
If you're not laughing now, don't worry. I am.

***

Where were we at before things went downhill? Cloistered Cleric, immune to ranged attacks, target based spells, crowd control, ran around in an anti-magic field using summons but also one armed, naked, and possibly 1~2 Con?

[darqueseid]

I think I have to agree with Xcodes mostly, mind blank and foresight don't interact. 

-Mindblank prevents certain (defined) divinations from affecting you, period.   
-Foresight doesn't give you any information on you at all, nor does it target any creatures around you, it gives you information on events happening around you.
-Foresight doesn't suck.  I'm not sure shapechange is viable to use all the time like you want it, so foresight is your other option(there are just some times that you can't be a giant turtle... at the kings ball or some such). 
-With persisting abilities, their differences don't really matter, just persist both of them, who cares.

Where I disagree is that a properly built AMF rogue assassin could take out a caster...  a caster isn't usually prepared ALL the time.

I have to concede the point that many have made though about divinations, they really mess up a rogue.  Unless he figures out a way to get immune to divinations, your right he's in trouble.

The argument that a cleric is the best option seems flawed from the get go.  Sure a cleric could take out a caster, but its a top tier class for a reason.  Since it can pretty much do anything, you'd be hard pressed to find a build that has the slightest problem with any melee class. 

I think the most likely thing that could satisfy the OP is a sorcerer focused only on dispel/spell battling

a Sorcerer build for ~ 10 levels + initiate of the seven fold veil 7, + at least one lvl archmage with (mastery of counterspelling)

assuming the sorcerer's spell selection is ONLY meant to take out casters then the melee should make short work of them.  they would only have divinations/dispels/fort or reflex targeting save or dies etc.  melees should laugh at the save or dies, and the sorcerer wouldn't have the right spells to deal with melee.

3 things though:
#1 vs such a build the melee may have trouble with the IOTSV part.  but even the veils aren't insurmountable, there are items that will get them past... and so would AMF. 
#2 the sorcerer would have to have teleport, its got to, to deal with a high level caster.  the melee has to shut that down if it wants any chance. 
#3 the sorcerer will have dispel, and chain dispel, which could shut off melee's items.  they'd need to be prepared to counter that with a ring of counterspells or such.




 

[spacemonkey555]

Where I disagree is that a properly built AMF rogue assassin could take out a caster...  a caster isn't usually prepared ALL the time.

I have to concede the point that many have made though about divinations, they really mess up a rogue.  Unless he figures out a way to get immune to divinations, your right he's in trouble.

The problem with self defense divinations is that there isn't an easy way to prevent a wizard from knowing he will be attacked and subjected to antimagic early tuesday afternoon followed by fatal melee attacks. He can mostly prepare based on what's going to happen to him, divination against the rogue isn't necessary. That's assuming shapechanging into an elemental weird for unlimited contact other plane as a free action, which is an over the top level of optimization for most campaigns probably, but it's raw.

Are there any spells, effects, or items that prevent the result of one's actions from being divined? If nothing else, a god can block COP for you, if you have one handy. That would be another nod for clerics being the best anti-casters, I guess.

[SorO_Lost]

That's assuming shapechanging into an elemental weird for unlimited contact other plane as a free action, which is an over the top level of optimization for most campaigns probably, but it's raw.

What is also RAW is CoP's one question per Standard Action. A spell's effect isn't it's final outcome, but everything contained within it's description.

Are there any spells, effects, or items that prevent the result of one's actions from being divined? If nothing else, a god can block COP for you, if you have one handy. That would be another nod for clerics being the best anti-casters, I guess.

Any faithful should work, especially if it's a rival deity. Like if McWizard has forsaken them all anyone would work but if they have been contacting Vecna you could try contacting Boccob. All you're really asking for is for mortals to duke it out, which pretty much every single religion agrees on to begin with so it should be pretty trivial.

***

The comments on Sorcerer were excellent. A Cleric could re-prepare to deal with a sneaky Rogue but it would take a Sorcerer a week to even change one spell. So keeping with the divine aspect, Favored Soul?

[Vasja]

That's assuming shapechanging into an elemental weird for unlimited contact other plane as a free action, which is an over the top level of optimization for most campaigns probably, but it's raw.

What is also RAW is CoP's one question per Standard Action. A spell's effect isn't it's final outcome, but everything contained within it's description.

I think he means the activation as a free action. Asking 100 questions in the time it takes to just cast CoP normally is pretty sweet.

[spacemonkey555]

Ya, beats 10 minutes and wasted spell slots.. and it's not a standard action per question, its a standard action to concentrate 

[SorO_Lost]

I think he means the activation as a free action. Asking 100 questions in the time it takes to just cast CoP normally is pretty sweet.

His next post suggests both yes and no.

And the weird are amazing. Like almost head desk through my table amazing a few posts ago.

Ya, beats 10 minutes and wasted spell slots.. and it's not a standard action per question, its a standard action to concentrate 

You cannot ask a question unless you are concentration on the spell.

You must concentrate on maintaining the spell (a standard action) in order to ask questions at the rate of one per round. A question is answered by the power during the same round. For every two caster levels, you may ask one question.

There are items that can handle the concentration for you, but it's still done at the rate of once per round.

[spacemonkey555]

I was just nitpicking your nitpick. Never been in such a rush I couldn't spare a standard action on free divinations.

[SorO_Lost]

I was just nitpicking your nitpick. Never been in such a rush I couldn't spare a standard action on free divinations.

Oh it's fine. Those monsters are pretty damn insane, it's just their not SO insane they are like this.

[darqueseid]

I think a favored soul would be tougher but not impossible. 
to build one that could take out a caster, You would need to somehow get access to the wizard spell-battle spells in the spell compendium and the counter-caster staples.  if you could surmount that task it'd be all about spell selection.  I think the divine side gets most of the tools needed at high level to shut down a caster so it could be done.

the immediate problems with this build vs melee that I see;
#1 he'd have heal, it'd be necessary vs a caster to remove status effects.  thats a serious problem for any melee- you gotta take him out in one shot, and a favored soul can also wear heavy armors.
#2 he can "naturally" fly after 17th level.  thats a big problem for non-flying melee.  you can't AMF or dispel real wings.
#3 They are decent combatants in thier own right, I think a rogue would have a tough time with a FS in a straight up fight...

[Jackinthegreen]

I think a favored soul would be tougher but not impossible. 
to build one that could take out a caster, You would need to somehow get access to the wizard spell-battle spells in the spell compendium and the counter-caster staples.  if you could surmount that task it'd be all about spell selection.  I think the divine side gets most of the tools needed at high level to shut down a caster so it could be done.

the immediate problems with this build vs melee that I see;
#1 he'd have heal, it'd be necessary vs a caster to remove status effects.  thats a serious problem for any melee- you gotta take him out in one shot, and a favored soul can also wear heavy armors.
#2 he can "naturally" fly after 17th level.  thats a big problem for non-flying melee.  you can't AMF or dispel real wings.
#3 They are decent combatants in thier own right, I think a rogue would have a tough time with a FS in a straight up fight...

Few FSs would take 17 straight levels of it, in lieu of PrCs, but it's possible.  It's also possible to be Dragonborn or Raptoran for their wings, and I bet there are a few other +0 LA races with mundane flight.

It'd be really nice if FSs could get a version of Divine Counterspell, but available as an immediate action.  I'm pretty sure there's a way to do that, but I can't think of it right now.

[SorO_Lost]

the immediate problems with this build vs melee that I see;
#1 he'd have heal, it'd be necessary vs a caster to remove status effects.  thats a serious problem for any melee- you gotta take him out in one shot, and a favored soul can also wear heavy armors.
#2 he can "naturally" fly after 17th level.  thats a big problem for non-flying melee.  you can't AMF or dispel real wings.
#3 They are decent combatants in thier own right, I think a rogue would have a tough time with a FS in a straight up fight...

1. The FvS is just as weak to Stunning, Paralyze, Daze, or Energy Drain as a mundane. Immunity to those effects mostly stem from items.
2. It's 17th level, everyone can fly. Willingly evil characters have had natural flight since they could to spend 10k on it. Good creatures could look towards Dragonborn which by that level provides full flight as well. Likewise the wings are not obtained at all if the FvS PrCs out.
3. But less so than if the Rogue were fighting a Cleric, Wizard, Druid, or Sorcerer.

[darqueseid]

the immediate problems with this build vs melee that I see;
#1 he'd have heal, it'd be necessary vs a caster to remove status effects.  thats a serious problem for any melee- you gotta take him out in one shot, and a favored soul can also wear heavy armors.
#2 he can "naturally" fly after 17th level.  thats a big problem for non-flying melee.  you can't AMF or dispel real wings.
#3 They are decent combatants in thier own right, I think a rogue would have a tough time with a FS in a straight up fight...

1. The FvS is just as weak to Stunning, Paralyze, Daze, or Energy Drain as a mundane. Immunity to those effects mostly stem from items.
2. It's 17th level, everyone can fly. Willingly evil characters have had natural flight since they could to spend 10k on it. Good creatures could look towards Dragonborn which by that level provides full flight as well. Likewise the wings are not obtained at all if the FvS PrCs out.
3. But less so than if the Rogue were fighting a Cleric, Wizard, Druid, or Sorcerer.

with #1 I think the FS has access to some spells that make him immune to many of those status effects, at least level drain with death ward, and paralysis with freedom of movement.  Both spells he'd have to take to fight a caster, too many save or dies. 
#2 if flying is irrelevant then the fact that a caster can fly is irrelevant.  But thats not the case, flying has been noted earlier as a particular strength of the caster.  That is, the caster can stay away indefinately from the melee.
(Tangent: is a dragonborn rogue with wings and AMF a viable caster killer then?:-))
#3, a FS has better armor and BAB than a sorc or wiz, the same as a cleric, and also has access to the combat buffing spells. (maybe he doesn't have them but he has access so a scroll works.)

The FS vs melee combat I would see as something like the melee charging in, and dealing a good bit of damage, but not killing the FS and then the FS 5 foot stepping and casting heal(if needed)&maybe a quick buff and then going into the fight.  It would be a tough fight vs a fighter, but a rogue would be hard pressed to get the kill after the initial crits (its possible the rogue could take out the FS but would need to get lucky on his SA damage)

The real problem with the FS is the caster battle.  There are some serious components missing from a FS build.  I'm not sold that it can get the spell-stopping power that a sufficiently built sorcerer can. 
Mastery of counterspelling is really good for a caster battle.  It sux in real world practice IMHO, but vs casters its top-notch.  Combined with the fact that the IOTSV basically allows you to negate a caster as an immediate action... and spell battle spells...  its just gotta be an arcane build.

Maybe a FS/sorcerer gish?  I don't think it'd have the top-end power to take on a caster.  no 9th level spells would seriously cramp the caster v caster battle.

[SorO_Lost]

The FS vs melee combat I would see as something like the melee charging in, and dealing a good bit of damage,

Whoa hold up there.

I've kind of wondered about those comments on armor and figured asking why would you cast FoM when you can just wear it was a little unneeded. But Charging and too little damage NEVER go in the same sentence.

Take Risky for example, he has +17 Initiative and +12/+7 touch melee (4d10+140) while Smiting the wicked at level 6. And I once posted a Barbarian Frenzy Berserker, my quote was summarize by someone to just saying "over 6,000 damage" over and over again. Even my posted VoP Monk build broke 300 and was one hell of a tripper. Point being, is if you're not killing people by charging, you're Entangled or dead.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Elder Evils has a bunch of bad guys with the (ex) ability Immune to Divine Magic.
(or something like that) If this was available rather early on ...

3.0e Rakshasa and Flesh Golems are yummy and sucky at the same time.

2e Modrons were blanket Immune to psionics ; boo bad modrons 

Swarms are immune to a bunch of weird specifics from a Caster's bag of tricks.

[/list?]

**

Rocks , Paper , Scissors ... doesn't hold up so well with Full Casters around.
4e "tries" to do this, in a way.