Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Most everyone is aware of the Magic vs Mundane problem that boils down to the mundanes losing, in a big way, repeatedly, in the alley.

Now that being said, I'm not looking for 50 pages of flame war about whether mundanes can hold their own against casters. 

I'm looking for a character that consistently hoses casters, yet has serious trouble with the mundane(melee, ranged, sneaky etc...) guys.

All books, editions, third party, ad-hoc-homebrew available(if needed).  Self-nerfing and liberal TO, in order to reach this goal, are allowed.

Here's my first crack at it:
Cloistered DMM cleric that is focused highly on anti-magic and counterspelling.  His custom domain(not_real) allows him to counter a spell of the same level spontaneously instead of the cure/inflict line, and turn undead is now rebuke spell(and possibly rebuke spell-like/su-ability later?).  This allows some kind of DC to decide whether he now makes all decisions regarding the rebuked spell(including dismissing and/or controlling minions).
He also never prepares any spell that is a combat buff, bfc, or healing/direct damage, or grants a minion that is not in the anti-magic spirit of the character.

Yes, it includes a lot of homebrew, but it serves as an example of concept.
Bonus points if you can solve this without homebrew.

Basically, I want a character that kills tippy wizard(angel summoner) and gets killed by fighter20(bmx bandit) most every time.  A kind of rock paper scissors if you will.

Also, is this topic worth pursuing?  If such a character was made, would it matter?

[LordBlades]

I don't really think you'll get anything spectacular. Barring very specific builds, a caster can emulate 99% of what a mundane can do. So if your guy has some weakness that a mundane can exploit, then a caster can probably exploit it even better.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Right, but the point is that if a character existed, he would be slapping the wizard in the face with his own black tentacles and also be squishy; and, his tricks wouldn't work on the lowly monk.

I guess you could look at it like we need X and Y and Z to beat tippy, arty, StP Erudite and CoDzilla, now lets strip whatever is not specifically needed and make it a base class that (hopefully sucks against mundanes).

more of a thought exercise than anything, I think if this concept were embraced, less melee peeps would get their feelings hurt.  Instead of Divine Power being strictly better than fighterX, it is now better if the third wheel guy is not around. There would be some risk involved with casting that particular spell, b/c THIRD WHEEL could either waste the spell slot or move the effect to himself/another party member (or something equally devastating).

[veekie]

Except...it doesn't solve anything, casters strengths lie specifically in being able to apply their spells to everything. Its not Rock Paper Scissors, its Rock vs Programmable Nanomachines.

[Prime32]

An attempt I made at this

[LordBlades]

Right, but the point is that if a character existed, he would be slapping the wizard in the face with his own black tentacles and also be squishy; and, his tricks wouldn't work on the lowly monk.

I guess you could look at it like we need X and Y and Z to beat tippy, arty, StP Erudite and CoDzilla, now lets strip whatever is not specifically needed and make it a base class that (hopefully sucks against mundanes).

more of a thought exercise than anything, I think if this concept were embraced, less melee peeps would get their feelings hurt.  Instead of Divine Power being strictly better than fighterX, it is now better if the third wheel guy is not around. There would be some risk involved with casting that particular spell, b/c THIRD WHEEL could either waste the spell slot or move the effect to himself/another party member (or something equally devastating).

If these thing would be weak vs the typical tricks a mundane has, then what's stopping a caster from beating him with mundane tricks(which he probably can do better than mundanes, either himself or via proxy: Planar Binding/Ally, Animal Companion etc.)? that's the point I was trying to make.

[JaronK]

How about a UA variant Abjurer who takes levels in Master Specialist so all his abilities are focused around counterspelling?  Maybe go into another PrC that also bans even more schools?  That's about the best I could pull off... but even he could just change spell selection and be scary to anyone.

JaronK

[X-Codes]

The problem with Dispel Magic is that it loses to CL shenanigans.  You, yourself, can buff your Dispel checks, sure, and can likely manage twice your caster level in total modifiers on a level-appropriate dispel magic.

That said, Circle Magic itself gets you to CL 40, so... yeah.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Ardent 1 or 2 , or Erudite 1, into any of the bad (as in not good) Psi PrCs.
Use Magic Mantle in a semi-TO-ish way, to yank over Abjurations and Anti-magic spells.
Throw in powerpoint recharge to keep these specific spells going all the time.

Otherwise unused flavor + 8 or 9 levels whatever other direction you wanna go.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

@Prime32: interesting, I especially like control spell

If these thing would be weak vs the typical tricks a mundane has, then what's stopping a caster from beating him with mundane tricks(which he probably can do better than mundanes, either himself or via proxy: Planar Binding/Ally, Animal Companion etc.)? that's the point I was trying to make.

point taken, that's tricky maybe we can sever the bond between the animal companion and the druid(though I would argue that the abilities associated with the AC are EX(link, share spells etc...) so they should be left alone), and/or dismiss the bound creature to it's home plane and it's task is considered to be complete, how it's free to seek revenge on the wizard if it chooses to.

Except...it doesn't solve anything, casters strengths lie specifically in being able to apply their spells to everything. Its not Rock Paper Scissors, its Rock vs Programmable Nanomachines.

that's fine, I'm looking for a quantum weapon that eliminates some the threat of the grey goo, yet can be broken with a rock

The problem with Dispel Magic is that it loses to CL shenanigans.  You, yourself, can buff your Dispel checks, sure, and can likely manage twice your caster level in total modifiers on a level-appropriate dispel magic.

That said, Circle Magic itself gets you to CL 40, so... yeah.

so dispelling would be more effective if the spell level determined the DC instead of CL... this is a good start

[X-Codes]

That would also be a nice, subtle nerf to characters that stack metamagic, since the effective spell level stays the same.

[JaronK]

The problem with Dispel Magic is that it loses to CL shenanigans.  You, yourself, can buff your Dispel checks, sure, and can likely manage twice your caster level in total modifiers on a level-appropriate dispel magic.

That said, Circle Magic itself gets you to CL 40, so... yeah.

Note that I picked those classes because they get massive bonuses to dispel checks.  Should get the job done, most of the time.

JaronK

[Shining Phoenix]

I don't think that this is worth pursuing because:

• All the other enemies are still going to kick the asses of existing martial characters exceptionally disproportionally.
• It still doesn't deal with the fact that mundanes can't do the noncombat things that need doing.
  
• Mundane characters are not conceptually capable of doing the sort of things that are high level.
• This is a fantasy game; there's no reason for mundane characters to be a supported archetype.

Instead, the important thing is to bring the non-caster concepts that are interesting and fantasy enough to be worth supporting up to the point where they can actually do things that are interesting and worth doing in the game, both in and out of combat.

[X-Codes]

The problem with Dispel Magic is that it loses to CL shenanigans.  You, yourself, can buff your Dispel checks, sure, and can likely manage twice your caster level in total modifiers on a level-appropriate dispel magic.

That said, Circle Magic itself gets you to CL 40, so... yeah.

Note that I picked those classes because they get massive bonuses to dispel checks.  Should get the job done, most of the time.

JaronK

No, it won't.  Like I mentioned, it's difficult to get an overall bonus of about twice your caster level while using a level-relevant dispel magic.  Obviously some levels are different (you could probably get close to a +20 at level 6 if you really went all out), but ultimately it's hard just to contend with Circle Magic, nevermind trying to beat Circle Magic + Consumptive Field.

[darqueseid]

if you are warforged and select the 3.5 feat "magic immunity" for each school (assuming no prerequisites for 3.5)
1 magic immunity
3 ""
6 ""
9 ""
12 ""
15 ""
you start out with construct immunities and by 15th level, your immune to all spells,  Items like spellstriking or spellblade weapons can go a long way towards your effectiveness in battle vs casters.

Rogue may be your best choice for a rock/paper/scissors fight. 

if you can get a way to produce an antimagic field- perhaps with some sort of beholderkin race you could be golden.   

AMF + sneak attack damage = dead wizard.

[darqueseid]

yeah the warforged immune is probably not best. I think rogue is probably the wizard killer.

Rogue 11/invisible blade 5/nightsong enforcer 4 with 2weapon fighting
= 16 base attack bonus= 4 attacks per round, with +10d6 sneak attack damage per attack
(can feint as a free action) getting at least one sneak attack per round against a caster class that traditionally doesnt have the hitpoints to handle it.

add in the craven, weapon finesse and 2weapon fighting feats, improved initiative, and you can do some seriously impressive damage.  You need to win initiative, but with your high dex that shouldn't be a problem, but you can get improved initiative to ensure you get it.  (flatfooted opponents on round one means you pwn the first creature you attack)
max bluff and max UMD (UMD check of 27 is needed for AMF)
Keep scrolls of widened antimagic field handy, cast it before combat with a high use magic device check-(lasts ~2 hours off a scroll)  you'll have plenty of money for them because you only use mundane weapons ever. 

Hide and wait till the wiz gets within 20' then suprise

Bottom line, you would deal 10d6+20+weapon damage in the suprise round
and if you win initiative your dealing another 10d6+20+weap X4 attacks on a caster class (with traditionally low AC without magical protection),  and they can't do any celerity time stop tricks in that first round because they've been debuffed by Antimagic field.
With around 120 hps at 20th level ~3-4 attacks will = Dead wizard
Score one point for the Rogue. 

The only thing this wouldn't address is the wizard's "clone" spell which would allow them to pop back alive, albeit a level lower, and probably pissed off. 

Unfortunately, even with the drop, this rogue will probably get eaten alive by a sufficiently optimized melee build.  Especially one that is immune to criticals such as a warforged fighter...

[Halinn]

When part of the goal post is being beaten by mundanes, what level of optimization is assumed for them? If you just don't include a defense against dragoons or other strong charger builds, that should constitute a partial goal fulfillment. From that, you just have to negate every spell cast by the full caster. Perhaps disjunction at-will, with a special limited targeting against opponents with spells. And aforementioned warforged magic immunities. And a way to deal with summons.

[LordBlades]

point taken, that's tricky maybe we can sever the bond between the animal companion and the druid(though I would argue that the abilities associated with the AC are EX(link, share spells etc...) so they should be left alone), and/or dismiss the bound creature to it's home plane and it's task is considered to be complete, how it's free to seek revenge on the wizard if it chooses to.

These are some good good ideas, but in the end, if you're aiming for a low enough 'gets beaten by mundanes' floor (such as 'get's beating by not very optimized monk) it's quite likely a more beefy caster (cleric or gish) would bash your face in without any spells whatsoever.

[SorO_Lost]

Friendly Fire (EoE): Reflect ranged & ranged touch attacks back to the original source (eg can't be shot by rays).
Rod of Absorption (Core): Absorb any spell designating you are the target (eg can't be targeted).
Ring of Freedom of Movement (Core): Immune to 99% of crowd control tactics (eg suck it god).

At this point, Fireball is one of the most useful spells to use against you but let's keep going.

A. +5 Robe of the Vagabond of Resistance (CC/MiC) + +6 Empyreal Bracers of Armor (BoED) + +5 Parry Spellstrike Gauntlet (SRD/MiC) + Ioun Stone[Pale Green Prism](Core) + Admiral's Bicorne (SW) + Ring of Evasion = +5 resistance, +1 luck, +6 sacred, +1 insight, +5 unnamed, +1 competence, and +2 moral to saves, or +21 total and Evasion to avoid those pesky area attacks.

B. Spell Resistance (Core, domain wizard with magic/protection can get it) + Daazzix's Vest (DMGII) = SR 17+CL. Minimum of 37 really but it can be so much more with some CL boosts.

C. Ritual of Shadow Walking (FR:LoD) + Martial Study(any iron heart) + Martial Study(iron heart surge) = Royally screws over tactics like Time Stop to multiple Walls of Force + Antimagic as you can IHS antimagic away and teleport interplanar style out of anything.

D. Chain Steal Summoning (CM), steal all summons the other caster brings forth, works like an uncapped dispel so see also the SR tip.

E. High Initiative + Belt of Battle (MiC), like immediate actions, swift actions can be done any time. The difference is swift can only be done on your turn. Assuming you win initiative, since a rival caster's Celerity's actions are done on your turn you can simply use a Belt of Battle to obtain a new full-round action after their casting of Celerity but before they take their actions. They cannot recast Celerity again and you're back where you started. Your turn at kicking their ass.

And there you go, lots of spell defenses but nothing preventing melee or notes of high AC so in a way weak against mundanes. Something it could readily fix but if the build isn't too powerful you can get away with saying it ran out of resources. Like not enough Persists to go around or something.

[LordBlades]

Friendly Fire (EoE): Reflect ranged & ranged touch attacks back to the original source (eg can't be shot by rays).
Rod of Absorption (Core): Absorb any spell designating you are the target (eg can't be targeted).
Ring of Freedom of Movement (Core): Immune to 99% of crowd control tactics (eg suck it god).

At this point, Fireball is one of the most useful spells to use against you but let's keep going.

A. +5 Robe of the Vagabond of Resistance (CC/MiC) + +6 Empyreal Bracers of Armor (BoED) + +5 Parry Spellstrike Gauntlet (SRD/MiC) + Ioun Stone[Pale Green Prism](Core) + Admiral's Bicorne (SW) + Ring of Evasion = +5 resistance, +1 luck, +6 sacred, +1 insight, +5 unnamed, +1 competence, and +2 moral to saves, or +21 total and Evasion to avoid those pesky area attacks.

B. Spell Resistance (Core, domain wizard with magic/protection can get it) + Daazzix's Vest (DMGII) = SR 17+CL. Minimum of 37 really but it can be so much more with some CL boosts.

C. Ritual of Shadow Walking (FR:LoD) + Martial Study(any iron heart) + Martial Study(iron heart surge) = Royally screws over tactics like Time Stop to multiple Walls of Force + Antimagic as you can IHS antimagic away and teleport interplanar style out of anything.

D. Chain Steal Summoning (CM), steal all summons the other caster brings forth, works like an uncapped dispel so see also the SR tip.

E. High Initiative + Belt of Battle (MiC), like immediate actions, swift actions can be done any time. The difference is swift can only be done on your turn. Assuming you win initiative, since a rival caster's Celerity's actions are done on your turn you can simply use a Belt of Battle to obtain a new full-round action after their casting of Celerity but before they take their actions. They cannot recast Celerity again and you're back where you started. Your turn at kicking their ass.

And there you go, lots of spell defenses but nothing preventing melee or notes of high AC so in a way weak against mundanes. Something it could readily fix but if the build isn't too powerful you can get away with saying it ran out of resources. Like not enough Persists to go around or something.

There are a few gaps in this guy's defenses, but overall he's pretty caster proof. However, if he has Freedom of Movement and teleportation he's not very weak against mundane at all. He can get out of anything as long as he doesn't get one-shotted.