Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?

[Vasja]

Back to that ritual for the moment (FR:Lords of Darkness), I didn't see any must be alive text, so you can go Necropoliton to ignore the Con damage, measly 1d4 HP loss to teleport around. Not has good as Shadow Hand, but certainly impressive for nonToBers. Anyone got text saying no on that?

Can't find anything that wouldn't allow it. I've seen it mentioned before as well, so I think it's good to go.

[darqueseid]

how about casting celerity?

Seriously, this. If you're talking about anything that's not a surprise round, you have to beat celerity. Which, if you're running around in an AMF, isn't very likely. If you're in the surprise round, you aren't going to be getting five attacks. You won't be killing the wizard with one sneak attack, which leads to withdraw -> celerity.

AMF cast on yourself hiding In a hallway the wizard needs to traverse, or in a building the wizard is entering..
Hide at 24+dex bonus ranks = surprise round.
Move to wiz, or charge getting an attack + sneak attack
2 weapon fighting rogue gets 4 attacks on a wizard with(now)no magic protections. all attacks get sneak attack DMg(+10d6) because the wiz is flat footed till his turn.
  Since he wins initiative in a non- magic environment more than a wiz due to his high dex he kills the wizard more than the wiz kills him satisfying the op.
(how does nerve skitter work in an AMF?)
(How does the wizard cast celerity while flat footed And in an AMF???)

[zugschef]

this is a pretty stupid combat scenario. seriously.

[darqueseid]

Hmm, good argument. 

The exact way an assassin rogue would operate is a stupid scenario, seems totally stupid alright.  Good counterpoint.

[Vasja]

AMF cast on yourself hiding In a hallway the wizard needs to traverse, or in a building the wizard is entering..
Hide at 24+dex bonus ranks = surprise round.
Move to wiz, or charge getting an attack + sneak attack
2 weapon fighting rogue gets 4 attacks on a wizard with(now)no magic protections. all attacks get sneak attack DMg(+10d6) because the wiz is flat footed till his turn.
  Since he wins initiative in a non- magic environment more than a wiz due to his high dex he kills the wizard more than the wiz kills him satisfying the op.
(how does nerve skitter work in an AMF?)
(How does the wizard cast celerity while flat footed And in an AMF???)

That's a good point. I guess the general idea then is not to be surprised. Contingency is basically a must at that high a level, and some catch-all wording should be able to let you handle it. Alternatively, using persistent foresight, or the relatively cheap amulet of enemy detection lets you handle this as well. Divinations of 'will I be attacked while going about my shopping today' should be able to tell you what to expect, and very cheaply as well.

[zugschef]

besides, tin foil hat: assassin => screwed.

[spacemonkey555]

Hmm, good argument. 

The exact way an assassin rogue would operate is a stupid scenario, seems totally stupid alright.  Good counterpoint.

Assassins have some profit in mind typically, and have a notion of the concept of risk vs reward.
Profit minded assassins go after level 20 melees who have the same wbl as level 20 casters. Same with assessing the risk vs reward.

A different motive, like revenge, still puts the rogue in the position of trying to kill someone who casts contact other plane religiously. You most likely wouldn't realize what was going on when you died if you overlooked something so elementary, while hunting someone with such a monstrous intellect.

[zugschef]

Assassins have some profit in mind typically, and have a notion of the concept of risk vs reward.
Profit minded assassins go after level 20 melees who have the same wbl as level 20 casters. Same with assessing the risk vs reward.

A different motive, like revenge, still puts the rogue in the position of trying to kill someone who casts contact other plane religiously. You most likely wouldn't realize what was going on when you died if you overlooked something so elementary, while hunting someone with such a monstrous intellect.

this.

[SorO_Lost]

All the buffs in the world didn't save Superman from the mentally handicapped Doomsday.

[X-Codes]

Ok, some points...

Wizards are immune to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attacks.  There are so many ways to get this immunity, and some of them even operate in an AMF just fine.

If the Wizard has Mindsight, then it doesn't matter what your Hide skill is, you're auto-spotted at 100'.  There's no way you're closing a 100' gap in an AMF.

If the Wizard has Foresight, then it doesn't matter what your Hide skill is, you're never going to surprise the Wizard.

If the Wizard has a Tinfoil Hat, then it doesn't matter that you're walking in an AMF, because you're going to be blocked from fighting the Wizard as soon as you get him in the AMF.

These things are very, very easy for Wizards to do.  Most of them aren't even all that hard for non-casters to do.

[littha]

If the Wizard has Mindsight, then it doesn't matter what your Hide skill is, you're auto-spotted at 100'.  There's no way you're closing a 100' gap in an AMF.

Depends on your Race, if you have a 50' base move speed you could. (Highest move speed of a LA 0 race I know of is 40' (Nezumi from OA) plus 10' from monk or barbarian would work)

[SorO_Lost]

Depends on your Race, if you have a 50' base move speed you could. (Highest move speed of a LA 0 race I know of is 40' (Nezumi from OA) plus 10' from monk or barbarian would work)

Horses have 50ft+ for land speed, have you considered riding one?

Also Foresight sucks.

[skydragonknight]

Factotum archer comes to mind. Being able to get extra actions to ready against spellcasting would make things harder. And Int to Initiative means some chance to win that.

Really, making a build that can take out a caster in a straight fight isn't nearly as hard as making one that can detect the caster before the caster detects it as well as get around divinations...it would pretty much call for another caster.

[X-Codes]

Also Foresight sucks.

Only because it completely demolishes any prospect you could ever have of "surprising" the Wizard.

Seriously, if high-level D&D is rocket tag, Foresight guarantees that the Wizard at least gets to roll Initiative to see if he gets to shoot his rocket first.  If said Wizard also has Celerity prepared, then he auto-wins any and all encounters against something without similar counter-measures.

[pelzak]

AMF only works on those totaly covered by it.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

So I would assume that caster with active persisted enlarge person is not affected by AMF.

Best regards,
Pelzak

[SorO_Lost]

Also Foresight sucks.

Only because it completely demolishes any prospect you could ever have of "surprising" the Wizard.

I didn't mean as in "oh boy this mundane hates it", but "every character in D&D can do better".

Cunning from Weapons of Legacy can be obtained by level 11 and it states you are never flat-footed. You know, the condition that prevents you from taking immediate actions. Only you get it five levels sooner as a 24/7 ability and not as a 17th level trait that requires you to blow a 9th level spell every three hours. I say it again, Foresight sucks.

Which leads to another point I suppose, even the TO Wizard is limited to the knowledge of it's player. This is ultimately you're deciding factor in the table top where as on the forums the TO Wizard is the result of a hivemind with an infinite amount of time to respond to tactics.

***

AMF only works on those totaly covered by it.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

So I would assume that caster with active persisted enlarge person is not affected by AMF.

AMF is not a ten foot wide field, but an 10ft each way from the caster emanation. It not only means the field is 20ft wide, but since the caster can pick the corner of his square in which the area is based on, it emits 10ft in one direction (see DMG 307).

Large isn't going to cut it.

[pelzak]

AMF is not a ten foot wide field, but an 10ft each way from the caster emanation. It not only means the field is 20ft wide, but since the caster can pick the corner of his square in which the area is based on, it emits 10ft in one direction (see DMG 307).

Large isn't going to cut it.

I see your point, agree. But only when you cast/activate it standing next to the caster.

Happy New Year!
Pelzak

[X-Codes]

Cunning from Weapons of Legacy can be obtained by level 11 and it states you are never flat-footed. You know, the condition that prevents you from taking immediate actions. Only you get it five levels sooner as a 24/7 ability and not as a 17th level trait that requires you to blow a 9th level spell every three hours. I say it again, Foresight sucks.

Weapons of Legacy is obscure and not always allowed, Foresight is core.  I'll grant you that splats give power creep, and therefore there's a better way to give yourself this particular immunity than Foresight, but the spell's mere existence guarantees that the caster will always have this immunity available, even if they don't build to get it at an earlier level.

An example of a similar situation is the Incantatrix PrC.  Whatever it is you want to do, the Incantatrix PrC is probably among the best classes available for that job.  That doesn't mean that every single other Arcane PrC sucks.

[SorO_Lost]

Leave the analogies to me, Cunning is my goto solution because it applies to everyone. It's an item and not a ten levels long in a PrC that only 20% of classes can even enter.

There are several other less effective tactics, each one may be a weaker option into it's self, but as a whole they are better.
Dire Turtle prevents Surprise/Flat-Footed by giving you a surprise surprise round.^MMII.
Contingency(X, if surprised or disabled or say "Stop!, hammer time") works^Core.
Being the first to detect them prevents surprise; Mindsight, polymorph-obtained blindsight, etc^Core.
Not being detected prevents being surprised; (Greater) Invisibility, Disguise Self, Alter Self, etc^Core.
Odd ball tactics like an Extraordinary Spell Aimed Flash Frost Antimagic Field which renders everyone else Flat-Footed if they lack 5 ranks in Balance as well as robs them of all spell buffs and magical items have just as much merit to them as well, especially if you're immune to ranged attacks^CAr/FB.

Now, how many of those eat a 9th level spell slot every three hours? In fact, even with most CL shenanigans (meaning cl40 or so) still won't cut it and you'll be burning multiple 9th level slots per day on this ability that won't even last long enough to take a nap. Yes there is a power creep in books, but don't dismiss practical uses of better spells picking up the slack.

[Vasja]

Mindsight might not work here - anti-magic field suppresses (su) abilities. Since Mindsight works in the range of the telepathy then it should probably be suppressed for the area of the AMF.

Otherwise, Disguise self is actually a really good idea. If you're a famous mage it probably makes sense to have an alternate persona, even for non-anti-assassination purposes. Just to traveling and gathering info, it's quite useful. Shit, even that gaudy bastard Elminster has one.