Ultimate Party Player: Artificer help

[Soft Insanity]

Are you playing in a game or just looking to poke holes in the game system?

Given that DMM is a way to pay for spell slot increases, your DnD group could say you have to pay the full price of the adjusted spell.  If they rule that the spell is a lower level, and the item can be created that way, then it would be hella cheap.

I'm playing in a game where a player is taking advantage of everything already mentioned.  I just wanted to see if it was legal.  Now that I know it is, it'll have to be addressed (and it's been a long time coming).

[LargePrime]

ok, but I am not saying it is legal.  I see no way for it to be.

You could argue that your DMM crap could qualify you to create a MM item, (but then you already have the MM feats to get the DMM versions, so that's Bullshit) but I do not see a way to argue you can get free MM enhancement in item creation.  Just because it is free when you cast has nothing to do with item creation.

[Cagemarrow]

I was basing my usage of DMM Persist on the wording that "the spell slot for the spell doesn't change". Its not a free investment by any means, at least for my build it requires a level and 3 feats to do it which is pretty hefty in an E6 campaign. It doesn't increase the level of items he can make.

I suppose I can see it working either way both open different cans of worms though, because if applying the metamagic and paying for it with Divine MM still increases the level of the spell then with Heighten it can be used to qualify for "Cast spells of level x" very early depending on how many Turn Attempts you have per day.

I'm not sure which would be more disruptive really, though if the second option is the correct method then I've got some interesting ideas based on Dread Necromancer/Cleric Theurges starting at level 3.

[LargePrime]

I was basing my usage of DMM Persist on the wording that "the spell slot for the spell doesn't change". Its not a free investment by any means, at least for my build it requires a level and 3 feats to do it which is pretty hefty in an E6 campaign. It doesn't increase the level of items he can make.

I don't understand.  How do you get from being able to CAST the spell, to making an item with a metamagic spell effect that is unpaid for?

I suppose I can see it working either way both open different cans of worms though, because if applying the metamagic and paying for it with Divine MM still increases the level of the spell then with Heighten it can be used to qualify for "Cast spells of level x" very early depending on how many Turn Attempts you have per day.

you are confused.  DMM works as DMM works.  Item creation works like Item creation works.  You are trying to use the rules for DMM in Item creation, which is not raw, and then saying that if it works differently in item creation then DMM is broken.  Which does not follow.

[Cagemarrow]

How is applying that against rules as written? The rules do allow for the creation of normal metamagics, see the various empowered scrolls in the treasures throughout the adventures. I'm still providing the required spell it just has extra energy included in it to make it last longer.

[LargePrime]

You want to have a technical rules discussion?

The Item creation rules are very specific on how MM are added to a spell effect.  You are trying to add DMM to an item, but DMM does not modify the spell effect, it modifies how the MM spell level adjustment cost is paid.  Item creation rules already have rules about how MM spell level adjustment cost is paid for.  And it does not include DMM in thoes rules.

Further, the spell source for a magic item does not matter.  You can use a SLA, scroll, or any other source.  The source has no effect on the items spell effect.  For example if it came from a scroll, it is not treated as a "scroll" when cast.  So I do not see how you are justifying the spell source coming from DMM having an effect on the spell effect in the item.

Did i miss something?

[Cagemarrow]

Please don't misinterpreted my questions as any sort of attack against you I'm just confused at your explanations and I don't remember anything within the rules stating that it wouldn't work the way I explained.

I thought that mm could be applied to items by supplying the mm spell and paying for the increase in spell level. For example a extended scroll of fist of stone would cost: caster level 1 x spell level (1 for the spell +1 for extend) 2 x 25 gp = 50 gp

Following the same logic a peristed scroll of fist of stone would cost: Cl 1 x spell level (1 for spell + 0 for dmmp and 7 turn attempts) 1 x 25 gp = 25 gp

The only difficulty I see with this lies with items that take longer than one day to make, you would have to provide the persisted spell every day you work on the item.If you know where it states that this isn't how it works I  really would like to know so I can read it for myself and make corrections to my character.

[LargePrime]

Following the same logic a peristed scroll of fist of stone would cost: Cl 1 x spell level (1 for spell + 0 for dmmp and 7 turn attempts) 1 x 25 gp = 25 gp

It is not the same logic.
The Calculation is (1 for spell + 6 for persist -6 for dmm persist and 7 turn attempts) to get a 1 level spell.
But there are no rules for using DMM in magical items.  And using your formula above is not creating a "persisted scroll of fist",  but a "DMM persisted scroll of fist".  There are no rules to cover this.

[spacemonkey555]

DMM isn't a metamagic feat, you can buy a persisted scroll, but not a DMM:persisted scroll. The item creation rules say the level of the spell in the item is actually changed by the addition of the metamagic, and DMM only affects the spell slot cost, not the actual spell level.

There's a hidden benefit there, if you're into edgy raw interpretations. Any metamagic enhanced item gets the benefit of being heightened for free.

[Cagemarrow]

I get what you're saying but would like to read over the wording of the rules you are basing your interpetation on.  I can't find anything that contradicts my explanation of it and I've read through the dmg,  rules compendium, and magic item compendium sections again. The only thing I can find is a statement on how Meta magic works in regard to affecting spell level. RC PG 136 says that in all ways the spell level remains the same as the spell, unless heighten is used. I dont take this to mean that the increase in spell level for normal mm should not be added to item creation costs. While dmm isn't a metamagic feat it modifies the feat it is bound to affecting the mm feats cost. Arcane thesis should work the same for 1 level mm adjustment feats. The adjustment to the spell slot level occurs before it goes into the item creation process afterall.

We've gone off of this threads purpose so I'm just going to be thankful that my dm has agreed with my interpretation for now. Pleased feel free to message me if you want to discuss this further.