Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs

[Halinn]

And why are we creating axioms, when we has da rules right there?

Because the rules do not cover all situations. Example: the dead condition does not say that you can't move.

So you are looking at creating a FAQ/Eratta/guideline to cover the spots WoTC did not bother to?

And do you mean for it to FIX things and bring balance, or to cover stupid obvious things like "when dead, you cannot move"?

I am simply stating that because some things are not made obvious by the rules, certain assumptions have to be made, such as perhaps the aforementioned axiom.

[sirpercival]

The problem with what you're trying to debate is that you're just asking questions without a frame of reference.  I'm trying to construct a logical argument that will prove it one way or the other, and have proof.

I haven't gotten to the wizard yet.  It's a couple steps down the line.

And you don't agree?  You think that simply having the potentiality of meeting a prerequisite counts as meeting the prerequisite?  What about a feat that requires a breath weapon, and a wizard who knows a spell to grant him one, but hasn't cast it?  You think he qualifies for the feat even though he does not actually have a breath weapon?

[sreservoir]

And why are we creating axioms, when we has da rules right there?

Because the rules do not cover all situations. Example: the dead condition does not say that you can't move.

not explicitly, but the dead condition does mean that you are at -10 hp if it matters, which implies that you are unconscious because your nonlethal damage is greater than your hit points (unless you somehow have negative nonlethal damage).

there are stupid interactions between this and that soulmeld which lets you act below -10 (once you die, you can take your actions again), but by default, dead indeed means that you can't move.

[KellKheraptis]

WotC differentiates between the capability to perform something, and the raw logic gate of having or not having an ability.  Case in point : "ability to cast arcane and divine spells" vs "able to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells."  Notice a difference?  Mind you, neither states a class feature, simply a raw capability to cast magicks of said level and source.  One asks only the capability, of any level, the other sets a standard, in this case 2nd level.  The PrC's in question here care not what meets this prerequisite, and in fact, a rogue just might meet the prerequisites for the former with a couple feats, and the latter with a couple more plus a magical location.  But back on topic...

So, does anyspell cast arcane spells, or divine spells?  If the former, any Cleric of Mystra may enter Dweomerkeeper without spending a feat on Magical Training, though Southern Magician still holds a special place for obvious reasons.  As for the latter PrC, it asks more than capability.  It requires a raw level of talent.

Hopefully this makes sense...I just got off work, and am rather frazzled.

[sirpercival]

Here's a piece of RAW that contradicts the "wizards who cast all their spells don't qualify for PrCs" argument, from the SRD.  The very first words of the "Spells" class feature are:

A wizard casts arcane spells...

Therefore a wizard has the ability to cast arcane spells no matter how many used or unused spell slots are left, just by virtue of being a wizard.


There are 3 questions that you have to answer to figure out if a cleric can qualify for Dweomerkeeper with Anyspell.

1) Does just having the spell on their spell list (from the Spell domain or from the IoM feat) qualify them?

2) Does preparing an arcane spell with Anyspell qualify them?

3) If the prepare an arcane spell and then cast it, do they qualify?

As to the first, if you agree with my Axiom 1 (and I think you should), then a cleric of mystra who doesn't use Anyspell to prepare an arcane spell doesn't qualify for Dweomerkeeper even if they COULD prepare it.  Having the potential to meet the requirement does not meet the requirement, and without using Anyspell they can't cast any arcane spells.

I think from the wording of Anyspell that we can agree that #2 does in fact qualify them, since the arcane spell is cast "as a wizard of your cleric level", meaning it's actually an arcane spell (and therefore, incidentally, suffers from ASF).

#3 is the tricky one.

[liquid150]

I agree with sirpercival on all counts, except that I don't believe #3 is tricky. It's pretty cut and dry. Once the spell is cast, the cleric has lost the ability to cast any arcane spells and then must cast Anyspell again.

Also, it is important to remember that as an arcane spell, the spell gained from Anyspell is exempt from use with Divine Metamagic. No persisting Wraithstrike with DMM. Spelldance or other abilities are different, but DMM does not work with it.

[LargePrime]

Here's a piece of RAW that contradicts the "wizards who cast all their spells don't qualify for PrCs" argument, from the SRD.  The very first words of the "Spells" class feature are:

A wizard casts arcane spells...

The PHB goes on to say

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.

Therefore a wizard has the ability to cast only a limited number of spells per day. 

This contradicts you assertion "the ability to cast arcane spells no matter how many used or unused spell slots are left".  Thus, it seems, "wizards who cast all their spells don't qualify for PrCs" stands.

[linklord231]

The XPH states

The psionic subtype applies to creatures that can use psionic powers or abilities or that have the ability to manifest powers. (In other words, a creature with the psionic subtype either has a power point reserve or has psi-like abilities.).

Does a manifester who has used all of his daily power points lose the [psionic] subtype?


The Dweomerkeeper requires "The ability to cast arcane and divine spells."  If we look up "ability" in the dictionary, we find:

a-bil-i-ty
n. pl. a·bil·i·ties
1. The quality of being able to do something, especially the physical, mental, financial, or legal power to accomplish something.
2. A natural or acquired skill or talent.
3. The quality of being suitable for or receptive to a specified treatment; capacity

Unfortunately, it seems like the people in this thread are operating under different definitions of the word "ability". 
Proponents of single-classed clerics as Dweomerkeepers seem to be operating under Definition 2 - Spellcasting is an acquired talent, and Anyspell gives them the talent to cast Arcane spells. 
Opponents believe Definition 1 fits the case best, and in the case of a cleric who has cast his Arcane spell for the day, this means that the cleric no longer has the 'ability' to cast an Arcane spell right this second and no longer qualifies for his PrC. 
He still has the talent to cast Arcane spells, because he has the talent to cast Anyspell.  He does not, currently, have "the quality of being able to" cast an Arcane spell, and so is disqualified from Dweomerkeeper. 
So you're both right, depending on which definition of "ability" you think the designers meant. 

[LargePrime]

Does a manifester who has used all of his daily power points lose the [psionic] subtype?

Can you show me how that is on topic?

a-bil-i-ty
n. pl. a·bil·i·ties

Wait, What?
Either definition reduces to mean "YOU CAN DO IT!".  Thus you qualify according to the rules.

The salient point to the topic is the "Distance" between any given moment, and how long until one CAN do whatever it takes to explicitly qualify for a PrC.  The Wizard example highlights that it is generally assumed that distance can be much further than Anyspell is assumed to be.

[linklord231]

Re: Psionics
A manifester out of power points no longer has the ability to manifest powers, according to you, and thus no longer qualifies for the [psionic] subtype.  As a side note, this means that they also lose access to [psionic] feats, which includes PsiCrysal Affinity - so, does a manifester lose his PsiCrystal if he runs out of power points for the day?  If not, then a Cleric shouldn't lose access to Dweomerkeeper by casting his Anyspell-prepared Arcane spell. 

Re: Ability definition
The difference between the 2 definitions is that Definition 1 relates to the specific case, and Definition 2 relates to the general case.  Perhaps another example is needed. 
Let's pretend I can juggle, but not very well.  I can only use the little juggling balls I was trained with.  Now, I always have the Definition 2 'ability' to juggle, because it's a skill I have regardless of circumstances.  But if I don't have my juggling balls to hand, I don't at that time have the Definition 1 'ability' to juggle, because I'm incapable of juggling at the moment. 
In the same way, a wizard always has the Definition 2 ability to cast spells, but a wizard who is out of spells for the day doesn't meet the Definition 1 version of 'ability'. 

[LargePrime]

Re: Psionics
A manifester out of power points no longer has the ability to manifest powers, according to you, and thus no longer qualifies for the [psionic] subtype.

What?  What the What?  I said no such thing.

Re: Ability definition

You are restating what I said.  You call it time, I called it "Distance".  So we agree.
The Wizard example shows that a case we assume true, (A wizard qualifying for an 'Arcane Caster' Prerequisite PrC class) can have a very big distance/time between "in the future I can do that", and "I can do that right now".

[linklord231]

My apologies, I must have misunderstood you here.

Here's a piece of RAW that contradicts the "wizards who cast all their spells don't qualify for PrCs" argument, from the SRD.  The very first words of the "Spells" class feature are:

A wizard casts arcane spells...

The PHB goes on to say

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.

Therefore a wizard has the ability to cast only a limited number of spells per day. 

This contradicts you assertion "the ability to cast arcane spells no matter how many used or unused spell slots are left".  Thus, it seems, "wizards who cast all their spells don't qualify for PrCs" stands.

[LargePrime]

ReRead the thread.

[liquid150]

Your stubbornness makes it less likely people will take you seriously on anything, Large. If all you have to say is "reread the thread," go suck on a pacifier or something.

Technically, none of the definitions of the word "ability" allows for a cleric with Anyspell to qualify. All of these allow the wizard to qualify, even when out of spells. It's simple reading comprehension.

1. The quality of being able to do something, especially the physical, mental, financial, or legal power to accomplish something.
The wizard inherently has the physical and mental quality of being able to cast spells, always. Number of spells per day is none of the physical, mental, legal, or financial power to accomplish casting spells, it is an abstract game rule dis-joined from the above. The cleric with Anyspell only gains the physical and mental power to accomplish casting arcane spells by first taking an action which grants the quality itself. If Anyspell is not currently active, the cleric has neither and thus does not qualify.

2. A natural or acquired skill or talent.
A wizard always has the natural acquired skill to cast arcane spells, regardless of whether he has a spell of a particular level available to cast that day. He still retains the quality. The cleric only gains an acquired skill to cast arcane spells by first casting Anyspell.

3. The quality of being suitable for or receptive to a specified treatment; capacity
This obviously refers to the following definition of "capacity:"
a : an individual's mental or physical ability
The wizard has both the mental and physical ability to cast arcane spells, even with none left for the day. Whether he can or cannot do it "right now" is not relevant, because he inherently owns this ability.

The cleric, on the other hand, must first take an action that gives him the ability. He does not inherently own it. Rather, he gains it through magic, and loses it once that magic is expended.

It is a question of degrees of separation, not a question of "can I do it right now." The cleric with Anyspell is separated from the ability to cast arcane spells by a single degree of separation, Anyspell. The wizard is separated by none, he has the ability inherently. Without Anyspell, the cleric cannot cast arcane spells, period. The wizard needs no qualification action, he has the ability inherently whether or not he has any spells left for the day. Spells per day is not a reflection of owning the ability, it is an abstraction of the wizard's limitations and nothing more.

If you want to ignore the definitions of words, be my guest. It just makes you look like a boob.

[Halinn]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capacity?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic

capacity
noun
1. the ability to receive or contain


I argue that anyspell qualifies one to that definition of capacity.

[liquid150]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capacity?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic

capacity
noun
1. the ability to receive or contain


I argue that anyspell qualifies one to that definition of capacity.

That definition isn't pertinent. Go look up the definitions of receive and contain.

[LargePrime]

Your stubbornness makes it less likely

Go fuck yourself fucktard.
In the first 20 posts I make the point the exact opposite linklord231 is misquoting me about.  I am not going to argue about what I said when IT IS RIGHT THE FUCK THERE!  What I will have the patients to do is say "ReRead the thread" because what the fuck else can you say to a fucktard that cannot read and remember who said what on a 2 page thread?  Especially when it seems they care enough to POST in the thread.

The IDEA that I am being 'suborn' because other people will not read is stupid.  It is also a personal attack!

The definition that matters regarding Anyspell is "as a wizard".  That is pretty much defined as arcane caster.

Again I am not going to have a druid poison immunity discussion with you.

[Kajhera]

Settle down guys. Don't see how this is something to get worked up about. 

Mechanically I'd read it as the cleric becomes an arcane spellcaster with the ability to cast arcane spells... while they have an arcane spell prepared, and loses it when they don't. Unless you have domain spontaneity I'd advise against using it to get into a PrC too often. Also, beware of being temporarily vulnerable to mageslayers with favored enemy (arcanist) and magebane weapons.

Wizards and so forth don't lose it because they actually have arcane spellcasting as a class feature rather than yes, gaining it through a spell. Remember that a psionic character who runs out of power points can't gain psionic focus though, and thus will lose access to a fair portion of their psionic feats (not that anyone was claiming otherwise, but seems like a useful reminder).

[Halinn]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capacity?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic

capacity
noun
1. the ability to receive or contain


I argue that anyspell qualifies one to that definition of capacity.

That definition isn't pertinent. Go look up the definitions of receive and contain.

receive
verb (used with object)
1. to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered)
2. to have (something) bestowed, conferred, etc

contain
verb (used with object)
2. to be capable of holding; have capacity for

From anyspell:
"Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind."
That, I argue, qualifies for the ability to contain.

[Wiggins]

Settle down guys. Don't see how this is something to get worked up about. 

Mechanically I'd read it as the cleric becomes an arcane spellcaster with the ability to cast arcane spells... while they have an arcane spell prepared, and loses it when they don't. Unless you have domain spontaneity I'd advise against using it to get into a PrC too often. Also, beware of being temporarily vulnerable to mageslayers with favored enemy (arcanist) and magebane weapons.

Wizards and so forth don't lose it because they actually have arcane spellcasting as a class feature rather than yes, gaining it through a spell. Remember that a psionic character who runs out of power points can't gain psionic focus though, and thus will lose access to a fair portion of their psionic feats (not that anyone was claiming otherwise, but seems like a useful reminder).

This is the point, and we've been saying this exact interpretation to LargePrime for about a week now, and he just keeps swearing and shouting and thinking we're persecuting him.