Paragon

[oslecamo]

1) It is ASF, fixed.

2)It doesn't matter whetever you're a wizard or sorceror. They both gain new spell levels every two levels, and the casting excellences always grant you two levels advancment each time, so you'll always unlock a new level of spells and can learn the extras from there.

Also, the more advanced excellences grant more extra spells, so I don't believe they need retraining on top of that.

[VennDygrem]

You misunderstand, I'm sorry. The Greater Excellence 'Paragon Spell' allows you to "Choose one of your spells. It gains +1 to CL, DC and now ignores any previous limits on CL it had. Plus every time you cast that spell, you have a 75% chance of recovering the slot and being able to use it again."

The retraining I asked about was in regards to the "one spell" you can choose for the ability. A wizard is almost always going to be able to choose a higher level spell than a comparable Sorcerer could for the one spell, if they wanted to.

If you're still against it, that's fine. There are plenty of lower level spells it can be useful for, though less-so at higher levels of play.

[oslecamo]

Ah, I get it now. Done then.

[VennDygrem]

You may want to reword it so that "at every level you gain, you may replace the spell you chose for this ability with another spell you know." Otherwise someone will assume you apply it to multiple spells as you gain levels.

[oslecamo]

Done.

[Rakoa]

About Paragon Fencing: Do natural attacks qualify to benefit from the excellence? And should you possess multiple natural attacks of the same kind, do they all benefit on a full-attack? If not, perhaps an Excellence based on natural attacks could be appropriate. I ask because I'm playing a Grell in one of my groups and I want to get Forged By Experience, but none of the requisites really fit the monster.

Speaking of which, should my Grell obtain Forged By Experience, need it enchant every tentacle separately?

[oslecamo]

About Paragon Fencing: Do natural attacks qualify to benefit from the excellence?

Yes.

And should you possess multiple natural attacks of the same kind, do they all benefit on a full-attack?

No. Only one weapon at a time.

If not, perhaps an Excellence based on natural attacks could be appropriate. I ask because I'm playing a Grell in one of my groups and I want to get Forged By Experience, but none of the requisites really fit the monster.

Well, as discussed earlier on this thread, multiple natural attacks don't really need that much help.

Still, with a fighter dip,  Paragon block would be useful for a Grell if you ask me. Hold one shield in one tentacle to get a pretty nice Block chance, plenty of attacks leftover.

Speaking of which, should my Grell obtain Forged By Experience, need it enchant every tentacle separately?

Yes. Would be kinda crazy otherwise.

[Rejakor]

What happened to 'Can You Weaklings Not Fight Any Better'?

That's the best name out of the lot.

[oslecamo]

It's togheter with the other extra perfect excellences.

[Rejakor]

a) This class has replaced Fighter in my games, and it works really, really, really well in that role.  Fighters that can actually do stuff!  My cleric player really loves it because he doesn't feel bad about using spells anymore.

b) Can the extra perfect excellences be put into the class proper?

[oslecamo]

Always great to hear that my work is being put to good use! 

Also moved the extra excellences to the main post if you think it's more convenient.

[DavidWL]

It occurs to me:
* Paragon Caster & etc. are super powerful on fast casters.  Not just ur-priest, but also Sublime Chord (which can pick off of the sorcerer and bard lists as well).  For Sublime chord, it also gives much needed spell slots.  I don't think you should change this, as these are really edge cases.  Ur-Priest is already broken, and sublime chord is a pain to qualify for.

* Similarly, Paragon Fighting Style & etc. are super powerful, because you keep full IL, get additional schools, additional manuevers, but you don't fall behind too much if you don't take it every pick.  For example, if you just spent 1/2 your picks (4) on being a martial character, you would still get +2 schools, +6 effective levels, +2 manuevers & +1 stance.  Some of your custom schools are worth it all by themselves (Hello "Red Magic" or some of the Plain History manuevers).

* Paragon Spell --> pretty innocent, but bypassing caster level constraints can be great in a few rare conditions (Contingency comes to mind).  This is actually a good thing ... makes an otherwise bland ability pretty cool!

Best,
David
 

[oslecamo]

Yes, Paragon is supposed to allow for powerful Martial characters and allow you to pick a nice set of maneuvers along having some leftover Excellences.

[HolyCahony]

Hello,

first of all: oslecamo I LOVE your creations!! 
Currently im building a gestalt character Anaxim//Paragorn /+5HD other Stuff as an back up char.
Main char is a Doppelganger / Terrasque // evolutioninst
Our DM is still managing to totally pawn us, despite the high power level we are playing.

As i was building the back up, I stumbled across the Excellence Paragon Proficiency:

Paragon Proficiency: You need proficiency with all martial weapons, heavy armor and at least 1 Exotic weapon to pick this Excellence. You gain proficiency with all Exotic weapons, and the saving DC of any effect created by magic weapons wielded by the Paragon becomes (10 + ½ HD + Highest Mental Stat mod) if it is higher than the standard DC. Effects which duplicate spells have a caster level equal to his HD if that is higher than normal (recalculate damage, duration, etc. as appropriate). Increase the enhancement bonus of any weapon wielded by the Paragon by 1; he may treat nonmagical weapons as +1 weapons, including natural weapons for both bonus.

I dont understand the last sentence. I can't tell, either natural weapons count as +2 (without any enchantments previously on them) or if all Weapons the Paragorn wields get +1 to their enhancement bonus (be it carried weapons or natural ones, magic or non magic).
Example for latter one: natural weapons would be +1 without previous enhancement and X+1 with previous enhancement X.

I'm no native speaker, so it might just be a language issue. 

many thanks in advance.

HC

[Raineh Daze]

If a weapon has no enhancement bonus: it's now treated as a +1 weapon.

If a weapon (any weapon) has an enhancement bonus: increase it by one

[oslecamo]

Hello,

first of all: oslecamo I LOVE your creations!! 
Currently im building a gestalt character Anaxim//Paragorn /+5HD other Stuff as an back up char.
Main char is a Doppelganger / Terrasque // evolutioninst
Our DM is still managing to totally pawn us, despite the high power level we are playing.

Thanks, always great to hear people are having fun with the material around here!

As i was building the back up, I stumbled across the Excellence Paragon Proficiency:

Paragon Proficiency: You need proficiency with all martial weapons, heavy armor and at least 1 Exotic weapon to pick this Excellence. You gain proficiency with all Exotic weapons, and the saving DC of any effect created by magic weapons wielded by the Paragon becomes (10 + ½ HD + Highest Mental Stat mod) if it is higher than the standard DC. Effects which duplicate spells have a caster level equal to his HD if that is higher than normal (recalculate damage, duration, etc. as appropriate). Increase the enhancement bonus of any weapon wielded by the Paragon by 1; he may treat nonmagical weapons as +1 weapons, including natural weapons for both bonus.

I dont understand the last sentence. I can't tell, either natural weapons count as +2 (without any enchantments previously on them) or if all Weapons the Paragorn wields get +1 to their enhancement bonus (be it carried weapons or natural ones, magic or non magic).
Example for latter one: natural weapons would be +1 without previous enhancement and X+1 with previous enhancement X.

I'm no native speaker, so it might just be a language issue. 

many thanks in advance.

HC

It's like Raineh Daze and your 2nd reading says, all Weapons the Paragorn wielded get +1 to their enhancement bonus (be it carried weapons or natural ones, magic or non magic).

[HolyCahony]

After your answers I noticed there is some pretty similar syntax in the german language
Constantly improving my skills 


I thought of some more Excellences you might consider adding.
Excellence:

(click to show/hide)

Paragon Skillfocus:
"You got your skills set, no denying that."
You can add 4x HD/2 as a Bonus to 2-4 Skills of your former Class/Race Skill list. You can stack these HD/2 once for a maximum of 2 times 1xHD Bonus.
But you can not stack them with a class or race bonus which is also depending on your HD or former Class Level.
You can pick this multiple times, each one for a new set of 2-4 Skills.

Paragon Ability Focus:
When you pick this Excellence choose an special ability which has one ore more ability score(s) for calculating the effect, range or damage of this special ability  (cannot be spellcasting).
You can exchange the ability scores to one of your choosing.
For e.g.: You got a breath weapon which DC is depending on your Strength score. You are a featherwhigt but a real smart one. Take Int as your ability score and fire away

Greater Excellences:

(click to show/hide)

Paragon Determination:
Choose one Base Class you pursued before entering the Paragon Template.
You now can add your Paragon Level to the Class Level to determine the strength or effect of all (special) abilities you have already unlocked in that class.
However, you don't get any new stuff from this class by taking this Excellence.
For e.g.: You are a Bard 5 Paragon 9, you can use your "Bardic Knowledge" as if you where a Bard 14. You can use "Inspire Courage +3" (cause you unlocked the +1 on HD1) but you don't have acces to "Suggestion", "Song of Competence" and "Song of Freedom" and you don't instantly get that stuff, when you go back to your Bard class after Paragon.

Paragon Greater Ability Focus:
"Nobody said a Succubus must be pretty or charismatic!... They did?.... Well who cares?! ...."
You need Paragon Ability Focus or Paragon Ability to pick this Greater Excellence.
Effect: like Paragon Ability Focus, but now you can change them all.

Perfekt Excellence:

(click to show/hide)

Unarmed but Dangerous:
You need Lager than Life to pick this.
The Lager than Life Size bonus now extends even to your Hands/natural Weapons. Increase the Damage die of your unarmed strike and/or natural weapons accordingly to the virtual size increase of Lager than Life.

You might rephrase it as you see fit.

[oslecamo]

Added Paragon Skillfocus to the basic Excellences list.

Ability Focus is somewhat out of the scope of Paragon. The purpose of this class is to make you do your usual things better, not in a different way. That's for what the Monster of Legend is for. Also there's some feats doing that kind of effect right now. Although I guess they could use some adapting to be more general range. Maybe later today.

Paragon Determination seems like a good idea, but needs a better wording. Right now I'm not very sure how it would work with things like Sneak attack, spells, maneuvers, monk AC/unarmed strike, etc.

Unarmed but Dangerous also seems like a good idea, but a bit weakish for a perfect Excellence. Right now it's just extra damage.

I'll think on suggestions on how to improve those if you don't mind.

Thanks for those!

[HolyCahony]

Paragon Determination:
After reading Paragon Magic and Paragon Warrior, I thought that there is something missing for normal classes.
Giving them the chance to change the Class Level dependent effects to HD dependent ones. But without giving them a progression in their old base class and OPing the excellence that way.
Sneak attack is unlocked early and stated with classlevels in the text, so it would increase with the excellence.
Spells are magic and not covered by the excellence (maybe i didn't point that out) [you already have excellences for this]
Maneuvers same as magic. already coveredy by warrior and the others.
Monk ac/unarmed strike would improve.

I hope I could clarify my goal a bit with this excellence.


Paragon (greater) Ability Focus:
Hmm.. ok.. if you put it that way... I can see your point
(the feats you linked from ariasderros, only allow charisma to be changed to some other mental stat. So altering a Int/Wis/Str/Con/Dex based special ability would not be possible.)


Unarmed but Dangerous
I have a large char with the Larger than Life excellence. He has some interesting natural weapons. They become more or less obsolete with taking LtL.
If you think it is not powerfull enough for a perfect excellence, feel free to increase its strength. 

[oslecamo]

Ok, added Paragon Determination as a normal Excellence (it's good, but not good enough for a Greater option I believe) along the extra examples.

Added a more versatile Altered Eldritch Source to the feats thread.

Since Larger than Life already allows you to wield bigger weapons, I don't see a reason why it shouldn't buff natural weapons by default as well, so simply buffed Larger than Life.