Author Topic: Fixing weapon basics  (Read 7891 times)

Offline veekie

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2012, 03:57:20 PM »
Hmm, true, that, though modifying damage always does go back to power in a way. Would there be anything modifying weapon precision as well?

One thing the D&D weapon system doesn't really handle well is just how flexible pretty much any weapon is, especially martial weapons like longswords and warhammers. Anything with a haft can be used to trip, and theres a huge variety of tricks that run off weapon geometry and leverage, whereas the rules just go with damage, plus whatever superficial tricks the weapon looks like its shape can do.
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2012, 06:34:30 PM »
You can disarm a person in reality with just about anything, if you hit hard enough...
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2012, 11:46:12 PM »
Very true, but I'm sticking with the spirit of the game.  I think that the disarm function of a longsword would be more of a "you took the Improved Disarm feat", rather than the weapon aiding you.  Then with a whip, the weapon is designed to grab things, so it should have a bonus.  That sort of thing.  As for accuracy: maybe?  Maybe that's what Masterwork will become?

Oh, right, MW weapons now don't exist as they were.

As for the damage adjustments, in response to you veekie, I think what you're trying to say is that damage is more of a determiner of power than I thought it was?  If that's so, then yeah, I did take damage into account, I'm trying to balance things around the "max average damage" the weapon can do, trying to figure out if a certain ability will match it.
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Offline Tarkisflux

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2012, 12:13:37 AM »
Were you going to keep the Simple / Martial / Exotic divide around? If so, would a martial weapon be basically a simple weapon of the same size / wielding style with an extra bonus or two? And then exotics were a couple bonuses above that?

Offline veekie

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2012, 01:26:14 AM »
Very true, but I'm sticking with the spirit of the game.  I think that the disarm function of a longsword would be more of a "you took the Improved Disarm feat", rather than the weapon aiding you.  Then with a whip, the weapon is designed to grab things, so it should have a bonus.  That sort of thing.  As for accuracy: maybe?  Maybe that's what Masterwork will become?

Oh, right, MW weapons now don't exist as they were.

As for the damage adjustments, in response to you veekie, I think what you're trying to say is that damage is more of a determiner of power than I thought it was?  If that's so, then yeah, I did take damage into account, I'm trying to balance things around the "max average damage" the weapon can do, trying to figure out if a certain ability will match it.

Well, multiple factors:
-Different types of weapons have differing qualities towards the basic traits of accuracy(to hit), damage, penetration(in D&D this seems to be high crit multiplier vs high crit range), and parrying compatibility(Shield bonus? large weapons are supposed to be good for deflecting attacks, but not quite as good as using a long+short weapon, and even less effective than a shield and long weapon).
In the gamist sense, I figure weapons favored by 3/4 BAB classes would tend to have high accuracy and lower damage, as their damage sources derive from their own class features, and they could use the accuracy. On the other hand adding another significant damage or accuracy source can throw off damage expectations.

-Disarm is a special case yes, since you can do it with any weapon. Some are better at it(sword-breakers for example)

-Some of the features of weapons should derive from advanced weapons training, which would grant each weapon a relatively unique fighting style. Some generalizations:
Any staff or polearm weapon(barring a field pike or lance, which are too long to maneuver close in) can be used to sweep enemies off their feet, and act interchangeably as a reach or double weapon(or both at once in the hands of a true expert). However, basic proficiency training largely focuses on using only one end as a weapon.

Curved blades are especially good at moving assaults(striking from one target to another), and do well when the target is lightly armored. Straight blades are great at penetrating armor, but are more awkward to perform running attacks with, yet also present more options for alternative grips.

Chain and flexible weapons can be used to grab, bind and break.

Pretty much all the non-polearms can be used in a grapple, at bad accuracy granted, but they do still work.

EDIT: Would shields be absorbed into weapon types proper or do they remain in their strange place as both armor and weapon?
Also, what about Armor Spikes, boot knives, etc and their tendency to be off-hand to a 2H weapon, or their tendency to be used as one weapon to each body part?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 01:33:17 AM by veekie »
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2012, 02:14:18 AM »
Were you going to keep the Simple / Martial / Exotic divide around? If so, would a martial weapon be basically a simple weapon of the same size / wielding style with an extra bonus or two? And then exotics were a couple bonuses above that?

Try reading Reply #17 above.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2012, 06:41:44 AM »
Quote
EDIT: Would shields be absorbed into weapon types proper or do they remain in their strange place as both armor and weapon?
Also, what about Armor Spikes, boot knives, etc and their tendency to be off-hand to a 2H weapon, or their tendency to be used as one weapon to each body part?

Shields will be different, but I'm not sure how just yet.  I'm leaning towards weapon, and the bonuses that it gets are the AC bonuses, but that's far from set because they do act weirdly.  I do know that armor spikes will not be a weapon, same with the boot knives, gauntlets, and other similar "weapons".  Armor spikes will be a defense thing (against grapple, and just add their damage/effects to the result of a grapple check for you), and the rest will be added on to unarmed strikes.  I'm not sure if I posted that fix yet, but if I did it will be in the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.  Anyways, the gist of it is that everyone has one unarmed strike, but attacking with a gauntlet or something similar will add that damage to the unarmed strike (this will end up being slightly less power than my Monk fix).  When taken with the current equipment system, it kind of sucks (have to enchant the number that you want), but with the new one I made it'll be fine (you enchant one weapon, and US is one weapon, so it applies to all unarmed strikes).

As for the rest of your post, all good ideas, but it'll take some time to process it.

EDIT: one thing I can say though is that in D&D damage and penetration seem to be directly related, so a combination of them is the damage of the weapon AND the crits.  Which does remove it somewhat, yes.

Also, I will not be attempting to make it "ultra-realistic".  I will instead make it "fantasy realistic".  Where the rule of cool trumps the laws of physics.  So while the physics will (hopefully) be internally consistent, they won't necessarily match those of the real world.  They will be close.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 07:28:05 AM by dman11235 »
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Offline Tarkisflux

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2012, 10:52:32 AM »
Were you going to keep the Simple / Martial / Exotic divide around? If so, would a martial weapon be basically a simple weapon of the same size / wielding style with an extra bonus or two? And then exotics were a couple bonuses above that?

Try reading Reply #17 above.

Missed that line at the end of the paragraph in there. Thanks.

Offline EjoThims

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2012, 05:13:44 PM »
Huh?  Where are you getting the 1/round thing from?  This would apply to all attacks.  So this would be the base damage for the attack.  Strictly the base damage, not total damage or anything.  So that +5 adjustment to M damage from a 1d8 would be 6d6+str+maneuver+whatever enhancements you have.  On each attack.  So a full attack at BAB 16+ would be 24d6+4xstr+4xenhancements beyond that, assuming everything hit.

I was still speaking of bites, since my point was that the slow progression hurts the melee builds that traditionally benefited the most from stacking size boosts (especially virtual ones), and bites (with few exceptions) are the highest damage natural attacks but limited to once per round without multiple full attack or multiple head shenanigans.

However, 24d6+4(Str+boosts) each round is still a paltry number for base damage by level 16 (especially when you still have a 5%+ to only do 75% damage, 5.25% chance to do only 50%, etc.), even if you're just comparing straight blasting spells. Of course, there's PA and such, but firstly those are hardly base, and secondly, scale how they do to try to and make up for the deficiency in base melee damage.

If this is a standalone change, I still think there's too much of a slowdown in the middle.


Also, it is strange that I never got an email notice about more replies in this thread.  :???

Offline dman11235

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2012, 12:48:16 AM »
This isn't so much a change in damage amount from vanilla, keep in mind.  I'm streamlining the whole system so it has one value progression so it's easy to adjust for size differences.  In the base game, you still aren't having that big of a boost (not even 8d6 bonus on the Greatsword) for a single size increase.

I think the ultimate goal will be to bring weapon choice up a bit in relevancy, while making the bulk of the damage still come from character choice.  So I think about 25% of the damage will come from the weapon (this includes base damage and enhancement bonus) and the remaining will come from the character and boosts (beneficial spells and such).  Some weapons will deal more damage (bringing their damage percent up to around 33%) while others have more utility uses (trip, disarm, etc.)

On bites: ah, well, still, if you're relying on a single attack a round, one would assume you have something that makes the attack worth the lost other attacks.  On natural attacks in general, they will change fairly significantly.  For one, no more stacking NI natural attacks as a changeling Warshaper.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Fixing weapon basics
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2012, 02:24:23 PM »
Shields will be different, but I'm not sure how just yet.  I'm leaning towards weapon, and the bonuses that it gets are the AC bonuses, but that's far from set because they do act weirdly.
Depends on your opinion of having an intrinsic parry bonus to each weapon, as well as the role of active shield use(defense only vs TWF weapon). If for example, every weapon has a parry bonus, then shields merely require A) an increased parry bonus relative to weapons of it's handedness, B) applying a greater multiplier of its weapon enchantment bonus to its parry bonus(+1.5x of +s, round up), C) allow weapon enchantment bonuses to apply to parry bonuses.

Quote
Also, I will not be attempting to make it "ultra-realistic".  I will instead make it "fantasy realistic".  Where the rule of cool trumps the laws of physics.  So while the physics will (hopefully) be internally consistent, they won't necessarily match those of the real world.  They will be close.
Fantasy-realistic is fine, the main thing is that most current weapon usages are actually weaker than ultra-realistic. Realism gives you a handy starting point and all.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.