Alignment & mindless minions

[veekie]

Alignment of mindless creatures

Uncontrolled mindless creatures - Mindless creatures operating outside the control of a sentient creature have no alignment, and are treated as True Neutral objects for the purpose of alignment effects, unless they possess an alignment subtype.
Such creatures operate solely based on their programming, which may favor particular actions based on the animating force or effect, but which confers no alignment on the creature.
E.g. A golem animated by an earth elemental would, in the absence of any commands or stimuli to the contrary, remain motionless, or aimlessly stack materials. A zombie animated by an [Evil] spell that lost its master, in the absence of a contradicting command, would act to kill . Both have no alignments, though the zombie may still have the aura of its animating spell.

Controlled mindless creatures - A mindless creature under the direct control of a sentient creature assumes the alignment of the controller for the purpose of all game mechanics. This control can be achieved by programming(golems made to obey specific masters for example), by magic(Command Undead or Control Ooze) or any other means(Undead obtained by Rebuking). Creatures with multiple masters of differing alignments only count the master which last successfully(failing to do so, e.g. losing a contested charisma check, does not count) issued a command.

Items and Alignment - Mindless items wielded by a sentient creature, or by a mindless creature under the direct control of a sentient creature assumes the alignment qualities of the sentient creature. Items with an intrinsic alignment restriction ignores the alignment of unqualified wielders, and creatures using Use Magic Device to meet alignment restrictions. Items containing aligned effects(e.g Holy/Unholy weapons) are treated as if they possessed the corresponding alignment subtypes.

Inspired by the discussion below
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Should a Golem be effected by a Holy Word when he's skullfucking orphans?  What about when he's pulling orphans out of a flaming building and someone casts Blasphemy?  If a mindless creature does nothing but follow orders, then he's objectively Neutral.  It doesn't matter what his actions actually are.
Every other mindless creature is Neutral aligned, unless you slap a template like Fiendish on it.  What makes undead different? 

You know, an interesting idea I just had, to have automatons and mindless minions be TREATED as having the alignment of their current master or neutral. After all, they are essentially a tool in every respect.

[linklord231]

Should a Golem be effected by a Holy Word when he's skullfucking orphans?  What about when he's pulling orphans out of a flaming building and someone casts Blasphemy?  If a mindless creature does nothing but follow orders, then he's objectively Neutral.  It doesn't matter what his actions actually are.
Every other mindless creature is Neutral aligned, unless you slap a template like Fiendish on it.  What makes undead different? 

You know, an interesting idea I just had, to have automatons and mindless minions be TREATED as having the alignment of their current master or neutral. After all, they are essentially a tool in every respect.

Interesting idea.  I rather like it.  Would that mean an Paladin can declare a Smite on a Sunder attempt on the evil guy's sword?
Would a Fiendish Centipede summoned by a Good Malkonvoker be treated as Good, Evil, or both?

[littha]

Should a Golem be effected by a Holy Word when he's skullfucking orphans?  What about when he's pulling orphans out of a flaming building and someone casts Blasphemy?  If a mindless creature does nothing but follow orders, then he's objectively Neutral.  It doesn't matter what his actions actually are.
Every other mindless creature is Neutral aligned, unless you slap a template like Fiendish on it.  What makes undead different? 

You know, an interesting idea I just had, to have automatons and mindless minions be TREATED as having the alignment of their current master or neutral. After all, they are essentially a tool in every respect.

Interesting idea.  I rather like it.  Would that mean an Paladin can declare a Smite on a Sunder attempt on the evil guy's sword?
Would a Fiendish Centipede summoned by a Good Malkonvoker be treated as Good, Evil, or both?

I actually rather like this, the sword thing has some nice imagery to it too.

As for the Fiendish Centipede Its int is at least 3 due to the template...

[veekie]

Yeah, ONLY automatons, and mindless minions, subtypes applying as normal(which may make it both alignments at once). Items...well why not?

[veekie]

Split off from a discussion tangent and formalized. Wording suggestions welcome.

[whitetyger009]

a thing with no sense of self and which can not think for itself can not have an alignment.  not even subjective.  in the case of the golem and the orphans the golem has no ability to judge what it does it only follows orders.  this golem could no more be ANY alignment than a sword can.  an alignment is based on the choices one makes, and the actions that those choices leeds him/her to take.  its responsbility, you have made a choice and then carried out actions based on that choice you are now responsible for the outcome for good or evil.

if a 'person' makes the decision to kill all the people in a village and burn the bodies wouldn't we say that was the actions of an evil person?  oh yes the 'person' making the decision can say that they were all going to die and be reanimated as undead and therefore he was protecting their souls and depriving the enemy of more soldiers, but that doesn't change the fact that what he did was evil.

now in the case of the golem (or any unthinking, mindless ambulatory thing) it can not make that decision.  it can not say no this is wrong.  it can ONLY follow orders.  just as a sword or bow can be used to kill innocents.  this in itself doesn't make the sword or bow evil.  evil is a choice that one makes in addition to the actions we take.  since a thing can not be good or evil i would be against even a temporary shift simply because of the controllers alignment.  again we get back to that choice thing. 

it would be like saying a gun is evil because a person murdered people with it.  the gun can not be evil it is a thing.  the actions can be evil but a thing can not be responsible for what is done with it. 

[littha]

There is of course a precedent in fantasy fiction for an item that is used to do great evil becomes evil. Even if it isn't intelligent. A sword used to slay thousands of innocent people might actually be evil in this case.*
Usually this is explained by some kind of empathetic imprint on it through its use. It also leads to a lot of those "Destroy the Evil artefact" quests.

* Not that this is supported in D&D but its a fantasy staple in a few places.

[veekie]

@whitetyger009
Erm, dude, this is a suggestion for a houserule.

[whitetyger009]

@whitetyger009
Erm, dude, this is a suggestion for a houserule.

yes it is.  i gave my opnion and reasoning for it.

[Bozwevial]

From a mechanical standpoint, it would certainly make sense to treat those mindless creatures or items used by sentient creatures as having the same alignment. It's very silly that your holy powers would apply if you were punching out the man who made the flesh golem, but not if you were to punch out the golem itself as it ransacked an orphanage on his command. Why do they work in case A and not case B when not having those powers means that it is entirely likely more orphans will die before the golem is stopped? Maybe your deity has some sort of ineffable plan because one of those orphans will grow up to be a necromancer himself. Whatever. We're going to say eff it anyway.

Another possible quick fix would be to change Smite Foo into Smite Opposition, so that it works on any obstacle to your cause and you can smite your way through a door, a wall of stone thrown up by the latest hotshot wizard high on his own power, or neutral summoned critters. Doesn't do anything for Blasphemy, Holy Word, and everything else, but that's another kettle of fish.

[veekie]

Well, I hadn't included spell effects, mostly because they are a little problematic to sort out. Ongoing spell effects could certainly count, but instant effects, especially fire-and-forget stuff are indistinguishable from a normal barrier.