The Role of the Fighter in a Party

[oslecamo]

Draconic Polymorph. You are now a 39 Str 35 Con War Troll. You can't cast it on others. It's also Persistable. Clerics get it via Greater Anyspell.

Which demands a specific domain. Not all clerics will have the Spell domain available. Even if they do, it's a 6th level spell, thus coming online at 11th level, and honestly all noncasters will have plenty of trouble keeping up with magic by then, not just the fighter.

[ImperatorK]

31 Con.

[Basket Burner]

Draconic Polymorph. You are now a 39 Str 35 Con War Troll. You can't cast it on others. It's also Persistable. Clerics get it via Greater Anyspell.

Which demands a specific domain. Not all clerics will have the Spell domain available. Even if they do, it's a 6th level spell, thus coming online at 11th level, and honestly all noncasters will have plenty of trouble keeping up with magic by then, not just the fighter.

Wizards can do it naturally. That's not the point though. The point is the best spells have a range of Personal, so it is flat out impossible to throw them on someone else even if that were a good idea.

[liquid150]

This thread is priceless. The results of the SGT are known, and the fighter is an epic failure.

Here's an important point: just because the fighter can win because he is given help from a caster does not mean that the fighter has contributed. When you can get the same results from buffing an animal companion, or your familiar for shits and giggles, this means that the fighter is not really contributing in any way that can be considered appropriate for a PC.

So... how do you fix it.
I play the tome classes.
Some people play other homebrew, while some feel like "The Warblade" ftw.
What do you think?

Warblade/Tome go a fair way. Far enough that they are acceptable.

[veekie]

It's not just that.  A Cleric with 1 relevant buff is absolutely NOT the same kind of melee that a Fighter with 1 relevant buff is.  Divine Power isn't some awesome buff that the Cleric casts that makes him better than the Fighter, it's a buff the Cleric casts just to put himself on-par with the Fighter.  As such, every time the Cleric doesn't have to cast Divine Power, the Fighter effectively saves someone else a 4th-level spell.

Basically that, yes. He doesn't do it very well(just slap that same buff on a ToB character and watch the differences), but he does act as a better target for the buff until persistables come into the picture.

[skydragonknight]

I would assume speed bump means the same as an actual speed bump. You slow down a little, get past it easily, and continue on. Given that he described it as a terrible role, and it is I think it fits.

The problem is actually in defense. Boss level creatures are barely affected by his AC and anything that targets Will could potentially negate the Fighter altogether. The role of a Fighter is supposed to be his staying power, but between monster stats and abilities and iterative probability, his best hope of survival is ubercharging to eliminate threats quickly.

[LordBlades]

It's not just that.  A Cleric with 1 relevant buff is absolutely NOT the same kind of melee that a Fighter with 1 relevant buff is.  Divine Power isn't some awesome buff that the Cleric casts that makes him better than the Fighter, it's a buff the Cleric casts just to put himself on-par with the Fighter.  As such, every time the Cleric doesn't have to cast Divine Power, the Fighter effectively saves someone else a 4th-level spell.

I agree, a non DMM Persistent cleric needs to cast Divine Power in every fight in order to be roughly the same as a fighter. I never claimed a cleric without persist is better than the fighter as a buff platform (I said it might be, depending on pre-buff time). It's a non-issue for a DMM Persist Cleric of course.

I don't really understand what you mean with your last sentence. Are you talking about a 'fighter and cleric in the same party, who does melee?' or 'what character should one play for the melee role, fighter or cleric?' scenario. If it's the former then yes, completely agree. By having the fighter there the cleric doesn't have to melee (assuming one really needs a melee in the first place). If it's the latter however, I'd rather have a guy that has to cast Divine Power every relevant fight (3-4 times/day probably) and still has other spells to cast for the day rather than a guy that doesn't need Divine Power but can't cast any spells whatsoever.

[veekie]

Correct, but you don't get to choose your party for one, so there is a high likelihood of at least one fighter-type character. How you deal with his role in the party is the pertinent part, not which class is superior(that much is obvious).

[LordBlades]

Correct, but you don't get to choose your party for one, so there is a high likelihood of at least one fighter-type character. How you deal with his role in the party is the pertinent part, not which class is superior(that much is obvious).

Well, at least a modicum of common sense  and pregame discussion would ideally exist to prevent stuff like bringing a monk in a full tier 1 party or viceversa, but in the end yeah, if you happen to have a fighter tagging along, you might as well make some use of it (since he's probably getting XP and loot anyway).

[veekie]

Yep, and its a social activity anyway, so as long as everybody has fun, it works out.

[Basket Burner]

I would assume speed bump means the same as an actual speed bump. You slow down a little, get past it easily, and continue on. Given that he described it as a terrible role, and it is I think it fits.

The problem is actually in defense. Boss level creatures are barely affected by his AC and anything that targets Will could potentially negate the Fighter altogether. The role of a Fighter is supposed to be his staying power, but between monster stats and abilities and iterative probability, his best hope of survival is ubercharging to eliminate threats quickly.

Exactly my point. He's one of the squishiest party members, if not the most squishy. That description could also describe enemies walking around though.

Correct, but you don't get to choose your party for one, so there is a high likelihood of at least one fighter-type character. How you deal with his role in the party is the pertinent part, not which class is superior(that much is obvious).

Though, given his squishiness that is often a self correcting problem.

[veekie]

Probably, doesn't come up a whole lot in a lot of game groups though, and hes not exactly a whole lot squishier, given how damage(of all sorts) vs defense goes. He just happens to be the one with the unenviable position of being needed up close.

[Basket Burner]

A combination of having nothing but HP and an ineffective AC and having to take full attacks makes anyone squishy.

Just most others either don't have to take full attacks, have non AC defenses or both.

Which means the only one squishier than a Fighter is a Rogue.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, yeah, rogue is crazy, insanely "what the hell were they thinking?" squishy.  I refuse to do melee as a rogue w/o Staggering Strike feat anymore, as a general rule.  I think Rogue badly needs a d8 HD and a second good save (I vote will, so wisdom can actually be a dump stat as it should be), and the fact cleric and druid get them and rogue doesn't boggles my freaking mind.


Again...back on topic.  As I said, the only reason to actually make a [anything martial] 20 is just because you want to, it's completely illogical otherwise.  But if the point of this thread is to take that batch of lemons that is a player who says, "I wanna do Fighter 20!" and turn it into lemonade...it'd be nice to get off of all this comparison stuff and debating how bad the class is...  So, my rough attempt at Fighter 20 (or 19 if you don't do LA buyoff, I guess):

Goliath Fighter 20

Feats (18 total, in no particular order): Power Attack, Knockback, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Abberant Blood (...the "+2 grapple" one), Abberant Reach, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Backstab, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Martial Study (Cloak of Deception or Shadow Jaunt) and Martial Stance (Island of Blades) [or Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker, if you want to go for Thicket of Blades stance instead], Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing), Weapon Supremacy

Hmm...I'm at 19, could probably just drop expertise and trip and have 1 left to spend.  Just one collection you might do.  Can do devastating charging bull rushes (much more devastating if he were allowed to Lion Totem Barb 1, but whatever), and is an AoO and flanking machine.  Pair him with a rogue, and enemies will be put in pretty awful lose-lose situations.  With Backstab, if they attack the rogue, you AoO them, if they attack you...you're doing your job (and maybe the rogue also gets Backstab).  Goliath means you have to pay for ML 3 tattoos of expansion instead of cheap CL 1 Enlarge Person potions, but oh well.

[Nachofan99]

How many rounds does a tower shield survive against any of the CR10 monsters?

[Basket Burner]

How many rounds does a tower shield survive against any of the CR10 monsters?

A fraction of one, and then you're down a lot of wealth.

Alternately forever, because everything goes and attacks someone else.

[Nachofan99]

You're down a lot of wealth at 10th level because your non-magical, non-masterwork 30 GP tower shield really puts a dent in your 49,000gp.

What worthless comments.

First you conclude, based on nothing, that a tower shield automatically dies to everything.  Yeah, a 30gp regular tower shield that a 10th level character is still using might not be appropriate against CR10 threats, ya think?  Give me a break.  The thing is, even the 30GP tower shield doesn't break against everything.  Look at the numbers.  You've probably never even considered this before.

The average damage of the listed CR10s full attacks as listed.  I understand many monsters attack with magic or special attacks - this is just a SUPER SIMPLE listing of their "melee" attacks and how completely ineffective *some* of them are against anything with an Ordinary, 30gp, tower shield.

However, with 49,000GP, a Fighter could easily afford a Large Adamantine Tower Shield, say, +1.  With a hardness of 22 and 50 or 60 HP; that shield stands up to nearly every CR10 monster listed except the Fire Giant.

And again, these are AVERAGE numbers.

Animated Object, Colossal - 1 attack for 20 average damage.  An ordinary tower shield with Hardness 5 and 20HP survives the attack. The Fighter won't lose HP until the 3rd round.
Brass Dragon, Young adult Large Dragon (Fire) - large Str 19 - After the Bite(Net Dmg 6)/Claw(Net 1) /Claw(Net 2)/Wing(Net 0)/Wing (Net 1)/Tail routine (Net 6), the Fighter has lost an average of 16 HP...off his 30GP shield.
Couatl Large Outsider (Native) - Shield loses 3 HP - Fighter does not get grappled or poisoned in the First Round.  Seems pretty good.  I know it's a caster.
Cryohydra, Nine-Headed Huge Magical Beast (Cold) - 9 attacks (1d10+5) - Average Net Damage to shield (5/6/5/6), 4 attacks and the shield is dead and the Fighter takes 5 hits for (11/10/11/10/11)=53 damage.  Good thing he had the shield because without it, he would have taken 42 more and risked 4 more possible criticals.  A 30 GP item gave the Fighter MORE THAN an extra 53 HP - seems like a pretty good deal.
Demon, Bebilith Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) - Bite (16), Claw (9), Claw (9)  leaves the shield at 1HP and not destroyed once you take off the Hardness  for each attack.  Oh, and no poison check.  Seems good.
Formian Myrmarch Large Outsider (Lawful, Extraplanar) - Melee (9), Bite (9).  So I could stand toe to toe with it, letting it devour the shield for 2 rounds and an additional 1 attack and attack no damage and make no poison saves.  For 30GP?  Seems good.
Giant, Fire Large Giant (Fire) - Melee at 3d6+15 - Well Fire Giants do an ass-load of damage and have 3 attacks.  They also have Power Attack and Improved Sunder if it matters.  Greatsword (25), Greatsword (26), Greatsword (25) Kills the shield and deals 51 damage.  At least the shield was 30gp for an extra 25HP.  If it were improved *at all* it would have absorbed at least 51 pts before getting wrecked. 
Golem, Clay Large Construct - Slam 2d10+7, Slam (18), Slam (18) - Well the Fighter takes no damage but losses his 30GP shield.  At least he doesn't take 38 points of damage and doesn't have  2 Cursed Wounds.  Seems good.  Golems have Int '-', so it really has no choice of strategy.
Hydra, Eleven-Headed Huge Magical Beast - Hydras are good.  11 Bites at 1d10+6 (11)*6(12)*5 - Shield absorbs 4 hits and breaks.  Better to be hit 7 times than 11 times. Those 4 attacks would have done an extra 46HP in damage.  A better shield would cost more money and absorb a lot more damage.  The max damage on the Hydras attacks is 16; an Adamantine Tower shield would take 0 damage.
Monstrous Scorpion, Gargantuan Vermin - Claw (17)/Claw(17)/Sting (12) - 30GP Shield saves Fighter from claws but not the Sting.  Adamantine Shield would save Fighter from all the damage forever.
Naga, Guardian Large Aberration - Bite (14) - Shield takes 3 round to break and not having to make poison saves is nice.  Obviously this is a caster of course.
Pyrohydra, Nine-Headed Huge Magical Beast (Fire) - 9 Bites (1d10+5) - (10/11/10/11/10/11/10/11/10) - Getting hit 5x is better than getting hit 9x.  30GP item.  A better item would provide Hydra immunity.
Rakshasa Medium Outsider (Native) - Come on.  This is a caster.  If it did use melee attacks it would be dumb. 
Red Dragon, Juvenile Large Dragon (Fire) - Red Dragons are scary right?  Bite (16) Claw(8) Claw(9) Wing(7)Wing(8)Tail(18) So instead of taking 40HP in damage, Fighter is down 30Gp.  Then takes 26 damage for the round.  Vs a red dragon.  Seems good.
Salamander, Noble Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire) - Melee (13, 5 Fire) Melee (13, 5 Fire) Melee (13, 5 Fire) Tail (12, 4 Fire) - 30GP shield soaks 2 attacks then Fighter takes 34 damage.  Quite a bit better than taking the full 70.  You might say it buys him an extra round.
Silver Dragon, Juvenile Large Dragon (Cold) - Same stats as Brass dragon above, same result; shield would take 16 damage Fighter would take none.
White Dragon, Adult Large Dragon (Cold) - Bite (13) claw (7) claw (8) wing (6) wing (7) tail (14) - Shield saves the Fighter from taking 55 damage and breaks.  Fighter takes 0 damage but loses 30gp.  Oh noes! 48,970gp left!


Many of these monsters either have: A) Bad initiative or B) Low or no Int score or C) Both.  In all of those cases, a Tower shield is a simple item to make the Fighter not die nearly as easily.  Some of the monsters are casters, and the Fire Giant has Power Attack and sunder - so certain monsters are more effective in certain situations. 

All this is with a normal Tower shield.  A masterwork tower shield?  No.  A magical tower shield? No.  A tower shield made of cool special materials? No.  A 30gp Tower Shield.

A magical, Large Adamantine Tower shield shrugs off *everything* listed and can be repaired between fights, or magically.  If non-casters are allowed nice things, then the Hardness on the shield can get optimized all to hell and back.

This does not mean the Fighter is suddenly Tier 1 status.  But a 30GP item gives the Fighter a hell of a lot of survivability starting at level 1, and spending a FRACTION of WBL on a good shield can matter.  If Team Monster is attacking the Fighter, he is doing his job; the tower shield is what lets him "soak" without getting killed.  That's why he has Tower Shield Proficiency as a damn class feature.  If Team Monster "just ignores him" there are so many good Fighter lockdown builds to prevent that it is scary.

A Fighter with a 1 Handed reach weapon (Kusari Gama in Core), Standstill, Permanent Enlarge effect and *Large* Adamantine Tower Shield +X are all in the SRD and easily had in any campaign. This shield would have something like 22 Hardness and More than 50HP for 4000gp?  That hardly breaks the bank.  You get around not being able to make attacks if you use your Tower Shield defensively by using Readied Actions to use the Shield for cover, and attacking with AoO's BEFORE that.  Adding in more books only makes it significantly better. 

If you had to build a Straight 20 Fighter, then taking Lockdown style feats, going Dungeoncrasher, throwing shield bashing on top of that (you Wield a Heavy Steel Shield as your weapon possibly) and probably getting some Zhent Fighter in there just to give you another option all seems pretty *decent*.  But nobody I know plays "Fighter 20".  No one I game with plays "Wizard 20" or "Cleric 20" or even "Druid 20" (even though they are all perfectly FINE builds) either.  So adding in Barbarian for Rage, Pounce and Mad Foam Rager seem like good ideas.  Mad Foam Rager is pretty good btw.  Adding in ToB levels seems like a pretty standard affair.  Personally, I take 1 level of Cloistered Cleric if I can.  All these builds are primarily "melee, non-caster" instead of  "gish" or "full caster".

It's not going to bend time and space but come on, it's far better than Complete Warrior Samurai level.

20+hardness shield ignores almost all of the damage those creatures can do.  Keep in mind that if they are attacking your shield you cannot be poisoned or stunned or crit or anything else.

[ImperatorK]

An advanced Treant could probably destroy the adamantine tower shield in one full attack. >.>

[Nachofan99]

Anything that can deal 50ish damage and completely ignore hardness can as well.

As I said it's not the be all end all.  To say it's completely worthless is an outright falsehood.  But that's with *no optimization*.  I've seen some ridiculous tricks to get ludicrous amounts of hardness and HP on items.  If non-casters can have nice things, should be fairly simple and really cheap wealth wise to get your tower shield on.

[Halinn]

If non-casters can have nice things ...

They can't.