Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[Nanshork]

How does Summon Elemental Monolith work for a Paraelemental Adept?

[DonQuixote]

...oh, goddamnit.  I forgot that the paraelemental monoliths were only ever published in Dragon Magazine.  (Issue 347, if you're curious.)

So, there are two ways we could go here.

Option number one: When using the ability, you choose one of the two elements that together make up your paraelemental combination.  For example, a magma-devoted paraelemental adept could summon an earth elemental monolith or a fire elemental monolith.

Option number two: Use these.

I should really put something in the actual paraelemental adept write-up that clarifies this, but I'm torn.  On the one hand, I vastly prefer option two.  On the other, I don't like bringing in non-spellshaping homebrew, as it involves too much cross-referencing.  The entire reason that I wrote the elemental shapers was so that I could have an elemental companion that used my revised elementals.

[Nanshork]

Go with option two.  It's YOUR homebrew being referenced, anybody who has an issue with that is just plain being lazy.  In fact, make all of the Elemental Adept class features reference it, I like it!  Also, your paraelementals look way more interesting than the ones in Manual of the Planes.  In fact, ALL of the elementals look more interesting.

I swear if you don't decide you want to reference that material I'm just going to request it in the PBP I'm making an Elemental Adept for anyway.   


Side note: You've made it very very hard for me to come up with elemental circle combinations that I like.   

[DonQuixote]

I mean, you can already get elemental shapers as elemental companions, and they're basically slightly modified versions of my elemental revisions.  That, I feel, is the most important substitution...which is the entire reason I wrote up elemental shapers at all.

As far as other uses go, though...

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The problem isn't other people being lazy so much as it is me being anal retentive.  The material of Codex I is compiled into a single PDF.  As much as possible, I try to avoid non-core outside references.  The existing references to other books are, in my opinion, distasteful.  They still exist, primarily because certain spells or abilities perfectly encapsulate what I want.  I'm just not happy about them.

Referencing other homebrew--even my own--compounds this problem.  Not only is it an outside reference, it's an outside reference to a website, rather than a book.  It's been a long time since I learned MLA citation, and I really don't want to have to include hyperlinks in a PDF.

The thing is, playing a spellshaper already requires getting a decent amount of homebrew approved.  If you're playing a spellshaper that uses only Codex I material, that's 183 pages.  If you use Codex II materials, that pushes you to nearly 300 pages.  The not-at-all-Codex-III-what-are-you-talking-about materials push this even higher.

So, my personal stance will always be to use my elemental revisions.  My personal stance is to always use my elemental revisions, even if there aren't any spellshapers on the table.  However, since the elemental revisions represent a patch applied to the core rules, rather than an element of spellshaping, I'm hesitant to make them mandatory reading.

Incidentally, I've been using a magma paraelemental shaper as my companion in a campaign in which I'm currently playing.  The little guy is adorable, though has only been used in combat once, what with us spending most of our time on a ship.  He'd burn right through the deck, poor guy.  However, he has been used in a non-offensive capacity, making use of his Magma Body ability to create a trail of hardened rock (non-difficult terrain) on a sandy beach (difficult terrain) while we were attempting to run from a dragon.

[Nanshork]

If you're not going to make them mandatory, perhaps make a mention about them somewhere?  I didn't even know that you had done an Elementals Redux with a separate spellshaping option until you linked it.

I've become enamored with the Crushing Stone circle.  I just wish that I could combine it with Shocking Current without being a Fire Elemental Adept.  I actually contemplated a Magma paraelemental until I saw that it was considered a fire elemental and not earth for the purposes of class abilities.

[Nanshork]

I've noticed a discrepancy and I'm not sure if it is on purpose.

Elemental Shapers:

   Devotion (Ex): An elemental companion of an elemental adept is so devoted to its master that it gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.  In addition, the companion gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to 1/4 its master's shaper level.


Elemental Adept:

   Devotion (Ex): An elemental companion of a 3rd-level elemental adept is so devoted to its master that it gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.  This devotion also improves the elemental’s defenses, granting it an enhancement bonus to its Armor Class equal to ¼ its master’s shaper level.

[DonQuixote]

Hrm.  I'm honestly not sure how that happened.  Should I change the shapers to an enhancement bonus or the base companion to a dodge bonus?

Also, I'll think about ways to reference the elemental redux.  Not sure how to do it unobtrusively, but I'll try.

[Nanshork]

You could just make it a Web Enhancement as elemental companion rules for elemental adepts?

Also, I just realized why I had never seen the Elemental Shapers before you linked them.  They aren't in the Index.

Edit: I'm not sure which would make more sense.  Dodge bonus is easier to justify than enhancment in the long run but dodge bonus on an earth elemental seems odd.

Also, I've got a question I've been pondering.  When an elemental changes shape due to the Change Size feat do they gain the abilities of a larger sized elemental or only change stats/space/reach?

[Garryl]

If having an elemental shaper as a companion is an option for Elemental Adepts, it should be written into the class (probably as an ACF), definitely not hidden among the monster listings. I don't however, think they should be an option for the same reasons you originally were worried about (having a second spellshaping character). Even if the elemental is effectively lower level and has weaker spellshaping, and even if they lack the range on spellshape attacks (being forced to attack in melee instead of shaping at range), they're still a second set of actions, buffs (double up on major formulae), and crowd control (non-spellshape formulae are still as useful as ever), all while being about as competent a beatstick as a normal animal companion.

Either way, add those elemental shapers to the index. Spellshaping monsters for the win!

[DonQuixote]

Wow.  I can't believe that I forgot to add them to the Index.  So much egg on my face, you could make an omelette.  They've been added.

And I'm thinking you're right, Garryl.  I'm probably going to drop the elemental shapers as elemental companions, but I'm not deleting that post quite yet.  First, I'm going to bite the bullet and figure out a way to just have the elemental adept use my revised elementals...and I need some of the wording in that post for other changes that would have to be made in order to deal with that.

I think that what's going to happen is that--God help me--I'm going to add more pages to Codex I.  I absolutely hate doing this, since it's a huge pain to do, but I'm going to do it.  I'll repost the elemental revisions here, add them to Codex I, and then just tie damn well everything to them.  In doing so, I'll also be changing the baseline Devotion ability to a dodge bonus.

This is going to be a fairly large amount of work to do, so it probably won't happen until tomorrow at the earliest.

This will also address some of the weirdness with the paraelemental adept, since I'll just end up defining the paraelemental companions entirely, rather than just tying them to counting as (not entirely logical) elementals for the purposes of advancement.

On Change Size, the intention has always been to just change stats and size.  As I said, it functions as enlarge person or reduce person for all purposes not specified.  Granted, since I'm making my elemental revisions baseline, I'll have to change the feat to more closely mirror the version for elemental shapers, but you can already see how that will work by just looking at the elemental shaper version.

[Amechra]

I must ask this, with great temerity...

Is there a chance that at some point, in the distant future, that the entirety of Spellshaping will be available as a massive Tome, to plop onto a table in front of the eyes of your horrified party-mates, before they realize that it is all made of pure glory.

And lo, there would be much rejoicing.

I would do it for you, if only you would grant me the most holy access to the Word Documents of Wonder.

Hell, I could probably wrangle up some art for the purpose; maybe some nice woodcuts...

[DonQuixote]

Damn!  Someone finally asked!

So, the short answer is "Yes."  The slightly-not-as-short answer is "Yes, with unfortunate implications."

What, you want the long answer?

So, once I add my revised elementals and finish my current to-do list--which consists of one base class, racial feats for three races, feats geared specifically towards the anchorite and the savant, two prestige classes, and about sixteen monsters--a reckoning will come.  During this reckoning, I will scour my brain for anything that has been forgotten.  Any ideas that remain unwritten.

If I find that there is nothing more to write, I will then go over all the material, revising it.  The anchorite will be switched to spellshape aspects, the magic items introduced in Codex I will be changed such that they are crafted with the Craft Spellshape Items feat, and a myriad of other changes will be made.  I suspect that some existing alternative class features might be abolished or made unrecognizable during this process.  During this revision process, I'm also going to be going over spellshaping material written by other people, vetting it, and editing it for inclusion.  I'll probably try to work closely with the original creators on this one, and credit will be given on that "Credits" page that exists at the front of every codex.

Once this revision is complete, the revised materials will be combined into a single PDF:

• Chapter One - Fundamentals of Magic
• Chapter Two - Races
• Chapter Three - Base Classes
• Chapter Four - Character Options
• Chapter Five - Spellshaping
• Chapter Six - Circles and Formulae
• Chapter Seven - Prestige Classes
• Chapter Eight - Spellshape Items
• Chapter Nine - Monsters

Now, I mentioned unfortunate implications.  And such implications do, in fact, exist.  Because I'm only going to feel ready to build this monstrosity when I also feel that I am done writing spellshaping material.  So...the revised, compiled Codices of Spellshaping will really represent the entirety of spellshaping, since I may not write any more after it is complete.

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Hanako is probably laughing her ass off right now.  She's heard me declare that I've finished writing spellshaping material far too many times to count.

While I do intend for the revised, compiled Codices of Spellshaping to be the final word in spellshaping material, I also never intended to write Codex II.  Once I had written Codex II, I was convinced that it was all over, barring errata.  I told Hanako several times that I just wasn't going to write an illusion-based circle and that prismatic formulae would never happen.

So, take everything I've said with a grain of salt.

[Nanshork]

I'll wait to see what you do with the Elementals and Paraelementals.  I like the idea of Paraelementals gaining the own abilities instead of just being tied to others. 

What's the next base class you have to work on?

[DonQuixote]

Well, the elementals and paraelementals are basically going to work like their current Elemental Shaper equivalents do.  I might actually flat-out replace the Elemental Body ability with something, since my revised elementals already have a lot of those benefits as baseline abilities.  I don't yet know what, though.

In terms of the last base class idea, I haven't figured it out entirely yet, and it's actually the lowest priority item on the to-do list.  On Giant in the Playground, someone suggested a spellshaper that gains its abilities through demonic pacts or something similar.  So I want to play around with that a bit, but I haven't figured out exactly where to go.  Part of the problem is that I try to avoid alignment-restricted base classes.  It might end up being tossed, but I'm not going to decide that until I work through all the things above it.

[Nanshork]

Part of what made me choose my element for my elemental adept was the earth elemental as opposed to others that I could have gotten with a focus on Crushing Stone.  I'll wait to see what you come up with.   

[Amechra]

Do you want me to take a swing at it?

I'm thinking something kinda like Infernals from Exalted; they are essentially taught how to wield their powers through Elder Evils, but aren't policed too heavily.

Think of it less as "hurr hurr, i summon demon, make him give me stuff." and more "OK, so I fell for it that one time. Jeez."

I would have them get the ability to mess with the elemental make-up of their Spell-shape attacks, kinda like an Eldritch Blast (actually, I could just steal from there), nefarious Pact-making stuff, and finally a place for my Disintegration energy Spellshape Attack (essentially, it is untyped... and if you die from it, you are completely disintegrated.)

Also, chance for wings and tentacles and other freakish things (common, Spellshape natural attacks. You know you want them.)

Sound like a deal, friend?

(Extends a clawed, noxious smelling hand.)

[Garryl]

And I'm thinking you're right, Garryl.  I'm probably going to drop the elemental shapers as elemental companions, but I'm not deleting that post quite yet.  First, I'm going to bite the bullet and figure out a way to just have the elemental adept use my revised elementals...and I need some of the wording in that post for other changes that would have to be made in order to deal with that.

Elemental Leadership
Prerequisites: Elemental Companion, shaper level 6th
Benefits: You attract a throng of minor elementals, ready to serve you. This functions as the leadership feat, except that all followers you attract must be of the Elemental type, or be Outsiders with one of the Fire, Air, Water, or Earth subtypes. Treat Air, Earth, Fire, and Water Elementals and related paraelementals as characters of a level equal to their CR for the purpose of determining how many of them you can attract as followers.
   In addition, you can choose to attract an Elemental Shaper in place of your Elemental Companion. The Elemental Shaper functions as described below (put your big fat ACF's text here).
Special: You can benefit from only one of Leadership, Elemental Leadership, or Undead Leadership at any given time. Elemental Leadership counts as the Leadership feat for the purpose of interacting with other feats and options (including qualifying for them).
Special: You gain a +2 bonus to your leadership score for the purpose of attracting followers with the exact same elemental subtype(s) as your elemental Companion. You suffer a -2 penalty to your Leadership score for the purpose of attracting followers with elemental subtypes that oppose each of your Elemental Companion's elemental subtypes (Air opposes Earth, Fire opposes Water).

Cool, no? Probably better to split it into two feats in a chain (one for the follower elementals, then another for converting the companion to a shaper) if it's still too much, since everyone knows exactly how balanced Leadership is, right?

Well, the elementals and paraelementals are basically going to work like their current Elemental Shaper equivalents do.  I might actually flat-out replace the Elemental Body ability with something, since my revised elementals already have a lot of those benefits as baseline abilities.  I don't yet know what, though.

In terms of the last base class idea, I haven't figured it out entirely yet, and it's actually the lowest priority item on the to-do list.  On Giant in the Playground, someone suggested a spellshaper that gains its abilities through demonic pacts or something similar.  So I want to play around with that a bit, but I haven't figured out exactly where to go.  Part of the problem is that I try to avoid alignment-restricted base classes.  It might end up being tossed, but I'm not going to decide that until I work through all the things above it.

Pacts don't have to be only with demons and devils and fey. Angels, Archons, Inevitables, and Slaads (maybe not Slaads) can work just as well. Plus, see the Binder class. If that isn't alignment-free pact-making, I don't know what is.

[sirpercival]

Speaking of Spellshaping + Binding, DonQ are you going to include any of the stuff written by other people?  Or is that for a spellshaping splatbook? 

[DonQuixote]

Do you want me to take a swing at it?

I'm thinking something kinda like Infernals from Exalted; they are essentially taught how to wield their powers through Elder Evils, but aren't policed too heavily.

Think of it less as "hurr hurr, i summon demon, make him give me stuff." and more "OK, so I fell for it that one time. Jeez."

I would have them get the ability to mess with the elemental make-up of their Spell-shape attacks, kinda like an Eldritch Blast (actually, I could just steal from there), nefarious Pact-making stuff, and finally a place for my Disintegration energy Spellshape Attack (essentially, it is untyped... and if you die from it, you are completely disintegrated.)

Also, chance for wings and tentacles and other freakish things (common, Spellshape natural attacks. You know you want them.)

Sound like a deal, friend?

(Extends a clawed, noxious smelling hand.)

I'm certainly not going to stop you from taking a crack at it.  As I've said, it's pretty low on my list of priorities.  Though I would advise you to bear Garryl's thoughts in mind:

Pacts don't have to be only with demons and devils and fey. Angels, Archons, Inevitables, and Slaads (maybe not Slaads) can work just as well. Plus, see the Binder class. If that isn't alignment-free pact-making, I don't know what is.

Which really sort of clean up most of the pact-making issues.  I've also written up an angelic/fiendish companion progression for a paladin rewrite that I was planning at one point, so let me know if you want the base creature statblock and the progressions.


Speaking of Garryl...

Elemental Leadership
Prerequisites: Elemental Companion, shaper level 6th
Benefits: You attract a throng of minor elementals, ready to serve you. This functions as the leadership feat, except that all followers you attract must be of the Elemental type, or be Outsiders with one of the Fire, Air, Water, or Earth subtypes. Treat Air, Earth, Fire, and Water Elementals and related paraelementals as characters of a level equal to their CR for the purpose of determining how many of them you can attract as followers.
   In addition, you can choose to attract an Elemental Shaper in place of your Elemental Companion. The Elemental Shaper functions as described below (put your big fat ACF's text here).
Special: You can benefit from only one of Leadership, Elemental Leadership, or Undead Leadership at any given time. Elemental Leadership counts as the Leadership feat for the purpose of interacting with other feats and options (including qualifying for them).
Special: You gain a +2 bonus to your leadership score for the purpose of attracting followers with the exact same elemental subtype(s) as your elemental Companion. You suffer a -2 penalty to your Leadership score for the purpose of attracting followers with elemental subtypes that oppose each of your Elemental Companion's elemental subtypes (Air opposes Earth, Fire opposes Water).

Cool, no? Probably better to split it into two feats in a chain (one for the follower elementals, then another for converting the companion to a shaper) if it's still too much, since everyone knows exactly how balanced Leadership is, right?

Pretty damned cool, yes.  Even though I'm already planning the integration of my revised elementals into Codex I, this just screams to me as something I want to do.  I'll probably split it into two feats, though.  With some decent prerequisites.

Speaking of Spellshaping + Binding, DonQ are you going to include any of the stuff written by other people?  Or is that for a spellshaping splatbook? 

During the revision process, I'm also going to be going over spellshaping material written by other people, vetting it, and editing it for inclusion.  I'll probably try to work closely with the original creators on this one, and credit will be given on that 'Credits' page that exists at the front of every codex.

[Amechra]

Oh, don't worry, I know about all the different things that you can make a pact with...

Actually, a Slaad pact would be hilarious as hell.

Everyone else gives a thematic set of formulae, while Slaad give you...

Well, did you see my post about UTTER RANDOMNESS?

Kidding, kidding; though my write-up will have a rather unorthodox way of using Formulae (that's how I've done every single ToB base class I've ever written, and some people think that at least one of them is excellent, so...)