PrC for monk / ninja build

[Torvon]

Ello!

We are playing a thief campaign, and I decided to try a monk / ninja build.

Core of the build is the ascetic stalker feat that let's me stack a few monk (unarmed damage, ki strike class feature) & ninja (size of ki pool) powers. Unfortunately, it does not advance things like flurry of blows, but oh well.

We're starting at level 7, so I want the character to be playable by then (and only when the "build comes together" at level 15+ or so). Actually, I'm pretty happy with the build at level 7, I just don't quite know where to go from there. I am actually considering staying Ninja all the way through.

Ideas?

Build so far (standard 3.5, but we use pathfinder feat progression, 1-3-5-7-9...):

Stats (before adjustment)
Str = Wis > Dex = Con > Int > Cha

1. Ninja (Expanded Ki Pool)
2. Ninja
3. Monk (Law devotion, auto: stunning feat)
4. Monk (auto: ascetic stalker)
5. Monk (superior unarmed strike)
6. Ninja
7. Ninja (Improved natural attack)

That gives me 2d8 unarmed damage and 2d6 sneak damage. With the Monk ACF holy strike I get another 1d6 vs. evil enemies. I know the 3rd level monk is probably wasted, but I like the +10 movement and +2 saving throws (ACF, replaces still mind). Might change it later to just 2 levels of monk. Also, I'm going for the race .... wait for it .... Tortle (DR 315) ... just could not resist. And it's not that bad, either. The -2 Dex hurts, but the rest is very nice.

I saw many people recommend the "enduring ki" feat:
"By spending an extra daily use of your ki power when you activate it, the chosen effect lasts for an additional round (ki power is a class feature of the ninja; see the sidebar for details). You also gain one extra daily use of your ki power."

So, you pay 2 ki points for 2 rounds with the feat, and pay ... 2 ki points for 2 rounds without the feat. What am I missing?

So, I am looking for suggestions as to where to take this build in terms of PrC. Also, I'd be glad about suggestions for feats (not quite sure with the current build).

Thank you!
ta-ta
T.

PS: do flurry of blows and 2 weapon fighting stack? If so, how exactly?

[Raineh Daze]

Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

[Torvon]

Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

Not sure what the problem with that is. I can't ever go into a class again that was never worth taking 2 levels in the first place. Boo?

[Raineh Daze]

Oh, wait, thought you had monk listed first.

Not sure if this is pathfinder or what. Mind clarifying?

[Torvon]

Sorry, I still don't get the problem. You can multiclass INTO monk, and you can multiclass OUT of monk. The only thing you must not do it multiclass OUT of monk and then INTO monk again, right?

"A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities."

This is not pathfinder, this is standard 3.5 with a slightly different feat progression (as written above).

[Arz]

I'm a big fan of Dragon Descendant, since it brings options to monk builds. If you do take it though, best lay off the ascetic stalker. Though you don't get SA until DD3 or 8th level.

[Raineh Daze]

I thought it went Monk -> Ninja -> Monk.

As written above because you changed it. It didn't say 'standard 3.5' before. :/

[Torvon]

You misread the order of classes, then.

As for the edit: since you apparently misunderstood, I edited it to clarify. I did, however, state in the original post that we're using pathfinder feat progression.

[Raineh Daze]

Really? I'd never have guessed. It's not like I admitted my mistake. ._.

Yes, yes you did. There is nothing that I 'misunderstood', there; asking for clarification on something not specified does not equal misunderstanding.

[Torvon]

You wrote 4 posts now, and the only thing you contributed to my question was to remind me to clarify whether we're using 3.5 or pathfinder. I did as you suggested (which apparently was not enough for you), and I'd be delighted if you'd stop arguing semantics now and return to the topic.

[ksbsnowowl]

Shou Disciple isn't a bad option.  Five levels, Full BAB, two bonus feats, IIRC it gives you base unarmed damage values (topping at 2d6) (which might or might not stack with Superior Unarmed Strike), but might also specifically stack with Monk levels for such purposes.  It also allows you to use Flurry of Blows with any melee weapon (though with your unarmed base damage, you might not care for).

It does have some 3.0 wording about advancing Flurry of Blows, but the alterations from 3.0 to 3.5 mean that it does technically take a DM stamp of approval for that to come into effect.

Also has d10 HD.

The other, crazy option.  If you were cool with Psionics, you could start taking levels of Psionic Warrior, and then take Tashalatora:

Your levels in the psionic class you selected for Monastic Traning stack with your monk levels to determine your AC bonus, flurry of blows attacks, and unarmed damage from the monk class.

[linklord231]

Most builds that rely on those "partial gestalt feats" like Aesthetic Stalker or Swift Hunter don't PrC much, because it's tough to find a PrC that advances both things that the feat does.  In order for a PrC to be worth it, it would have to advance your Ki pool, your Unarmed Strike damage, and your Sudden Strike dice.  Ideally, it would also give you new things to spend your Ki Pool on, because really only Ghost Step is very good.  Ghost Walk and Greater Ki Dodge would have been nice if they came 5 levels earlier, but as it stands an Aesthetic Stalker can't even get those pre-epic. 
My advice would be to go straight Ninja until your Ki Pool is big enough that you're not running out all the time, then find a PrC that advances Unarmed Strike and Sudden Strike.  Not sure if such a PrC exists though.  Don't forget to buy Bracers of Murder (Drow of the Underdark). 

I did notice that you only have 3 monk levels.  You need 4 to qualify for Aesthetic Stalker.  Just so you know.  Also, Aesthetic Stalker specifically allows you to freely multiclass between Ninja and Monk, so the whole argument with Raineh was pointless anyway. 

[Torvon]

I did notice that you only have 3 monk levels.  You need 4 to qualify for Aesthetic Stalker.  Just so you know.  Also, Aesthetic Stalker specifically allows you to freely multiclass between Ninja and Monk, so the whole argument with Raineh was pointless anyway.

You can take Ascetic Stalker as monk bonus feat, which I currently do at level 2 in my build. Thank you for the other recommendations, very much appreciated - I agree on your analysis of the problem that you probably won't find a PrC that specifically advances 2 distinct classes that were merged using these "partial gestalt feats". So I might simply stick with Ninja.

@ksbsnowowl: Shou Disciple is ok, but nothing special and does not advance sudden strike damage. And Monk / Psy warrior is definitely a stronger character, but I kind of want to play a Monk / Ninja


PS: do flurry of blows and 2 weapon fighting stack? If so, how exactly?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

OA loosened up the Monk Multiclass rules a little.
But just a little ; hazy on the details.

[ksbsnowowl]

You can take Ascetic Stalker as monk bonus feat, which I currently do at level 2 in my build.

But you must meet the prerequisites for the feat.  You don't gain Ki Strike (Magic) until Monk 4.

Unless you are meeting that requirement some other way before you take the feat?

[Torvon]

I wasn't aware you need to meet the requirements for ascetic stalker as monk bonus feat, seeing that you also don't have to meet the requirements for the other monk bonus feats (e.g., stunning fist).

[linklord231]

I didn't realize the feat had a "Special" entry below the illustration and the giant table 
Seeing as how the feat says a Monk can choose it as a bonus feat at 1st or 2nd level, and the "bonus feat" class feature for the Monk says you don't need to meet the prereqs,  I would assume that means you can take Ascetic Stalker without meeting the prereqs as long as you choose it as a monk bonus feat.   

Flurry of Blows and TWF stack, as long as you meet the requirements of both.  So you have to be dual wielding Monk weapons (and as far as I can tell, Unarmed Strike is only 1 weapon, so you can't TWF using only your fists).  You stack the penalties normally. 
For example, an 8th level Monk with Improved Two Weapon Fighting could dual wield a quarterstaff (a double weapon that is also a special Monk weapon) and make a Flurry of Blows.  His attack sequence would look something like +3(main hand, flurry bonus)/+3(main hand)/+3(off hand)/-2(main hand iterative)/-2(off hand iterative), plus Str and other bonuses.

I just realized I've been spelling Ascetic wrong this whole time 

[Torvon]

Let's take a lvl 1 monk for easier calculation.
A normal attack would be +0
With flurry of blows, he'd attack -2(main)/-2(off)
Just using the feat two-weapon fighting, no flurry, he'd attack -2(main)/-2(off) with a light weapon (p. 160 PHB), right?

Stacking flurry and TWF would then result in -4(flurry)/-4(main)/-4(off) ?

[littha]

I am rather surprised that nobody has said unarmed swordsage yet...

Now on to actual advice on PRCs:
Shadow Sun Ninja from tome of battle, you need either a level in swordsage or two feats to get into it but its awesome on toast.
Ninja Spy from oriental adventures is also quite cool.

[Jackinthegreen]

What sources are available?  There are several feats in Dragon Mag specifically meant for ninjas.  There are also some monk ACFs you really should look at before finishing up the build since a couple of them are awesome for going into Ascetic Stalker.  Invisible Fist from Exemplars of Evil is a great ACF (and it doesn't require the character to be evil either).

Ninjas don't really get any ACFs from normal books or online stuff, but Dragon Mag has done a few (354 has the elemental variants).  http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9028.0 is the Dragon Mag ACF handbook, but I still need to go through it to fix things.

If you haven't yet, take a look through The Quintessential Ninja Handbook and The Monk Handbook to get a better idea of what the classes can do.  The ninja handbook has the Dragon Mag ninja-specific feats at the bottom.