Talking the Monster to Death (new feat)

[Prime32]

The Way of Words [Tactical]
Prerequisites: 4 ranks in any two of Diplomacy, Intimidate or Perform (oratory)
Benefit: As an attack action, you may create one of the following effects:

• Encourage: Choose one ally within 5ft per rank in Diplomacy you possess. That ally gains temporary hit points for 1 minute equal to your ranks in Diplomacy + your Cha modifier - 3 (minimum 1), and a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for 1 round. If you encourage the same ally multiple times in one round then the bonuses and temporary hit points stack, but do not stack with encouragements from previous rounds. You cannot encourage yourself.
  
• Discourage: Choose one enemy within 5ft per rank in Intimidate you possess. That enemy takes nonlethal damage equal to your ranks in Intimidate + your Cha modifier - 3 (minimum 1), and a stacking -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls for 1 round. A successful Will save halves this damage and negates the penalty (DC = 10 + half your character level + your Cha modifier). Creatures immune to nonlethal damage take lethal damage instead, but this damage cannot reduce their hit points below 1.
  

These abilities are treated as melee attacks for the purposes of abilities which involve making a melee attack (such as most martial strikes); if the target succeeds on their Will save then treat it as if the attack had missed. Your target must be able to see and hear you.
Special: A character with this feat may select feats from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain as if he had a Dexterity score equal to his Charisma score. If he does not meet the normal Dexterity prerequisite, then he gains the benefits of these feats only while using Encourage and/or Discourage as one of his weapons wielded.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a bonus feat.

[oslecamo]

This kinda makes both heroes and solo monsters obsolete unless they're blind or deaf.

The orc raider band no longer bother trying to kill you with pointy sticks. They just throw insults at you for auto-nonlethal damage regardless of your defences until you colapse. You're immune to nonlethal damage? Excellent! You're taking actual damage in that case, and then you're finished off with splash damage from an alchemical flask.

Try to piss off the townsfolk. You'll end up crying on the floor discouraged before you can do anything else. There's also no quest for taking care of that wandering angry giant. His natural and manufactured armor was no match for the villager's boos and hisses.

Also an auto-pick for martial users, because who doesn't love auto-hiting maneuvers to make sure the carrier effect always lands? With extra range added in for free.

[Threadnaught]

I agree with Osle, it is overpowered as is. You'll probably be better off basing it on one of the prerequisite Skills, DC for the check could be something like 10 + 1/2 target's HD + target's Wisdom modifier. Maybe something unique to each Skill to make it more interesting too.

Also it may be helpful to add synergy between the Skills for the checks.

[Bozwevial]

This kinda makes both heroes and solo monsters obsolete unless they're blind or deaf.

The orc raider band no longer bother trying to kill you with pointy sticks. They just throw insults at you for auto-nonlethal damage regardless of your defences until you colapse. You're immune to nonlethal damage? Excellent! You're taking actual damage in that case, and then you're finished off with splash damage from an alchemical flask.

Most roving bands of marauders aren't going to be trained in diplomacy or oration.

Try to piss off the townsfolk. You'll end up crying on the floor discouraged before you can do anything else. There's also no quest for taking care of that wandering angry giant. His natural and manufactured armor was no match for the villager's boos and hisses.

Commoners get precisely none of the prerequisites as class skills, so unless your towns are populated with super-peasants...

Also an auto-pick for martial users, because who doesn't love auto-hiting maneuvers to make sure the carrier effect always lands? With extra range added in for free.

The intent is pretty clearly that if your target makes their save, the attack is treated as though it had missed (although clarifying text to that point would be good).

That being said, the prerequisites are probably a bit too open for what it is. If you tightened those up (most tactical feats kick in at level 6 or so), added clarifying text to the attack options thing, and maybe messed with the damage a bit, it should be okay.

[oslecamo]

This kinda makes both heroes and solo monsters obsolete unless they're blind or deaf.

The orc raider band no longer bother trying to kill you with pointy sticks. They just throw insults at you for auto-nonlethal damage regardless of your defences until you colapse. You're immune to nonlethal damage? Excellent! You're taking actual damage in that case, and then you're finished off with splash damage from an alchemical flask.

Most roving bands of marauders aren't going to be trained in diplomacy or oration.

Why not? Marauders do what they have to do to get loot.

Try to piss off the townsfolk. You'll end up crying on the floor discouraged before you can do anything else. There's also no quest for taking care of that wandering angry giant. His natural and manufactured armor was no match for the villager's boos and hisses.

Commoners get precisely none of the prerequisites as class skills, so unless your towns are populated with super-peasants...

Experts make a significant part of town population, otherwise there wouldn't be a city to begin with, since commoners in overwhelming majority do not make such a place.

Also an auto-pick for martial users, because who doesn't love auto-hiting maneuvers to make sure the carrier effect always lands? With extra range added in for free.

The intent is pretty clearly that if your target makes their save, the attack is treated as though it had missed (although clarifying text to that point would be good).

Missed attacks don't deal damage. This deals damage whetever you make the save or not.

[Bozwevial]

Why not? Marauders do what they have to do to get loot.

Because then they'll all be slaughtered by someone that wanted to do actual damage?

Experts make a significant part of town population, otherwise there wouldn't be a city to begin with, since commoners in overwhelming majority do not make such a place.

And these experts will all have spent their feats on doing something likely to get them beaten to a pulp rather than something that could have brought them an actual livelihood, yes. That sounds like it makes sense.

Missed attacks don't deal damage. This deals damage whetever you make the save or not.

So does Fireball. Your point being?

[Raineh Daze]

You don't need a feat simply to make stuff, humans make up a large percentage of the population, and experts have enough skillpoints for something like this. Turn a crowd of experts into the city army. Problem solved. Armour check penalties don't matter if there's no attack roll.

[Bozwevial]

You don't need a feat simply to make stuff, humans make up a large percentage of the population, and experts have enough skillpoints for something like this. Turn a crowd of experts into the city army. Problem solved. Armour check penalties don't matter if there's no attack roll.

If you're doing that, you have a bunch of untrained experts dealing a point of damage if they get within 20 feet of something. Or you could get an actual militia that knows what it's doing and can't be mowed down by any idiot with a longbow.

[Raineh Daze]

... where are you producing a competent militia from? :O

We are assuming these are only level 1's, right? Everyone's made of glass. Later on, when the normal militia is more likely to survive, the experts are much more capable of jeering everything to death.

If you get enough, you can have the experts further back encourage those ahead of them, and those in the front row encourage whoever's to either side, and everyone gets temporary hitpoints as they shuffle forwards wearing armour they can't use but which doesn't impair their ability to insult everyone to the grave.

[Bozwevial]

... where are you producing a competent militia from? :O

We are assuming these are only level 1's, right? Everyone's made of glass. Later on, when the normal militia is more likely to survive, the experts are much more capable of jeering everything to death.

If you get enough, you can have the experts further back encourage those ahead of them, and those in the front row encourage whoever's to either side, and everyone gets temporary hitpoints as they shuffle forwards wearing armour they can't use but which doesn't impair their ability to insult everyone to the grave.

So how high level are these militia experts? Because they don't get iterative attacks until 8th level, so they can't encourage each other and still toss insults at 1st level unless they opted for the TWFing route, in which case they're still getting, what, two temporary hit points? Three, if we're generous and giving every single one the elite array. Their offense is also three hit points worth of nonlethal damage, or one if the target makes a piddling DC 12 Will save, and can only be used on targets within 20 feet. Meanwhile, one guy with a longbow can plink away at them with impunity.

[Raineh Daze]

I was explaining how they could get into range of this one guy with a longbow without all being immediately dead. And, hell, the amount of damage doesn't matter if you're talking a guy with 1d8+con HP.

[Bozwevial]

I was explaining how they could get into range of this one guy with a longbow without all being immediately dead. And, hell, the amount of damage doesn't matter if you're talking a guy with 1d8+con HP.

But they can't get in range. If they're just discouraging, that's a standard action, so they can only take a move action, which longbow guy does as well. If they're discouraging and encouraging to turtle up, that's a full-attack action, so they can only five-foot step. In neither case can they catch up with the guy.

[Raineh Daze]

Experts have 1d4 hp, +4 temporary (assuming four guys lined up directly behind them). Basically, odds are that they'll survive any one attack he makes. This is assuming he hits, because he only has a +1 to hit, and they're armoured (because talking isn't impaired by armour). So, one round buffing, next round simply moving.

Hell, 'one guy with a longbow' isn't going to be able to take down an entire group before he's mobbed.

[Bozwevial]

Experts have 1d4 hp, +4 temporary (assuming four guys lined up directly behind them).

Temporary hit points from the same effect don't stack.

Basically, odds are that they'll survive any one attack he makes. This is assuming he hits, because he only has a +1 to hit, and they're armoured (because talking isn't impaired by armour). So, one round buffing, next round simply moving.

Hell, 'one guy with a longbow' isn't going to be able to take down an entire group before he's mobbed.

What makes you think the guy with the superior range on his weapon is going to stop moving when they're moving toward him? If they don't stop moving, you don't either, and depending on your armor compared to theirs, you might be gaining some distance. At worst, you're staying out of range.

[oslecamo]

Why not? Marauders do what they have to do to get loot.

Because then they'll all be slaughtered by someone that wanted to do actual damage?

If you give the other side loads of extra cash out of nowhere, certainly.

Hint:longbows are 75 GP each, actually out of reach of most 1st level people. Arrows aren't cheap either. Words are free.

Experts make a significant part of town population, otherwise there wouldn't be a city to begin with, since commoners in overwhelming majority do not make such a place.

And these experts will all have spent their feats on doing something likely to get them beaten to a pulp rather than something that could have brought them an actual livelihood, yes. That sounds like it makes sense.

Funny, I could swear you could make money out of skills alone, and that experts had those to spare.

Missed attacks don't deal damage. This deals damage whetever you make the save or not.

So does Fireball. Your point being?

That you were trying to turn away the discussion to irrelevant stuff. And still are now, with now empty featurless plains instead of towns (that have, you know, buildings and other stuff to block line of sight while one aproaches) while granting your side massive wealth bonus out of nowhere.

Experts have 1d4 hp, +4 temporary (assuming four guys lined up directly behind them).

Temporary hit points from the same effect don't stack.

The ones from this feat specifically stack as long as done whitin 1 round.

Basically, odds are that they'll survive any one attack he makes. This is assuming he hits, because he only has a +1 to hit, and they're armoured (because talking isn't impaired by armour). So, one round buffing, next round simply moving.

Hell, 'one guy with a longbow' isn't going to be able to take down an entire group before he's mobbed.

What makes you think the guy with the superior range on his weapon is going to stop moving when they're moving toward him? If they don't stop moving, you don't either, and depending on your armor compared to theirs, you might be gaining some distance. At worst, you're staying out of range.

You really have to explain me how there's any kind of civilization in your settings when nobody aproaches any kind of closed space and they shoot even unarmed people on sight while running away. 

[Bozwevial]

If you give the other side loads of extra cash out of nowhere, certainly.

Hint:longbows are 75 GP each, actually out of reach of most 1st level people. Arrows aren't cheap either. Words are free.

But feats are not, funnily enough.

Funny, I could swear you could make money out of skills alone, and that experts had those to spare.

Then why the objection to the longbow?

That you were trying to turn away the discussion to irrelevant stuff. And still are now, with now empty featurless plains instead of towns (that have, you know, buildings and other stuff to block line of sight while one aproaches) while granting your side massive wealth bonus out of nowhere.

Who said anything about featureless plains? When you're willing to talk straight instead of putting words into my mouth, come back to this argument.

Really, the fact that you are arguing against something that can deal a paltry amount of automatic damage at close range at level 1 is laughable when I can look into your own homebrew and find something that will do exactly that.

[Raineh Daze]

Really, the fact that you are arguing against something that can deal a paltry amount of automatic damage at close range at level 1 is laughable when I can look into your own homebrew and find something that will do exactly that.

Can we just check that this, whatever it is, is something freely available to the general populace and not contingent on a particular setting or species (especially one that doesn't have hands or something)?

[Bozwevial]

Really, the fact that you are arguing against something that can deal a paltry amount of automatic damage at close range at level 1 is laughable when I can look into your own homebrew and find something that will do exactly that.

Can we just check that this, whatever it is, is something freely available to the general populace and not contingent on a particular setting or species (especially one that doesn't have hands or something)?

It's doable with a single level in Scholar.

As for the other objections, if you'd prefer, you can replace "longbow" with "sling." It's much cheaper and still has a bigger range than a bunch of first level experts using this feat. But even if they were able to catch up with someone slinging on the run and knock him out, I'm not sure what the point of this whole thought exercise is in the first place. A bunch of specially prepared level 1 NPCs with this feat can take on another level 1 NPC who doesn't have as much preparation and sometimes win? That doesn't strike me as an especially noteworthy result.

[Raineh Daze]

Having checked, this is still better. Can be used round after round (not a maneuver), scales better, slightly harder saving throw, and (importantly for this debate) actually usable by a random expert at level 1.

[oslecamo]

If you give the other side loads of extra cash out of nowhere, certainly.

Hint:longbows are 75 GP each, actually out of reach of most 1st level people. Arrows aren't cheap either. Words are free.

But feats are not, funnily enough.

Still affordable by anyone 1st level with decent skills.

Funny, I could swear you could make money out of skills alone, and that experts had those to spare.

Then why the objection to the longbow?

Why the objection to building cities, society and wanting to take prisioners alive?

That you were trying to turn away the discussion to irrelevant stuff. And still are now, with now empty featurless plains instead of towns (that have, you know, buildings and other stuff to block line of sight while one aproaches) while granting your side massive wealth bonus out of nowhere.

Who said anything about featureless plains? When you're willing to talk straight instead of putting words into my mouth, come back to this argument.

You've been arguing for several posts for shooting people more than 50 feet away. When my example was specifically in a town. That, once more, has buildings and stuff that block line of sight. Forests have trees. Mountains have rocks. Only in a featurless plain can you keep moving backward every single turn while keeping a clear line of fire.

But nice attempt at turning away the dicussion once more.

Really, the fact that you are arguing against something that can deal a paltry amount of automatic damage at close range at level 1 is laughable when I can look into your own homebrew and find something that will do exactly that.

Can we just check that this, whatever it is, is something freely available to the general populace and not contingent on a particular setting or species (especially one that doesn't have hands or something)?

It's doable with a single level in Scholar.

Your argument that 1 level=1 feat amuses me.

A bunch of specially prepared level 1 NPCs with this feat can take on another level 1 NPC who doesn't have as much preparation and sometimes win? That doesn't strike me as an especially noteworthy result.

 The noteworthy result is that this bypasses basically all defenses and allows for large groups of mooks to easily take out much higher level enemies automatically whitout need of any roll.