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So I'm messing around with a relatively tame build idea centered around the zenith/sunset strikes from Scarlet Throne on a Bushi to keep the build-centric strike up all the time. As a result I have some questions.
1) In regards to replacing the attack roll with a skill check, how much does it still behave like an attack roll, if at all? Can it still crit? Does it still auto-fail on a 1?
2) Since Zenith Strike and the like are damage multipliers, that would mean additional damage dice will not be multiplied correct? That would mean the Scarlet Throne single attack focused boosts such as Regal Blade only add their extra damage once, right? Does their bonus to the attack roll even apply, based on the wording of Zenith Strike?
3) If Zenith Strike were performed via the feat Martial Charge, would the attack made by Zenith Strike qualify as a charge attack for boosts like Bronze Lancer's Edge from Piercing Thunder or Momentum Crash from Primal Fury? What about for feats related to charging?
4) I can think of power attack/two handing, stuff like hone weapon, or getting a bigger weapon and adding weapon abilities like collision that add flat damage numbers for adding damage that would actually be relevant to the multiplier in these strikes. What other sources of damage might be specifically relevant to this build? There aren't very many boosts in particular that seem all that useful. One of the better things I could think of was using the Mithral Current's style feats to add on an additional +50% damage after the fact via vulnerability to silver and using a Celestial Mithral weapon for an additional +50% with that.
All spirit creating maneuvers have a DC since it determines the DC of the explosions.Y'know that's what I assumed when I first read it, but now that I check there are a few missing the DC if that is indeed the case:
Sweet.Couple curiosities while I was pondering this for a build.Added option to leave dagger, also made it project enough shadow to activate abilities.
-Is it possible to leave the Gloom dagger somewhere for any length of time before it reappears back in your hand aside from the brief instant it impacts (since clearly it's meant to deal damage still)? I can imagine situations where not just being able to leave it someplace for a second or longer before bringing it back to your hand would be a little annoying.
-Does the Gloom dagger cast a shadow? If so that could be funny for Gloom Master, throwing the dagger to re-position yourself and teleporting as a free action to wherever the shadows are cast in the flight path before it impacts and returns to hand to get a different angle from which you can continue your iteratives.
-Also, since you can melt the dagger into your body and have it reappear in hand, can you make it reappear in either hand? If so can you use it for Two Weapon fighting, constantly switching back and forth between primary and off-hand as a free action for each attack? That could be a really interesting fighting style to imagine, even if it's just identical to normal TWF.
However I will hold back in adding TWF synergy since I intended to fight with one dagger in one hand like the cool pic.
QuoteBut Riverside View not only has a lot of maneuvers with melee attacks, this class even goes all the way to make everything you have count as a scythe. Even with the "nerf", it's nothing short of a free maneuver recover every round, meaning it'll never run out of maneuvers, and can just spam its best one non-stop for all eternity.Very true. (it turns the weapon into a scythe, though), especially for the FV.
I'd prefer a different recovery system as well. Limiting the scythe damage to normal attack actions (rather than those done as part of a Strike or abilities like Soul Slash) (though those of an AoO would qualify) should avoid spamming.
Especially considering the attack has to deal damage instead of merely having to be done.
It could also go in a different direction. Such as recovering one or more maneuvers whenever it rolls the number 4 or 13 on a d20 roll or threaten/confirms a critical hit.
Those both seem fair with the change to full BaB. If you're more reliant on attacks now, the reliance on hitting attacks that aren't maneuvers would have arguably been a better option and somewhat in line with similar initiators. But the once per round recovery will insure that they inevitably run out over the course of the fight eventually, if they're too spam heavy or aren't landing their hits. Unexpected Ending helps with that anyway, so I think it's probably fine?QuoteIf it had a swordsage's broad selection of disciplines I could see that, but this is restricted to one school even with a fairly large number of maneuvers known and readied (though it's about on par with typical base Touhou school access). If you're making a comparison to Frostwind Virago I could maybe see it, but that class gets touch attacks on top of a school largely focused around AoE, ranged attacks, and battlefield control. Riverside View has a lot of weird supernatural stuff, but I'd say the main bent of the school is still focused around a melee warrior that still needs to connect with its attacks to land its effects (even if you can make big explosions with the right combo of spirits). Compare to Marraenoloth for instance, which still has plenty of weird magical effects sprinkled in and rocks a full BaB. You do say you have experience DMing for it though, so you tell me if it really plays that way.Toubou disciplines have plenty of variations within themselves so the usual diversity is mostly covered.
The swordsage's many maneuvers also include mostly some requiring hitting the target as well.
The FV getting a touch attack is actually a double-edged issue since you give abilities to a 'martial caster' that demand getting into melee range. A caster does not want to be within melee range (especially if the rest of its kit allows it to stay at a relatively safe distance).
I do agree that it'd be better to give it full Bab nonetheless. Though to compensate for it I nerfed Soul Slash and its effective weapon size independent of the Shinimagi's. It limits the optimization of Soul Slash and decreases the power of an ability that doesn't depend on succeeding an attack roll for the ability to have better odds of succeeding attack rolls for other stuff.QuoteEh, I guess if it's the norm anyway for these classes I don't really see a point in nerfing it. I was comparing to Marraenoloth which has to actually kill someone to recover. If you feel the nerf is warranted, once per round that way seems reasonable.I put it in after all since I personally think they should all have that limit.
Not changing it is totally fair by the paradigm of these classes, I was just whinging some more.QuoteI think I forgot that feat existed since it was buried in the back of the monster feat threads. That about solves the problem, though my distaste for the amount of feat taxing needed just to make it work with a particular playstyle is still a personal qualm. My usual group is quite fond of the characteristic variant for a reason.I'm not too fond of feat heavy playstyles either but I'm concerned with Death Scribe just becoming Malformed Mind++. It's already pretty neat. Your DM can likely allow Malformed Mind and its physical score equivalent in the Characteristic Variant list to fix the issue though I could perhaps meet halfway and give partial conversion.
If it had a swordsage's broad selection of disciplines I could see that, but this is restricted to one school even with a fairly large number of maneuvers known and readied (though it's about on par with typical base Touhou school access). If you're making a comparison to Frostwind Virago I could maybe see it, but that class gets touch attacks on top of a school largely focused around AoE, ranged attacks, and battlefield control. Riverside View has a lot of weird supernatural stuff, but I'd say the main bent of the school is still focused around a melee warrior that still needs to connect with its attacks to land its effects (even if you can make big explosions with the right combo of spirits). Compare to Marraenoloth for instance, which still has plenty of weird magical effects sprinkled in and rocks a full BaB. You do say you have experience DMing for it though, so you tell me if it really plays that way.QuoteAny reason for not just having full BaB? It's an initiator not a caster, and the monster you linked seems to have a full Base Attack for its HD.The original likely has full BaB because it is an Outsider (unless PF works differently). Otherwise, I thought the same but but I think this one is more in line with the swordsage; Death would be more focused on maneuver usage than straight combat. Kind of a martial caster.
Eh, I guess if it's the norm anyway for these classes I don't really see a point in nerfing it. I was comparing to Marraenoloth which has to actually kill someone to recover. If you feel the nerf is warranted, once per round that way seems reasonable.QuoteThe maneuver recovery might be a bit too easy. You're basically recovering a maneuver every time you hit something, so you'll be spamming maneuvers all day discounting counters and such.I based it on the Frostwind Virago and thhe Nuclear Dragon's, since monsters with innate martial talents usually have an efficient recovery system.QuoteEvery time the Frostwind Virago sucessfully damages an oponent with Icy touch, she can recover one expended maneuver gained from this class.QuoteEvery time the Nuclear Dragon successfully damages an opponent with either its bite attack or its Control Rod, he can recover one expended maneuver.I could limit it further by specifying it can only recover one maneuver per round this way or/and that it applies when it isn't done as part of a Strike maneuver. What do you think?
That's a pretty funny image, though I think the conversation from Soul Seeker might have cleared that up. It's still a good idea to move it up though I think.QuoteTongues does seem a little late. It seems relevant to getting their job done if they need to find whoever goes by the name they were given.It does indeed feel rather inappropriate, not necessarily for the targets but for the whole "HALLO. IT IS TIME TO GO." thing happens indeed quite late.
Level 5 would be cool? Nothing too interesting there anyway.
Since you removed the holding onto souls bit, yeah I'd say the limit removal is fine. Otherwise you had an incentive to hold onto souls, only to reap them when you actually needed cash.QuoteSoul Seeker seems a bit annoying since you might actually need the money from the feat to kill something, though I suppose you could just murder a commoner or whatever. It's just a bit of a hassle when the default feat might have been preferable, even if the auto acquire side quest bit is kind of neat.You're right. Probably too harsh and it wasn't meant to promote killing only for the class ability. I could change it to at least once a week though to better give the idea that you're death and not supposed to slack off when there are souls to reap, I could instead change it to losing the benefit if you spend 24 hours without reaping someone you killed.
And get it back after getting a specific target from that ability as a redeeming quest.
That or simply remove that limit.
*shrug* It seemed alright, it was just a matter of severity since plenty of other monsters have fear auras. The linked one doesn't have any basis in either of these effects though, so I suppose it comes down to whichever you prefer. The additional invisibility SLA almost seems unnecessary, but I suppose it fits your desired aesthetic. Your reasoning for the change seems sound as far as thematic concerns go.QuoteWeight of Mortality does seem like a bit much. Cowering is about as strong a fear effect as you can get, and upgrades to paralyzed later? Save or lose with no action on your part is pretty powerful. Most with a fear aura get frightened at best, even if that's not much better for the victim if you set it up properly so they can't run.Actually, I think I'll scratch it entirely. I don't think it should have a fear/death effect since the shinigami mostly reaps souls rather than actually kill stuff.
It'll be a partia incorporeality. The shinigami can walk through stuff and the higher effect has people having difficulties really seeing/remembering it is there and I'll throw in an invisibility SLA.
Aiming for the Diskworld Death.
Yeah concentration seems like a prudent way to discourage giving one's GM a headache. No need to get too finicky with it.QuoteExpiration Date seems like a massive headache for the GM. You give them a big out for whenever they would be wrong, but it's something they constantly have to think about and you can ask it for literally anyone you look at so you could easily drive them nuts with it.I DM'd myself and so far I'd say that would be rank on the annoying scale along with "I keep seeing the magical auras of everything. Describe hem all." and being able to read the minds of other characters (though I like DMing that).
I can make it something you have to focus or limit it only to the date of a natural death. For the unatural death options, the shinigami would need a special hourglass (or similar, like a special candle) artifact keyed to a specific individual to know the precise time of death (so they can be there on time to reap the soul).
I think I forgot that feat existed since it was buried in the back of the monster feat threads. That about solves the problem, though my distaste for the amount of feat taxing needed just to make it work with a particular playstyle is still a personal qualm. My usual group is quite fond of the characteristic variant for a reason.QuoteDeath Scribe seems neat, but mentions nothing about the ability score bonuses you get from the class unless that was meant to be included? Int over Cha seems pointless if your best score is bound to be Cha. Otherwise it's got a lot of neat stuff.Hm. It was originally meant to provide an early multi-classing option into the Scholar.
Honestly I think a full Int conversion of this monster class is worth two feats, as most are.
The Shinigami could simply pick this one to take care of the issue if he means to get far into the monster class:QuoteMalformed Mind [Monstrous]
Prerequisite: 1st level OR Monster Hybrid feat, upon taking the first level of a monster class, or before taking levels of a monster class.
In either case, you must choose the monster class this feat is applied to.
Benefit: Choose two Mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Whenever either of the two would be boosted by your monstrous class progression in the class you have taken this feat for, instead the other ability score is boosted.
Thanks for the input!
Threesteel is from Dragons of Faerun. Sorry, it was pretty obscure so it's probably a bad example, and it's not that different from Whirling Blade anyway. I just brought it up since it's a weird spell around the same level that I've always wanted to make work well somehow.
I don't remember the exact wording of those spells, but I believe they all need separate attack rolls before starting to deal damage, so I would classify them as non-valid, like summon monster, or wall of iron that can technically deal damage if you drop it over someone.
EDIT: Whirling blade should work. Can't find where threesteel is from.
Ok, added another clause to clear up that it's “multiple applications of the same effect” and don't stack.Dang, I'll have to find a replacement for Vampiric Touch now. Probably for the best though.
Gah, that's a lot of clauses, but I guess that's what I deserve for making a school based on channeling spells.
