Min/Max Boards

Good try through, through I'd scrutinize everything you've ever read off GitP before ever trying to use it.

You're not getting off that easily, I understand subtlety well and this pretty much reads "good try copying something off another board but you're in the big leagues now". You're simultaneously being condescending and demeaning my min-maxing by accusing me of copying it from some board that I rarely ever read.

1. It's not just a specific spell, every epic spell listed in that section that uses rituals lists them as components, it's not a mistake, rituals are obviously intended to be spell components. You can argue against it if you wish but all the evidence supports my point.

2. I don't know what you're talking about with SLA's, have you ever even read dwe's supernatural spell ability. First of all it turns it into a SU not SLA (otherwise it would allow SR and it doesn't), secondly it specifically states in plain English in the description of the ability that any spell cast as a supernatural spell no longer has any components.

Well...it also gives you turn attempts, which is a nice way to also add persisting to the class without having to give up a school of magic to incantrix (or if you just can't spare the 3 levels for whatever reason). Although, ironically, this also requires either southern magician or alternative source.

wow...I really must have invented this trick since even you are completely unaware of it.

No, all this trick requires is a 21st level character with at least 4 levels in dwe and the ability to take epic spell casting at 21st (though I'll take any suggestions that can allow pre-epic taking of the feat, but as far as I know that cityscape feat can only be taken once). I honestly don't know what you're talking about regarding epic dweomerkeepers.

Researching an epic spell and its final cost is a factor of its final spellcraft DC after mitigating factors. All you have to do is create any epic spell you can dream of, it can have a DC of a billion, it doesn't matter. Then, apply additional ritual casters to the spell until the DC is 1. Epic spells cost 9k GP per spellcraft DC and since your DC is 1, it only costs you 9k total.

Normally there would be no way to cast this spell because it requires (most likely) more casters than there are individuals in the multiverse, however, you're a dweomerkeeper, and since you can cast spells as SU spells thus eliminating their components, and since additional casters COUNT AS components for epic spells, you can now develop any epic spell you can dream of for a mere 9k a pop.

Again, illithid savants are nice and all but it still requires dweomerkeepers to exist in order to steal from them. Also it's not worth being so behind in CL for the racial HD and LA you have to give up. What's that old Caelic rule? Thou shalt not give up CL (though I guess the one is ok for dwe )

SCM is a very VERY close second imo. In terms of versatility it probably ranks higher (depending on the time scale, as a dweomerkeeper, given enough time, has access to more spells/abilities than even a SCM, that is to say, dwes have access to ALL of them), but, and correct me if I'm wrong, dwes are the only class that can pump out free I've assassins without the assistance of items.

All those twinned fusions and celerities are nice and fancy (although without favor of the martyr is arguable that only one celerity would be usable before the daze kicks in) but they are utterly useless if you don't win initiative. All you need to win any Mage battle is a successful time stop, whoever gets that off first wins.

Either way I'd rather play my SCM that uses circle magic to get her CL up to 50 something and uses her miracles to make simulacrums of pretty much anything. Moreover, due to clever usages of echoing spell, miser with magic, rapid metamagic, and meta magic reduction she effectively has unlimited spell slots.

Free ice assassins = access to any spell or ability in the game.

Supernatural spell at 21 = any epic spell you can think of creating for a measly 9k gold. This IS pun/pun mark 2. Between the infinite stats, immunity to all spells, access to every SU ability (due to ability rip; non-epic, but epic can make them last indefinitely), the only thing this doesn't achieve is the arguably TO ability of pun pun's to make up abilities (which I think is total bs and only one insane reading of manipulate form). To date there has not been another method of achieving this level of power (yeah there's a few infinite stuff out there but nothing that gets everything in one character like pun pun)...so unless I'm missing something tainted scholar/spell dancer/illithid savant have nothing on this (I suppose illithid savants can gain supernatural spell from a dweomerkeeper but it still requires the class to exist and it's still the dweomerkeeper's ability...either way, it's like 30th level by the time you can do what you can do with a standard dwe at 21st; not worth the delay). 

To actually answer pippin's original question, no, there is nothing class-oriented in the game other than dweomerkeeper that can cast a costless ice assassin. Sure, items can do it, but since everyone can purchase any item I would say that things like Candles of Invocation cannot be taken into account when comparing classes.     

Dweomerkeeper is undoubtably the most powerful prestige class in the game (yes, ignoring thrallherds getting a dweomerkeeper as a thrall, because then it still involves dweomerkeepers) and really should have it's own tier (+3) because of how ridiculously broken it is.

If we ignore Ice Assassin, then dweomerkeeper loses some (but not all) of its power, since dweomerkeepers, once they hit epic, can develop any epic spell in the game (infinite stats, etc...yes this is basically another way to get pun pun without manipulate form (maybe the only other way) that I've never seen anyone talk about (as far as I know I invented it), albeit at a higher level) for 9k gold and cast it for free. So yes, because of a single prestige class wizards are unquestionably more powerful (again barring items).

EDIT: AMF is a fixed range spell...what has stopped us from slapping Reach Spell on it and dropping one with a high CL on the TBoS, by the way?  AMF his ass then nuke with Spell Matrix/Arcane Fusion Macross Missle Massacre of Lesser Orbs?

Don't we need Abj Master Specialist for casting AMFs on others?

The "10^100" challenge is more of a joke than anything. Immunity or the ability to totally avoid the need to even use a statistic isn't even taken into account in the system even through it's superior in every way.

Obviously that's the case, immunities are always better and it's how I always operated from day 1. The point is that it's still an exercise in technical skill though. Optimizing within constraints still requires you to think outside the box. Honestly, these days, it's the only joy I can derive from the system anymore; since having completely mastered it.

Oh, I haven't looked at the thing in forever so I forgot.         

Edit: yeah, going back and looking at it it's far simpler than I remembered. I thought it required you to be able to pass these checks an unlimited number of times per day, or required you to have +100 to all skill checks, saves, etc.

Well I can certainly do it at 20th with thrallherd, as you well know. Otherwise, the only other original way I can think of beating all 3 is at 21st level. Unless of course you can get primary contact twice somehow without fusioning thralls, or if you know of some other way to get epic spell casting prior to 21st level that doesn't involve psionics.   

In any case TBoS was never the issue for me. It's the 10^100 part that gets me.

I thought you were referring to my sig char by the same name which is a thrallherd fusion abuse build. He gets 9th level spells at the same lvl as everyone else.

For me the choice of what discipline to choose is normally based on which discipline has the most must-have powers in order to minimize the amount of expanded knowledge feats I take. Typically this is telepath (schism, dominate, mind probe) or egoist (metamorphosis/greater, revivify, restoration, fission). Also, even if you assume every major enemy will have immunity to mind-affecting it doesn't stop those powers from being very useful in non-combat situations. Your average NPC isn't going to be able to resist your suggestions/dominates/charms, and you can get a lot done by influencing politically or socially important NPCs that are not powerful in other ways.