[3.5, TO] About Psions being more broken than Wizards

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Another thing Psi falls behind on, is PrCs.
Only if you accept the highest powered
definition of Magic Mantle, can you get on
over to all the juicy PrCs that Wizards take.
And you're still starting with a weaker base,
down a class feature and a feat slot or two.

[SorO_Lost]

@Pippin, who said I cared enough to change your mind. I mean really, your very half-assed rebuttal was addressed in my post before you even said it afterwards, you didn't read my post or the better debates that debunked it years ago. It's impossible to change your mind because you never gave a crap to begin with. And I can't imagine why you think I'd try to make you my friend either.

Either way, once you hit 21 there's no denying the dweomerkeeper is king, no other class can get free epic spells like that, items or no.

Well the Dweomerkeeper has no ability to research an Epic Spell for free so I think you're implying you'll take Supernatural Spell to learn a single Epic Spell for free. But officially Complete Divine's Web Enhancement only updated the Dweomerkeeper, not the Epic Dweomerkeeper so you're off in the area of needing a DM to expand the class, if it can even work with Epic Spells technically do not use numbered Spell Slots to cast out of, and needing a pass to ignore unupdated 3.0 content that has something to say on the matter.

Either way, the Epic Mage of the Arcane Order can access any Epic Spell from the Spellpool. And the Epic Illithid Savant's wording on learning Epic Spells seems to apply any time he consumes the brain of another Epic Spellcaster rather than having to use one of his Acquire Class Feature abilities. So even if your assumed houserules were a go on the table top, the Keeper is still two PrCs behind even if you hate stealing (but it's literately what the class does) and Leadership for Rituals & 0 DC Spells still beats all of them.

Another thing Psi falls behind on, is PrCs.

And that is the only weakness of Psionics, splat support and like half it's PrCs are not full-manifesters.

But then again it's hard to really beat a StP Erudite. I mean look at the current discussion, it's pretty much come down to a Wizard needs to dip Cleric and enter Dweomerkeeper for what amounts to a more legitimate claim on ignoring XP costs because the potential of Ice Assassin. And so we've moved on to talking which PrC is the best (darklight wizard!) and how SorO has some deep lonely issues that makes him want to be everyone's friend on here. Hug me!

[Pippin]

I was not exactly trying to make you my friend (I'm not really looking for friends on the Internet), I was just sad to see how you interact with people, and I thought that all the tension your were generating might make you unhappy (besides the others, obviously). If I was thinking wrong and if your behavior actually makes you content with your social life, which I doubt but won't argue, then please accept my apologies.

And no, Wizards can go Dweomerkeeper without any class dip, thank you.

[SorO_Lost]

and I thought that all the tension your were generating might make you unhappy (besides the others, obviously).

Not really, I mean I have buttons like everyone else but I have a forgetful nature. I do use Internet arguments to relive personal stress but that's not really a secret.

That being said if the next words in your post are Southern Magician I'd consider buying you a dendrocnide moroides for you to carry around.

[Azrael]

wow...I really must have invented this trick since even you are completely unaware of it.

No, all this trick requires is a 21st level character with at least 4 levels in dwe and the ability to take epic spell casting at 21st (though I'll take any suggestions that can allow pre-epic taking of the feat, but as far as I know that cityscape feat can only be taken once). I honestly don't know what you're talking about regarding epic dweomerkeepers.

Researching an epic spell and its final cost is a factor of its final spellcraft DC after mitigating factors. All you have to do is create any epic spell you can dream of, it can have a DC of a billion, it doesn't matter. Then, apply additional ritual casters to the spell until the DC is 1. Epic spells cost 9k GP per spellcraft DC and since your DC is 1, it only costs you 9k total.

Normally there would be no way to cast this spell because it requires (most likely) more casters than there are individuals in the multiverse, however, you're a dweomerkeeper, and since you can cast spells as SU spells thus eliminating their components, and since additional casters COUNT AS components for epic spells, you can now develop any epic spell you can dream of for a mere 9k a pop.

Again, illithid savants are nice and all but it still requires dweomerkeepers to exist in order to steal from them. Also it's not worth being so behind in CL for the racial HD and LA you have to give up. What's that old Caelic rule? Thou shalt not give up CL (though I guess the one is ok for dwe )

[Pippin]

Oh you don't need Southern Magician, just find a friend with Imbue with Spell Ability. That's the trick I was told on GitP forums.

[Azrael]

Oh you don't need Southern Magician, just find a friend with Imbue with Spell Ability. That's the trick I was told on GitP forums.

Honestly, in many cases I'd rather lose the CL to cloistered cleric than lose the feat to SM. Just that one level dip gives you tons of bonus feats/domain feat trade-ins. If you're thinking of persisting buffs with the character (through whatever means) planning domain gives you extend spell for free.

[Pippin]

Oh you don't need Southern Magician, just find a friend with Imbue with Spell Ability. That's the trick I was told on GitP forums.

Honestly, in many cases I'd rather lose the CL to cloistered cleric than lose the feat to SM. Just that one level dip gives you tons of bonus feats/domain feat trade-ins. If you're thinking of persisting buffs with the character (through whatever means) planning domain gives you extend spell for free.

If you want 1 domain, take 1 level in Rainbow Servant and buy a wand of Substitute Domain.
If you want 2 domains, take 4 levels in Rainbow Servant and buy a wand of Substitute Domain.

In any case, you never need a class dip.

[Azrael]

Well...it also gives you turn attempts, which is a nice way to also add persisting to the class without having to give up a school of magic to incantrix (or if you just can't spare the 3 levels for whatever reason). Although, ironically, this also requires either southern magician or alternative source.

[SorO_Lost]

wow...I really must have invented this trick since even you are completely unaware of it.

No, I thought you were going somewhere else, like how you can create an infinite damage loop that when passed through Sadism gives you an infinite bonus to your next Spellcraft Check. Also Additional Participants states you need contributing participates or the Spell fails and they are not a Focus or Material Component so it doesn't even work like that anyway. Good try through, through I'd scrutinize everything you've ever read off GitP before ever trying to use it.

And also, I'd like to take a moment and leave something here.

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SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they’re described.
No verbal, somatic, or material components are required to use a spell-like ability, nor does using one require a focus or have an experience point cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. If a spell-like ability can be used at will, it has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted.
If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than 1 standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. It’s possible to use a spell-like ability defensively by making a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check fails, the ability fails to go off, but the attempt counts against the ability’s use limit.
Spell-like abilities are subject to being dispelled by dispel magic and to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates is subject to spell resistance. They don’t function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated, such as in an antimagic field. Spell-like abilities can’t be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
For creatures that have spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects. This caster level also defines any level-dependent variables, such as range and duration. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character must have to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question isn’t a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

See the nice text?

SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES
Supernatural abilities are magical. They don’t function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated, such as in an antimagic field. However, these abilities can’t be disrupted in combat, as spells can. Supernatural abilities aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.
Just like spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities might have a use limit or be usable at will. A supernatural ability takes a standard action to use unless otherwise noted in the ability description. Using a supernatural ability doesn’t usually provoke attacks of opportunity. They never require Concentration checks.
Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.

And then the total lack of it?

EXPERIENCE POINT
Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost, and such spells have XP on their Components line. No spell can restore experience points spent in this manner. You can’t spend so many experience points that you lose a level, so you can’t cast the spell unless you have enough experience points to spare. However, you can, on gaining enough experience to attain a new level, use those experience points for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. Experience points are treated just like a material component—they are expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.

Remember that quantitative point from before that cited Powerful Build & Precarious Apprentice as examples? If you read the full entry instead of partial quoting it, XP Costs are like Material Components only in regards that they are expended as part of casting the spell, regardless of failure or not, rather than XP costs are a Material Component (which has it's own separate entry).

The very concept that the Keeper can even cast a Spell XP Free already exists in a TO form of bad reading. It's a double standard to knock one Class/PrC's effectiveness because it relies on something theoretically happening in game while discussing something that doesn't even work if you actually follow the message given.

[Pippin]

Well...it also gives you turn attempts, which is a nice way to also add persisting to the class without having to give up a school of magic to incantrix (or if you just can't spare the 3 levels for whatever reason). Although, ironically, this also requires either southern magician or alternative source.

That would require 2 metamagic feats, in addition to the class dip, though. Luckily you don't have to do this stuff yourself: why not just charm, or create a copy of an Incantatrix? :v

[SorO_Lost]

Well...it also gives you turn attempts, which is a nice way to also add persisting to the class without having to give up a school of magic to incantrix (or if you just can't spare the 3 levels for whatever reason). Although, ironically, this also requires either southern magician or alternative source.

Never looked up Alternative Source, because finding pdfs of Dragon Magazine is next to impossible, but Southern Magician does not work like that. And as of almost seven and a half years ago I don't even have to front an argument anymore.

Can a wizard with the Southern Magician feat qualify for prestige classes that require you to be able to cast a divine spell?
The Southern Magician feat does not allow you to cast divine spells per se. It only allows you to change the spells into divine spells once they have been cast. Thus, you won’t qualify for prestige classes that require you to be able to cast a divine spell. The Southern Magician feat only gives the bonuses specifically listed in the feat’s description.

The Official Rules simply state as much.

For reference: "The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation. You are merely weaving the strands of magic together in an unconventional way that makes the spell behave somewhat differently." ~Southern Magician.

[Maelphaxerazz]

Never looked up Alternative Source, because finding pdfs of Dragon Magazine is next to impossible

Depends on where you look.

[SorO_Lost]

Yeaheee!

Got the rest like that? I can't download torrents *cough* Board policy requires me to not to ask that.

Edit - So it looks like Alternative Spell Source can be used to meet Spell-specific requirements which is pretty interesting. But remember even a Warlock can fulfill CL/Spell requirements but fails to meet the more general Spellcasting requirements so by example just because your Wizard can dip Cleric and cast a Divine Fireball doesn't mean he can enter all divine PrCs or that +1 to a divine-casting Class applies to his Wizard levels.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

... able to cast a divine spell?[/b]
.. not allow you to cast divine spells per se. ... change the spells into divine spells

Cast vs "cast as" wow that's some hair-splitting. It's there. Don't get me wrong, but that's like electron microscope cutting right there. Why? Because that's taking a probably figurative meaning literally, and that meaning you would also have a really hard time saying elegantly in another way.

Let's say you wanted to do something so that it was something else in every way. A native English speaker would just say "okay, you can do x like it is y," which is equivalent to "you do x as y."

Notice that the above is exactly what southern magician says. I'm still open to easier ways to say the above differently, but for now it seems like the hair-splitting interpretation is just that, an interpretation. And it doesn't feel like an honest one at that. I'd still use it in my games, but that's not the point.

(click to show/hide)

I encourage DMs to outright discriminate based off of power level: ie an unoptimal non-pouncing caster-focused UE shadowlord would be fine with (double) advancing an arcane progression off of a (theurge) divine PrC, but a wizard wouldn't. 3rd < 8th or 9th level spells.

[SorO_Lost]

Cast vs "cast as" wow that's some hair-splitting.

Eh, it helps to understand the rule base. Cast is a catch all word, like a Wizard, Warlock, Cleric, and Artificer can all cast Shatter and so can anyone with a scroll & UMD check.

The rules when it comes to requirements attempts to differentiate the end result vs the actual ability. Think of it like a DUI (driving while intoxicated) is actually called an OWI (operating while intoxicated) and you can get a OWI without actually driving your car because starting procedures, ie starting the engine, is still against the law.

So for instance, according to Complete Arcane's entry on Spellcaster related Requirements, the Warlock's ability to produce an Arcane-based Earthen Grasp SLA counts as a Spell for the purposes of the Warlock meeting a Requirement that asks if you can cast the Earthen Grasp Spell. It also contains a Spellcasting level entry that in turn says the Warlock cannot meet any "Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells" Requirement. And if you equal the usage of "cast" to be the same then I just broke your mind again.

It's because if you crunch the fluff down you literally need levels in a Class that grants Spellcasting to meet a "Able to cast 3rd-level spells" type of Requirement and not simply produce the end result in some way. And while the entry is geared towards Warlocks/SLAs it really is an observed rule of thumb applied to everyone else. Like the Rogue with a Scroll really doesn't pick up the right to advance Incantatrix. So again, while the word cast is universally used, there is a prime difference in how you cast a Spell.

Like if you read the Wizard Spellcasting stuff in the PHB, a Wizard partially casts all of his Spells during preparation. Then he later casts them again. Unless Spell failed, then he loses his Prepared Spell because it was cast but since nothing ever happened he never really cast a Spell to anyone else.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

according to Complete Arcane's entry on Spellcaster related Requirements

And while the entry is geared towards Warlocks/SLAs it really is an observed rule of thumb applied to everyone else. Like the Rogue with a Scroll really doesn't pick up the right to advance Incantatrix.

Rule of thumb eh?

Yes CArc's warlock stuff is very specific. I believe there were other, different reasons (pre CArc) why rogues couldn't qualify for prereq's that way. So while I agree that your reasoning is a valid interpretation, not everyone is going to follow you there.

[SorO_Lost]

In any case Southern Magician flat out says the power source doesn't change nor does preparation (see also a wizard partially casts his spells during preparation) and the official rules have nixed it.

To be honestly fair through, Anyspell allows a Cleric to prepare and cast an Arcane Spell Like a Wizard. Unlike Southern Magician there is no stopper text, no FAQ ruling, it covers preparation, literately says as a Wizard, etc. If you were out to push some kind of cross-class TO that ignores CAr, fighting against the FAQ is just a needless waste of everyone's time. Plus Alternative Power Source nearly does the same. It'd be far easier to use something that has less rebuttals against it.

[Azrael]

No, I thought you were going somewhere else, like how you can create an infinite damage loop that when passed through Sadism gives you an infinite bonus to your next Spellcraft Check. Also Additional Participants states you need contributing participates or the Spell fails and they are not a Focus or Material Component so it doesn't even work like that anyway. Good try through, through I'd scrutinize everything you've ever read off GitP before ever trying to use it.

Oh how wrong you are...

Check out verdigris tsunami in the epic level handbook pg. 88. Look at the components section of the spell, and see how it says ritual? That means ritual is a component. And as we all know, using the dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell on a spell eliminates all of its components.

So it looks like I did indeed invent this little trick. Funny how, even after over a decade, you can still find new things 

Guess I should go post this little trick in "you break it..."

Also (and as pippin and many MANY others have pointed out before me) I really don't appreciate your condescending attitude towards me. "Copied shit off gitp" don't make me fucking laugh, I'm full of originality and this is just one of the many things that I came up with on my own.

I've been a member of these boards (bg) long before you arrived (I think I joined sometime in 03) and just because I lurk more often than I post does NOT mean I am not on the same level of knowledge as you in terms of min-maxing. Your arrogant holier-than-thou attitude really pisses me off and only serves to isolate you and make you come off as a jerk (which I'm sure you are). This is the second time we've butted heads on this board and it's the second time I've wiped the floor with you, your arrogance is unwarranted.

[SorO_Lost]

Check out verdigris tsunami in the epic level handbook pg. 88.

Why would I check a Specific Spell for the rules of Rituals? That'd be like checking Ray's Arcane Conversion for the rules of a Wizard's Spellcasting.

Besides, SLA doesn't say they don't have any components. It says a spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. Alternative Components - Such as abstinence, level loss, and ability damage found in Sanctified or having to be a Devil or under the effects of certain Drugs for certain Corrupt Spells - are not included. And surprise, neither are Epic Rituals.

And the rest of your post, honestly you just need to look in the mirror. You're coming off half cocked, declaring victory, and insulting people. If you need a great example of an arrogant holier-than-thou attitude, look no further than your self.