Druid6 vs Wizard6

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

One of my friends is convincing me that, at least for the first 6 levels, a Druid will usually outdo a Wizard.  (This is a normal game over 20 levels, not E6.)  Mind you, a Druid can't do everything a Wizard can, but brings up some good points.

This comparison ignores PrCs.

Compared to a Wizard, a Druid gets:
+More HP
+1 additional good save
+An animal companion (compared to a familiar)
+Full knowledge of his spell list
+Spot and Listen as class skills
+More stealth options due to an animal companion and Wild Shape.  (Wild Shape lasts as long as alter self and doesn't take spell slots.)
+Healing (self and party) via cure and vigor spells.  A Wizard can use repair damage... if he's a Warforged or Construct.
+Inherent spontaneous casting (summon nature's ally spells)
+Stronger summons due to Greenbound Summoning and Ashbound
+Into his stride faster.  A Druid is likely strong into his groove at level 6 while a Wizard needs to wait another level or 3 for level 4 or 5 spells.
+Better access to melee abilities.  Sure, Wizards can grapple, but they have to really specialize for it at this level.  (Proof.)

=More base skill points, but probably fewer skill points overall due to a Druid pumping WIS and a Wizard pumping INT
=No [Teleport] abilities I know of, but can burrow and swim and fly!
=STR, DEX, and CON that are form-dependent.  Usually these are better than your base form.

-Fewer bonus feats.  (If you account for PrCs, these feats are likely already spent on prereqs.)
-No Abrupt Jaunt/Rapid Summoning
-Generally, fewer Knowledge skills maxed
-A generally worse spell list when it comes to crowd control and 3D movement.  (A Wizard's spell list is, in general, superior for crowd control and 3D movement.)  Entangle and briar web (Spell Compendium 39) are useful but likely to hit your party, and both require existing vegetation.  A Wizard gets levitate while a Druid gets master air (Spell Compendium139).

[Lo77o]

What does this have to do with min maxing?

[ketaro]

=No [Teleport] abilities I know of, but can burrow and swim and fly!

Um, off the top of my head, Druids get a spell that lets them teleport using trees. Tree Stride I think. It even lasts hours per level so you can move through multiple trees, but I guess it doesn't let you bring other people.

Edit: Oh, and Transport via Plants which lets you bring other people and has unlimited distance. 6th level spell.

[Rebel7284]

What does this have to do with min maxing?

What did all the fighter vs. wizard threads?

Some notes: Alter Self lasts 10 min/level, so 1 hour.  Wildshape is 1 hour/level so 6 hours....

Overall, I agree with the analysis.  While everything is situational, I feel that druid is a better class in the early levels.  Also another difference is that Druids always have access to the whole spell list, while in the early levels, considering the high cost of scribing spells, a wizard may be more limited.

[Empirate]

The comparison really, really depends on party roles chosen. Classes don't exist in a vacuum. Druids CAN do a lot of different things, but at the low levels, what are they gonna do most of the time? Buff a bit, heal a bit (yes, even still using actual spell slots at level 6), BC a bit, scout a bit, and bring a friend a bit. But can they memorize a bunch of potentially encounter-ending spells similar to Glitterdust? I feel like at the early levels, Druids are called upon to do a lot of things, and don't much excel at any of these yet.

[Rebel7284]

But can they memorize a bunch of potentially encounter-ending spells similar to Glitterdust?

Sure, why not?

Frost Breath, Kelpstrand.

[Empirate]

Frost Breath is hardly encounter-ending, the daze effect only lasts for a round, and the damage is inconsequential. Good spell? Sure. I-win-button? Nope.
Kelpstrand, though... I'd forgotten about that one. Funny, was just recently statting out a Druid 6 villain for my E6 campaign and actually gave her Kelpstrand.

[zook1shoe]

Yeah, it really depends on the optimization of the group. A wizard typically doesn't take 6 wiz levels, they prestige out. Where the druid can also, but doesn't need to.

so maybe a dozen encounter ending druid spells vs the wizard's 100+

another factor, besides party role, is source availability. The more sources, the more a wizard tends to overpower a druid, typically.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's possibly my favorite druid spell, but Kelpstrand is flipping terrible at first.  The bonus isn't at all high yet, you only have one or two strands, and the second a check fails, you lose that strand.  Not sure why it was even brought up in a level 6 discussion.

Kelpstrand is good because it scales so well as you level, benefiting both for CL *and* BAB, and thanks to no save/SR, remains a worthwhile attack spell option at those higher levels.  While still also being so low level that you don't even need level reducing shenanigans to use it quickened.

Lower level druid is much better off using blinding spittle or something instead.

[ketaro]

I got Blinding Spittle banned from all games run by one of my DMs because I blinded an adult dragon with it at level 3.

I enjoy that spell.

[Bauglir]

I got Blinding Spittle banned from all games run by one of my DMs because I blinded an adult dragon with it at level 3.

I enjoy that spell.

I banned Blinding Spittle for reasons. Though if I ever run a game again, maybe I'll just bump the spell level or something instead of flat-out banning.

[shriekingdrake]

I think the druid has the advantage until level 11 or 12.  At level 6, I don't think it's a close call.  Druids are significantly more versatile.  In the end, the wizard will out perform the druid, but only in the latter half of the character evolution. 

[Endarire]

What significant effects can a Wizard eventually do that a Druid can't?  Mind you, with PrCs open for Wizards and Druids starting at level 6 (which I've seen as standard), a Druid can eventually dip Contemplative (Complete Divine) and get access to a Cleric domain, such as Travel (go, go teleport!) or Spell (go, go anyspell or greater anyspell!) or Balance (go, go Sacred Exorcist for Divine Metamagic!).

Wizards... generally don't expand their wonderful spell list, and Wizard PrCs are usually about boosting what they do well (casting spells, natch.)  The Incantatrix is the quintessential Wizard PrC because it basically lets Wizards do what they want to do:  Cast metamagicked spells more easily and cheaply and even spontaneously!

[OblivionSmurf83]

What significant effects can a Wizard eventually do that a Druid can't?  Mind you, with PrCs open for Wizards and Druids starting at level 6 (which I've seen as standard), a Druid can eventually dip Contemplative (Complete Divine) and get access to a Cleric domain, such as Travel (go, go teleport!) or Spell (go, go anyspell or greater anyspell!) or Balance (go, go Sacred Exorcist for Divine Metamagic!).

Don't forget that, RAW, Anyspell requires a domain slot.

[Rebel7284]

What significant effects can a Wizard eventually do that a Druid can't?  Mind you, with PrCs open for Wizards and Druids starting at level 6 (which I've seen as standard), a Druid can eventually dip Contemplative (Complete Divine) and get access to a Cleric domain, such as Travel (go, go teleport!) or Spell (go, go anyspell or greater anyspell!) or Balance (go, go Sacred Exorcist for Divine Metamagic!).

Don't forget that, RAW, Anyspell requires a domain slot.

A dip into Holt Warden [Complete Champion] solves that issue and has the perfect flavor for a Druid.  To be fair, dipping too much does have a bigger opportunity cost for a druid than a wizard.

[zook1shoe]

The Druid has no easy answer for the Streamers spell, esp w some crazy metamagic feats (Fell Drain or Born of Three Thunders by way of energy change + Snowcasting) or even a Magic Missile w Born of Three thunders gained the same way.

[Rebel7284]

The Druid has no easy answer for the Streamers spell, esp w some crazy metamagic feats (Fell Drain or Born of Three Thunders by way of energy change + Snowcasting) or even a Magic Missile w Born of Three thunders gained the same way.

a) We are talking about low levels, Streamers is level 5. 

b) As for answers to Streamers: Monk's Belt + a few other ways to pump touch AC.  They're attacking with the wizard's BAB and no other bonuses?  Also any source of free attacks removes them and they only have 20 AC.  (Have your animal companion eat them.)

c) Magic Missile needs to gain an energy descriptor first before you can turn it into a born of the three thunders spell.  Also, unless you can jump through multiple hoops to become immune to daze, BotTT is a very risky ability to use.  Most of those hoops are again HIGHER LEVEL.

[Gazzien]

The Druid has no easy answer for the Streamers spell, esp w some crazy metamagic feats (Fell Drain or Born of Three Thunders by way of energy change + Snowcasting) or even a Magic Missile w Born of Three thunders gained the same way.

a) We are talking about low levels, Streamers is level 5. 

b) As for answers to Streamers: Monk's Belt + a few other ways to pump touch AC.  They're attacking with the wizard's BAB and no other bonuses?  Also any source of free attacks removes them and they only have 20 AC.  (Have your animal companion eat them.)

c) Magic Missile needs to gain an energy descriptor first before you can turn it into a born of the three thunders spell.  Also, unless you can jump through multiple hoops to become immune to daze, BotTT is a very risky ability to use.  Most of those hoops are again HIGHER LEVEL.

As for C; snowcasting + energy sub gets you any spell for BotTT... first [cold], then whatever you wanted. Right?

Also, for immunity to daze at low levels:
[Feat] - Mark of the Dauntless; blanket immunity.
[Feat] - Quick Recovery; get a save, even if you wouldn't normally.
[Item] - Third Eye Clarity; once per day for 3,000gp.

Dauntless is, of course, the best route; a two-feat tax for complete immunity to both Daze and Stun, as well as whatever Dragonmark benefits you want. You do have to be a dragonmarked race - did someone say humans? or (strongheart) halflings? - though.

[zook1shoe]

Shriekingdrake mentioned 11-12, so what's 9th? Ambient Tempest can get it at 7th 8th level

I said no easy ways. Of course everything either does has some sort of way to negate it.

I guess its like apples and oranges.

[Gazzien]

-shrug- Daze immunity seemed easy to me, so I pointed it out. Nevermind~