Tanuki

[Anomander]

Finished the Tanuki Hero and Soothsayer prcs and added a few more Master of Mischief options.
Next is probably the Taninjuki or the Bakedanuki. Maybe quickly followed by the Kamidanuki.

[oslecamo]

Leaf Blower-Due to the way shurikens count as weapons, free enanchment bonus is extremely abuseable, like spell storing and low-use abilities. You should limit it to a specific list of enanchments.

Super Leaf-"It counts as weightless whenever it is to its benefit" is so prone to ridiculous readings that it stopped being funny. The other parts of the ability are more than enough.

Major Objection- At will 5th level spell that normally takes 10 minutes now as a standard action? At 3rd character level? What are you drinking? Even if your opponent had a realistic chance of beating the Disguise check you pumped to heavens, this is still insane.

Primal Raccoon Spirit-Oh, spellstoring stones that deal higher damage than any other weapon in the game. Because what casters need is ways to pump out one spell per 4 HD in the same round.

Tanuki Hero
-See comments on spellstoring leaves.
-4th character level and you're already gaining an ability that scales into a save-or-die against which 99% of creatures are powerless. Could we at least get a duration on the polymorph duration?
-And capstone is "Don't die when you're killed", at 9th character level.  You're not even in double digits levels and you're shrugging off the explosion of the universe. Multiple times per day.

Will reserve criticism on the other prcs while the above isn't adressed.

[Anomander]

Leaf Blower
They are meant to function as a single weapon, so you do not get multiple uses of an ability per leaf.

Super Leaf
Agreed. Will clarify.

Major Objection
Maybe I should think longer on how doing a  3 cu. ft. item of mineral/vegetable matter once per day can be insane as a standard action.
Pumping the Disguise at third level isn't that simple but I'll have the duration reduction scale with or apply a Disguise check penalty per step reduced.

Primal Raccoon Spirit
Alright.

Tanuki Hero

4th character level and you're already gaining an ability that scales into a save-or-die against which 99% of creatures are powerless. Could we at least get a duration on the polymorph duration?

I thought I wrote that. o_O. Its 1 round, same as the stun.

And capstone is "Don't die when you're killed", at 9th character level.  You're not even in double digits levels and you're shrugging off the explosion of the universe. Multiple times per day.

10th level, actually. For what that changes.
If it gets into more than one Tanuki prc, it can do this ability once at level 10, a second time at level 13, a third time at level 18-19.
I can have it scale to an auto-rez at 1 HP after 1d4 rounds, then auto-rez at half HP the next turn, then full HP on the next turn. Each once per day and only the invincibility would get multiple possible uses with the action require scaling, fullround action, then standard, move, swift and maybe free at about 25 HD in the epic levels.

Thanks.

[dmanus]

  Wow. These tanuki classes are hilarious. Great job, Anomander. 

[oslecamo]

Leaf Blower
They are meant to function as a single weapon, so you do not get multiple uses of an ability per leaf.

Well, that wording isn't very clear at all. If they're a single weapon, how can you throw them one at a time? Since when does a single weapon can have multiple targets? Can you abuse the hell out of it with other effects that give super buffs to a single weapon?

Major Objection
Maybe I should think longer on how doing a  3 cu. ft. item of mineral/vegetable matter once per day can be insane as a standard action.
Pumping the Disguise at third level isn't that simple but I'll have the duration reduction scale with or apply a Disguise check penalty per step reduced.

Ah, my bad, the way I readed it, it seemed like it as an at-will ability. New free action rules probably makes it still a bit insane, but whitin acceptable parameters since you can't just spam it all day long.

Tanuki Hero

4th character level and you're already gaining an ability that scales into a save-or-die against which 99% of creatures are powerless. Could we at least get a duration on the polymorph duration?

I thought I wrote that. o_O. Its 1 round, same as the stun.

Very well.

And capstone is "Don't die when you're killed", at 9th character level.  You're not even in double digits levels and you're shrugging off the explosion of the universe. Multiple times per day.

10th level, actually. For what that changes.
If it gets into more than one Tanuki prc, it can do this ability once at level 10, a second time at level 13, a third time at level 18-19.
I can have it scale to an auto-rez at 1 HP after 1d4 rounds, then auto-rez at half HP the next turn, then full HP on the next turn. Each once per day and only the invincibility would get multiple possible uses with the action require scaling, fullround action, then standard, move, swift and maybe free at about 25 HD in the epic levels.

Yeah, not coming back at full HP sounds sounds a much better plan. But enough free actions I believe.

Tanuki Soothsayer
-You will not bribe me with  moe!
-For Force of the Ancients, a clause that prcs that grant independent spellcasting can go take a hike would be nice on the safer side. Because f*** ur priest and pals.
-Actually, reading it again, it could be readed like it grants it all, spellcasting, psionics as in all classes. Should clarify that you pick one.
-Leaf spirits should not stack with actual mirror image effects. Also, what's the range you can send them away as your avatars again?
-At-will immunity-piercing quickned magic jar! And you're still a fullcaster just missing a few low level spells! Where does the soul of the victim goes? What's stopping you from carrying a bunch of dumb brute undeads at later levels and then free action swapping around them like mad, making it impossible for your opponents to pinpoint your position? Heck, why isn't this save-or-become-my minion a standard action in the first place? Immunity piercing scaling is already good enough, I don't see why it needs or should have such fast activation methods. Again, remember you're still granting full casting advancment at this level.

Thanks.

No problem.

[Anomander]

Just for Laughs
Leaf Blower
Alright, I'll try to clarify. It essentially counts as a single weapon for the purpose of enchanting it. Kind of the same way a bow gives its properties to all its ammunition but still counts as a single item that shoots projectiles.

Major Objection
I'll just scrap it off then. No problem.

Tanuki Hero
Invincibility Leaf
Thought at 25th level it'd be alright considering the stuff that gets thrown around then but okay. Removing it.

Tanuki Soothsayer

You will not bribe me with moe!

Not the idea. Had found another image for this prc that I liked but figured it would work better for another one. This one had the little fires ans extra tanukis that fitted well with where I wanted to go with this prc.

For Force of the Ancients, a clause that prcs that grant independent spellcasting can go take a hike would be nice on the safer side.

Not sure I get your suggestion. You're suggesting this only works with base classes?

Actually, reading it again, it could be readed like it grants it all, spellcasting, psionics as in all classes. Should clarify that you pick one.

You're right. I paid too much attention to the multiclassing part and forgot to clearly mention it in the first sentence.

Leaf spirits should not stack with actual mirror image effects. Also, what's the range you can send them away as your avatars again?

Good idea on the stacking spell effects clause. The range is as per mirror image, so their location is limited as per the spell clause: they are always adjacent to at least the caster or another image.

At-will immunity-piercing quickned magic jar! And you're still a fullcaster just missing a few low level spells! Where does the soul of the victim goes? What's stopping you from carrying a bunch of dumb brute undeads at later levels and then free action swapping around them like mad, making it impossible for your opponents to pinpoint your position? Heck, why isn't this save-or-become-my minion a standard action in the first place? Immunity piercing scaling is already good enough, I don't see why it needs or should have such fast activation methods. Again, remember you're still granting full casting advancment at this level.

I don't mean to seem rude but maybe you can answer most of these questions for me by explaining how your Ghost's Malevolence ability works, because this is essentially the same thing but acquired at a minimum level of 10 instead of 2, but with scaling immunity piercing and a shorter immunity on save that still prevents it from being used more than once per fight.

[oslecamo]

Just for Laughs
Leaf Blower
Alright, I'll try to clarify. It essentially counts as a single weapon for the purpose of enchanting it. Kind of the same way a bow gives its properties to all its ammunition but still counts as a single item that shoots projectiles.

Actually, magic bows don't do that by default. What happens is that certain weapon enanchments have the clause of "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy(insert effect here) upon their ammunition." For example a bow of speed doesn't grant the speed enanchment to its arrows. Similarly a spellstoring bow doesn't allow you to actually transmit the stored spells to arrows. You have to enchant the arrows themselves with spellstoring.

Tanuki Soothsayer

You will not bribe me with moe!

Not the idea. Had found another image for this prc that I liked but figured it would work better for another one. This one had the little fires ans extra tanukis that fitted well with where I wanted to go with this prc.

It was more of a joke on my part, you had been using more animalistic Tanukis until now, then suddenly one that seems out of Touhou.

For Force of the Ancients, a clause that prcs that grant independent spellcasting can go take a hike would be nice on the safer side.

Not sure I get your suggestion. You're suggesting this only works with base classes?

Yes.

At-will immunity-piercing quickned magic jar! And you're still a fullcaster just missing a few low level spells! Where does the soul of the victim goes? What's stopping you from carrying a bunch of dumb brute undeads at later levels and then free action swapping around them like mad, making it impossible for your opponents to pinpoint your position? Heck, why isn't this save-or-become-my minion a standard action in the first place? Immunity piercing scaling is already good enough, I don't see why it needs or should have such fast activation methods. Again, remember you're still granting full casting advancment at this level.

I don't mean to seem rude but maybe you can answer most of these questions for me by explaining how your Ghost's Malevolence ability works, because this is essentially the same thing but acquired at a minimum level of 10 instead of 2, but with scaling immunity piercing and a shorter immunity on save that still prevents it from being used more than once per fight.

Good point, clarified the Malevolence ability so that the target's soul gets trapped into the ghost's original body.

Now the key differences I'm seeing:
-Soothsayer is granting fullcasting advancment. Ghost is not.
-Ghost has an in-built penalty on the form of needing to drag a vulnerable corpse around. Soothsayer has not.
-Ghost must first use manifestation, negating some of its inherent advantages. Soothsayer needs not.
-Ghost can use it only 1/round. Soothsayer can potentially use it multiple times per round. Even if not on the same target right away, you can cycle around different ones.
-Immunity piercing is a pretty big deal for an effect such as magic jar.

Now you make a good case by noting that the ghost can potentially grab this at 2nd level, while the soothsayer will only be getting it at 10th... But the soothsayer is also gaining fullcasting advancment. If that level didn't grant you any spellcasting advancment, or if at least it didn't eventually became immunity piercing, then I wouldn't have any qualms with it.

[Anomander]

Just for Laughs
Leaf Blower

Actually, magic bows don't do that by default. What happens is that certain weapon enanchments have the clause of "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy(insert effect here) upon their ammunition." For example a bow of speed doesn't grant the speed enanchment to its arrows. Similarly a spellstoring bow doesn't allow you to actually transmit the stored spells to arrows. You have to enchant the arrows themselves with spellstoring.

Correct the mechanics of bows. Regardless, could you read what the clarifications I've made to it and see if it better fit how I want it to work?
On your examples, I can understand why they decided to word the mechanics the way they did. The Speed affect allows you to make an extra attack so the bow applying it to arrows doesn't change anything. Spellstoring cannot be applied to arrows though since it is a melee special ability only. (you can technically attack in melee with an arrow as an improvised weapon but it wouldn't work at range.)

Tanuki Soothsayer

It was more of a joke on my part, you had been using more animalistic Tanukis until now, then suddenly one that seems out of Touhou.

Aye. I have no idea where it comes from though. Probably an original piece. The one I'm planning to use for the Bake-Danuki is bowser and a bowser Jr using a tanooki leaf. I found more humanoid-transformed tanuki pictures but they didn't really fit.

Spirited Away

Good point, clarified the Malevolence ability so that the target's soul gets trapped into the ghost's original body.

Alright. I'll clarify the soul stays in the body, but takes a backseat. Better make the mechanics clear since this kind of possession is pretty frequent in Japanese folklore so it'll probably come back in later works. Even some kappa got it.

-Soothsayer is granting fullcasting advancment. Ghost is not.

For a 2 level investment and less it gets stuff like etherealness, incorporeality and undead traits. The penalties it has for taking an undead prestige class will affect it for only 2 levels at most. Because it is also a template that can be applied to most creatures it can be applied to a monster class to get its benefits. A monster class investing 10 levels in Tanuki/Soothsayer is in for a much bigger investment.
Ghost also has the potential to get more Ghost Powers by spending feats, getting stuff like, say, Ancient Power.
So the comparison is even worse. A Tanuki cannot just spend feats to get more Just for Laughs and Master of Mischief abilities. It has to actually get more levels in a PrC. I could have made Spirited Away a Master of Mischief ability available to the average level 4 Tanuki and it wouldn't had been much of a problem. I gave it a little buff for being a capstone instead.

-Ghost has an in-built penalty on the form of needing to drag a vulnerable corpse around. Soothsayer has not.

It can be played around. The penalty is not all that penalizing for the investment. Soothsayer takes a bunch of levels to get the ability and doesn't need a penalty to compensate for anything.

-Ghost must first use manifestation, negating some of its inherent advantages. Soothsayer needs not.

Of course. Soothsayer doesn't have etherealness nor the incorporeality that manifesting grants (the horror). Manifesting is often required to interact with anything and to attack nonethereal enemies. Just having the option to manifest is an advantage in itself, not a penalty at all.

-Ghost can use it only 1/round. Soothsayer can potentially use it multiple times per round. Even if not on the same target right away, you can cycle around different ones.

Read again. The possession ability can only be used once per round. Its one of the first things written there.

-Immunity piercing is a pretty big deal for an effect such as magic jar.

Agreed. Kinda why I thought it made for an appropriate capstone at 10th level. If it bugs you I'll just remove it. No problem.
I'll keep the possible ward piercing though, unless you don't like it either. Seems thematic though. A low level priest should have trouble keeping a strong tsukimono from a body or driving it out.

[oslecamo]

Just for Laughs
Leaf Blower

Actually, magic bows don't do that by default. What happens is that certain weapon enanchments have the clause of "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy(insert effect here) upon their ammunition." For example a bow of speed doesn't grant the speed enanchment to its arrows. Similarly a spellstoring bow doesn't allow you to actually transmit the stored spells to arrows. You have to enchant the arrows themselves with spellstoring.

Correct the mechanics of bows. Regardless, could you read what the clarifications I've made to it and see if it better fit how I want it to work?

Looking good now.

On your examples, I can understand why they decided to word the mechanics the way they did. The Speed affect allows you to make an extra attack so the bow applying it to arrows doesn't change anything. Spellstoring cannot be applied to arrows though since it is a melee special ability only. (you can technically attack in melee with an arrow as an improvised weapon but it wouldn't work at range.)

Yeah, you're right on that.

Agreed. Kinda why I thought it made for an appropriate capstone at 10th level. If it bugs you I'll just remove it. No problem.
I'll keep the possible ward piercing though, unless you don't like it either. Seems thematic though. A low level priest should have trouble keeping a strong tsukimono from a body or driving it out.

Protection from X piercing sounds good.

[Anomander]

Alright, I made Spirited Away into a Master of Mischief and removed the immunity piercing. Any Tanuki has the potential to be a tsukimono and now I don't see why only the spellcasting ones should have that power.
It starts out the same as Malevolence but a bit weaker since it specifies that a move action must be used while a Ghost could just do a 5-ft. step into the target. Then I gave it some scaling since it is a level 4 ability and there is no spellcasting.

I gave it an improvement on its Soothing Nature ability instead.

I also changed the name of Spirited Away to Soulmates. Because I realized that Spirited Away would make a great name for a Sake Affinity related Master of Mischief ability. 

[oslecamo]

Alright, I made Spirited Away into a Master of Mischief and removed the immunity piercing. Any Tanuki has the potential to be a tsukimono and now I don't see why only the spellcasting ones should have that power.
It starts out the same as Malevolence but a bit weaker since it specifies that a move action must be used while a Ghost could just do a 5-ft. step into the target. Then I gave it some scaling since it is a level 4 ability and there is no spellcasting.

...Ghost malevolence needs a fullround action to use at 2nd level, standard action at 4 HD, and only becomes a move action at 8 HD. Just like the other ghost greater powers unless noted otherwise.

I gave it an improvement on its Soothing Nature ability instead.

So soothsayers are the ultimate necromancer druids now, being able to gradually build up an infinite army of helpful undeads and animals, since there's no cap or duration limit?

[Anomander]

Didn't notice. Will adjust consequently.

So soothsayers are the ultimate necromancer druids now, being able to gradually build up an infinite army of helpful undeads and animals, since there's no cap or duration limit?

Only if a DM would be the kind to give ultimate power to diplomancers.

[oslecamo]

Except this is even more broken than diplomancer, since the Soothsayer doesn't need any action to activate it and can turn beings that don't even have a language to communicate with into minions.

Oh, but wait, now the Soothsayer's capstone makes it apply to other creature types. Choose humanoid, enter the town, everybody becomes helpful, meaning they're willing to take risks for you, meaning they're basically your minions since they now protect, back up and aid you, even as you kill them for exp and loot. Orc invading army? Now orc slave army! And the Soothsayer didn't even slow down. Tanukis are the incostentable rulers of the world, gg no re. friendly army. Slightly less broken. Still doesn't change necromancers soothsayers make better druid necromancers than either druids or necromancers.

Diplomacy is usually fixed by preventing it from turning creatures automatically into helpful with just a skill check. Soothsayer is still broken even with that fix, unless you rewrite the helpful definition, which is a much bigger headache for the DM. Because you'll have to come up with a definition of "helpful" that isn't actually helpful.

Could be called "friendly". As in "Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate". You know, like it was before you decided to randomly buff it up to eleven for no valid reason.

[Anomander]

Except this is even more broken than diplomancer, since the Soothsayer doesn't need any action to activate it and can turn beings that don't even have a language to communicate with into minions.

Only if the diplomancer somehow has that kind of power to begin with in the campaign.

Oh, but wait, now the Soothsayer's capstone makes it apply to other creature types. Choose humanoid, enter the town, everybody becomes helpful, meaning they're willing to take risks for you, meaning they're basically your minions since they now protect, back up and aid you, even as you kill them for exp and loot.

Nope. Other types are made friendly at best. Not helpful. It won't help much if you start attacking them since it stops the effect.
Everything afterwards maintains that confusion.

Essentially I could tweak it into a Calm Emotion aura and it would keep the spirit of what I'm looking for with this ability.
I could also give it a Soothing Touch ability at first level instead that eases the heart by removing fear, confusion/insanity/other negative mind-affecting effects and some mental ability score damage/drain (scaling), but inflicting the Calm Emotion effect as well, giving the heart tranquility (so it could be used in battle only an ally but he might not want to fight afterwards until attacked).

[ketaro]

Yeah, something like Calm Emotion could probably be better than stepping into the easy-fit shoes of a diplomancer...

[oslecamo]

The more I think about it, the worst of an idea Force of the Anciensts sounds. In the long run you're losing basically nothing spellcasting wise, and you get a lot of extra abilities in a pretty solid base chassis. It needs to either have a delayed progression, or some spellcasting custom limitation, otherwise the soothsayer is a disguised fullcaster on steroids, and that's really bad.

Except this is even more broken than diplomancer, since the Soothsayer doesn't need any action to activate it and can turn beings that don't even have a language to communicate with into minions.

Only if the diplomancer somehow has that kind of power to begin with in the campaign.

What part of "fixing the diplomancer still leaves the soothsayer broken as hell" part aren't you exactly understanding? Because since you made the ability independent of diplomacy, nerfing the diplomancer does absolutely nothing to reign in the soothsayer.

Essentially I could tweak it into a Calm Emotion aura and it would keep the spirit of what I'm looking for with this ability.
I could also give it a Soothing Touch ability at first level instead that eases the heart by removing fear, confusion/insanity/other negative mind-affecting effects and some mental ability score damage/drain (scaling), but inflicting the Calm Emotion effect as well, giving the heart tranquility (so it could be used in battle only an ally but he might not want to fight afterwards until attacked).

What's exacty the "spirit" you're looking for?

Before right now it is the ultimate minionmancer. And now it seems like you want to make it the ultimate debuff cleanser, which is quite the different direction.

Either way, replacing "become my minions" with "calm emotions" is a good first step to fixing this. Adding even more abilities on top of unrestricted nondelayed fullcasting is not.

Really, you have to make choices. If you're handing out free fullcasting, you've gotta cut back on something, not shoehorn in so many abilities you could make a base class with them alone with dual ability score boosts on top of that every level.

[Anomander]

Changed stuff around.
Feel free too look it up once you've calmed down.

[oslecamo]

Still a virtual fullcaster gestalt. A prc that gave nothing but Master of mischief or Just for Laughs every level along with stat boosts would make for a pretty solid class. Spellcasting of your choice on top of that that just sacrifices a few low level spell slots does not a balanced class makes. It would also make for a terrible, terrible precedent, and from here would be a simple matter of time before I start getting spammed with wizard++ monster classes.

[ketaro]

It probably has enough tricks that it could get by reasonably well still even with stunted casting ability/progression, imo :/

[Anomander]

Reviewed it all again and I agree. Thanks.

Now only the first level grants an effective level into a class for casting purposes. To get more, you need to spend one Just for Laughs ability per extra effective level in the chosen class. It still grants casting affinity for the TSoothsayer levels that aren't turned into a level that grants actual spells known/per day (or whatever equivalent depending on the casting type) if it doesn't trade enough Just for Laughs abilities to become a fullcaster (minus the first four levels' gains).
It has the bonus of allowing some customization while keeping fullcasting somewhat possible (especially considering the last level gives casting affinity but doesn't grant a Just for Laughs to cover it, forcing it to get another 2 more levels in another Tanuki Prc or spend a Master of Mischief to get 2 JfLs preemptively to cover the last level.)
Some might think that nerf is too heavy but I think it's just right amount.

I hope it solves the issue.

On another note, now, I'm really running out of stuff to remove to make some space to fit all this into the maximum characters per post. I'll have to make links to the next 2-3 prestige classes (Bakedanuki, Kaminuki and perhaps Space Raccoon). I didn't expect I'd be making all this stuff. Should have made a second post just in case and I'm not sure another of my posts can just be moved under the first post for convenience but I'll make do. Maybe I'll get through with the Bakedanuki sometimes this week or the next. Cheers.