Fun Finds v6.0

[Chemus]

From MIC, Bracers of the Entangling Blast combo quite nicely with Wall of Fire.  You actually get more damage out of using them than just the regular spell, but you also get the benefit of holding enemies in there to let them cook for a few rounds.  Wall of Fire damages a pretty large area.

Oh, and these bracers are Warlock friendly for use with Wall of Perilous Flame.

Are we allowed to extrapolate prices for 3/day or 1/day items to at will? If so, those bracers would only be 3333.33gp (2000/.6) to buy as at will. Custom item pricing is firmly in the DMs demesne, however...

[Amechra]

Also from MiC, Gauntlets of Extended Range double the Range Increment of any throwing weapon you use for 2000gp.

Get x3 range on a throwing weapon with Far Shot. Could be nice in combination with Hawkeye.

[Garryl]

Wouldn't that be 4x range (2x gauntlets, 2x Far Shot w/ thrown weapon)? Range increments are measured in feet, which is a real-world unit, so D&D math doesn't apply.

[Amechra]

Heh. Heh. HAHAHAHA.

[ketaro]

Wouldn't that be 4x range (2x gauntlets, 2x Far Shot w/ thrown weapon)? Range increments are measured in feet, which is a real-world unit, so D&D math doesn't apply.

D&D explicitly states a x2 and a x2 becomes a x3, not a x4.

I believe the text is usually worded as "doubling a doubling becomes a tripling, and doubling that becomes a quadrupling and so on and so on." Or something very close to that.

[Garryl]

Wouldn't that be 4x range (2x gauntlets, 2x Far Shot w/ thrown weapon)? Range increments are measured in feet, which is a real-world unit, so D&D math doesn't apply.

D&D explicitly states a x2 and a x2 becomes a x3, not a x4.

I believe the text is usually worded as "doubling a doubling becomes a tripling, and doubling that becomes a quadrupling and so on and so on." Or something very close to that.

Not for real-world values. D&D math is only for the abstract stuff like damage.

[ketaro]

I guess adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing variables isn't real world math anymore.
No wonder nobody likes math classes, they are teaching things that don't actually exist 

[Amechra]

I dislike the way that D&D pulls off their math.

The problem is that anything that, say, doubles an abstract value is actually just adds 100% to the value. Or, alternatively, if you call an abstract value k * x, where k is the base value and x is the multiplier, it's easy to see that anything that doubles the value actually just adds 1 to x.

In other words, the base bonus is 1*k. If you double it, you add 1 to x, and get 2*k. If you then tripled it, you'd add 2 to x, and you'd get 4*k.

D&D multiplication is perfectly consistent... they just explained what they were doing very poorly.

[snakeman830]

I dislike the way that D&D pulls off their math.

The problem is that anything that, say, doubles an abstract value is actually just adds 100% to the value. Or, alternatively, if you call an abstract value k * x, where k is the base value and x is the multiplier, it's easy to see that anything that doubles the value actually just adds 1 to x.

In other words, the base bonus is 1*k. If you double it, you add 1 to x, and get 2*k. If you then tripled it, you'd add 2 to x, and you'd get 4*k.

D&D multiplication is perfectly consistent... they just explained what they were doing very poorly.

It would be easier if instead of saying "doubled" or "tripled" they said "+100% or "+200%" of base."  That way, you would have your base value and could just add the % modifiers together.

If I ever get my RPG system written out, that's how I'll be doing it.

[SorO_Lost]

Not for real-world values. D&D math is only for the abstract stuff like damage.

Except range on a real world bow isn't limited to 60ft and in the middle ages it greatly varied.

I've always considered Range is an abstract rather than a real world value. Like area is a "real world value" but have you seen what Widen Spell does to it?

D&D made things easier to calculate things like Widen which practically requires you to remember trigonometry. And prevented damage from going absolutely f'ed up crazy on the starting line, imagine x8 dealing x128 instead. And all it cost was just a little bit of confusion every now and then.

[linklord231]

Distance is literally one of two things specifically called out as using normal math (doubled double equals x4).

[SorO_Lost]

Thank you for parroting Garryl.

Allow me to reiterate. We are talking about the abstract restriction of Range imposed on weapons, and I provided a second example where the quote on quote "distance" across a circle doesn't care if you can apply a certain word to it. As a third, are two horses 1,434mm? Please take a moment and reacquaint your self to the fact that distance and range are not even synonyms and why that just because you can take a tape measure to it how distance is not a relative term in many instances.

[snakeman830]

But Range is defined by distance.  Ergo, as Distance is a real-world value and follows normal math, Range is defined by real-world math.

[SorO_Lost]

Oh dear heavenly Pelor, do you see the people populating the planet? Just bring the rapture already and save us.

In mathematics range means all the values between the minimum and maximum values within the set. It's completely abstract in both English and math. For examples, the Toddler age group has a range of 12~36 months. Water remains liquid in the range of 0~100c, a D&D bow can shoot within the range of 0~1,000ft of distance, a good diet requires a range of quality foods. But range isn't months, Celsius, distance, or apples and oranges and you have to be retarded to ever suggest such, specially after trying to claim "it's math dude!" which instantly refutes your position.

Effects like Far Shot do not double distance like you pretend, they alter the range exactly as they say they do. Specifically for a bow, N can be anything within 0 to 1,500ft because that is within range. That's why you can shoot at a target 5ft away or 10ft away. And if they said distance than you couldn't hit any one unless they were exactly one thousand five hundred feet away. Because that is the literal meaning, each arrow fired travels the distance of 1,000ft*1.5. Which ironically means you're screwing your self because you're always subject to the maximum penalty on your attack roll for hitting targets ten Range Increments away.

[Garryl]

Range Increment
Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.

Range increment is a distance. What's the problem?

[Jackinthegreen]

As noted, range increment is a distance.  Or one could think of it as a certain number of squares which are explicitly mentioned as being real world distance values with the example of a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain treating each square as 4x because the blinded means 2x, then the difficult terrain means another 2x for the final multiplication of 4x.  Thus each square costs 4 x 5 = 20 feet of movement.

Similarly, the range increment of a dagger is 10 feet, or 2x 5 foot squares meaning its maximum range is 50 feet/10x 5 foot squares since 5 times 10 equals 50. Using Far Shot that would double the range increment to 20 feet, or 4x 5 foot squares.  A character with both Far Shot and the Gauntlets of Extended Range would have a range increment on a dagger of 40 feet/8x 5 foot squares because that's 4 (2 x 2) times the original range increment of 10 feet for a dagger.  The maximum range for this wielder is 5 x 40 feet = 200 feet.

Why are semantics being argued when the rules in this case are so straightforward?

[linklord231]

Range is expressed in feet.
Feet is a measurement of distance.
Therefor, Range is a distance. 
QED

[wotmaniac]

Why are semantics being argued when the rules in this case are so straightforward?

Because somebody wants to put more thought in and be way more ticky-tac about this than is warranted. 
Except when you look at his abstract literalism, and translate that to conversational language, points of contention kinda melt away. 
Huh, how about that.

[Frogman55]

Range is expressed in feet.
Feet is a measurement of distance.
Therefor, Range is a distance. 
QED

Your logic is flawed.

Range does not equal feet.
Range is [often] expressed in feet.
Sometimes it is expressed in squares.
Even if given in feet, it can still have different meaning.
Sometimes it is given as increments.
Sometimes it is given as touch, short, medium, long.
Sometimes the range given is a hard max.
Sometimes the range given is a point where you don't accrue range penalties.

Question: So in which case is 'range' the same as distance?
Answer: 'Range' can have different arbitrary meanings depending on what type of action is being discussed. It can also have different arbitrary designations depending on the level, weapon, or other factors. Thus, range does not describe a real-world number. Range describes an arbitrary limit imposed on various abilities, and does not use real-world math.  If you are told to double the range, then multiples are added, not multiplied.

In other words, 10 feet always means 10 feet.
However, a 10' range can have several different meanings.
Thus, range does not equal distance, even though range refers to distance.
QED

Caveat: If a feat (or class ability, or whatever) said something like: your bow can fire twice as many feet, or double the distance, then you would use real-world math.

[SorO_Lost]

Caveat: If a feat (or class ability, or whatever) said something like: your bow can fire twice as many feet, or double the distance, then you would use real-world math.

Yeahee someone got it.

Feet is a measurement of distance.

Last time I checked feet are actually a unit of measurement for length, a value that measures a single dimension (fast fact area is used for two and doesn't behave as real world).

In order for length to be discussed as distance you need two points. Such as an archer and his specific target. The value between them is expressed in distance, but how far the archer can fire is not. For example, picture a 2x4. When someone asks it's size do you say "it's 8ft" (an expression of length) or "the other end is 8ft away from my hand" (an expression of distance)? In D&D the distance between you and the target is checked against the range for penalties or ineligibility and most effects, specially the ones we are discussing, increase range not distance (for good reason).