Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z

[oslecamo]

I also want to suggest a sorta-buff to the Champion ability: synergy with Leadership. This would be Leadership increasing the maximum Champion level without another pick. Modified with this suggestion, Royal Champion would read:

Royal Champion - You gain a Real Pilot Cohort that can only take Pilot feats and places your protection above everything else to the point of not starting fights unless absolutely necessary. The Champion won't willingly go further than 30 mu away from you, nor will they attack/hinder an enemy unless they first try to attack you or the Champion. The Champion is level 3 or the Peace Princess's level, whichever is lower. You can take this multiple times, each one increasing the Royal Champion's max level by 1, up to 6. For every two points of Leadership score, you may increase the maximum level of the Champion by 1 without taking another pick of Champion. This does not allow the Champion to exceed level 6 or the Peace Princess's level. Leadership score points used to increase your Champion's maximum level don't count toward your effective Leadership score for determining the maximum level of the Cohort gained from the Leadership feat. If the Royal Champion is lost, it takes 1d12 days to get a replacement. You can only pick this option once per Peace Princess level.

And Great Champion and higher would read something like:

Great Champion - You must have a Champion of level 6 to pick this. Increase the max level of the Champion by 1 per pick, up to a maximum of 9. For every two points of Leadership score not used to raise the Champion's level to 6, you may increase the maximum level of the Champion by 1 without taking another pick of Great Champion. You still must pick Great Champion at least once to increase the maximum level of the Champion above 6. You can only pick this option once per Peace Princess level.

Queen would be the same as the edit above.

I think those changes would give a nice balance of keeping the Champion's power under control while also allowing you to benefit from the feature without spending a pick on the Champion every single level. A reasonably attainable Leadership of 24 at level 20 would provide enough extra levels to require only one pick of each tier.

As a comparison "middle point", I don't consider the Royal Guard ability substantially overpowered. Even though it gives earlier access to Followers and potentially higher levels for them, it can't completely overwhelm what Leadership grants in follower level and number at the same time. Also the restrictions on the followers are harsh enough to make up for the difference in levels. The only change I would make would also be restricting the followers to the Peace Princess's level or below. It would also be possible to grant similar synergy with Leadership there.

Those sound like good and interesting ideas, edited in this versions of the Champion. Guards now capped to Peace Princess level too, the Connection line now only grants one combat weapon or special weapon or accessory per pick. Just didn't add synergy between guards and leadership since I'm not sure what a fair exchange rate would be in this case plus the Peace Princess already has more than enough reasons to pick Leadership. Thanks!

Okay, finally home.

Alternate Magitechnique language:

Magitechnique: A Magitech Knight may pick one of the following Magitechnique lists and must forget spells on her paladin spell list to gain  Magitechniques of the same level at the rate of 2 paladin spells per Magitechnique spell from that list. Such abilities can only be activated by an actual Magitech Knight, they can't be made in item form (no scrolls, wands, staves, wondrous item, etc of Magitechnique) and no other class or ability may replicate them.

These abilities can be activated by rendering 1 prepared spell of the indicated spell level impossible to cast until the Magitech Knight next rests for eight hours. Magitechniques are activated as if they were spell-like abilities using the Magitech Knight level as caster level (minimum CL1), except they require spell-components as listed in the magitechnique entry. Saving throws are equal to 10+magitechnique level+Wis mod.



Since the magitechnique is activated by expending 1 spell of the same level I changed the save to just use magitechnique level.  I also removed the word "cast" in a couple of places and standardized as the word "activated" since you had that in at least one place already and it helps keep the idea that these aren't spells.

Thanks as well, edited your cleaned up version in too!

[Fzzr]

Thanks for taking on these suggestions, glad you like them so far. Here are some more looks at classes:

Magitech Knight:
I don't have anything to add to the Magitechnique suggestions others have given. I think this class is actually a bit too constrained. Compared to Paladin, which just loses class features when violating the code of conduct, the Magitech Knight is potentially damaged enough to die outright. I would instead apply the HP penalty to the mecha. If the mecha would have HP below zero due to code violations, the Magitech Knight may not pilot a mecha of any kind until all code violations are resolved.

I have no problem with other pilots getting eaten by the mecha though. Om nom nom.

Machinery Warrior:
Basically a Super that's hyper-specialized for survivability. There are two main issues with it: it's TOO survivable and the spirit discounts are too great. On the survivability side, it has two health bars, 25 HP/level, regen, reactor, immune to crits etc, and ignores death once/day. Add in up to three free action spirits per hour based on HP thresholds and half-price spirits and this thing can go forever. I have several suggestions here:
 
Cut the spirit discount like so:

Spirit On the Machinery: Each level of Machinery Warrior increases the maximum number of spirit points of the character by 4. In addition the character learns one spirit at levels 1, 5 and 9. Those Spirits only cost half the normal amount of spirit to use, or subtract 2 * Machinery Warrior level + 1 * other levels from the SP cost, whichever discount is smaller.

This means that Love costs 30SP at level 20 instead of level 11, but Revival can't cost less than 120SP no matter what you do.

Prevent external healing like so:

Self-Regenerating: The Machinery Warrior's mecha gains the Regeneration and Reactor I properties, both increasing an extra 1 at levels 3, 5, 7, and 9. This doesn't stack with Nanomachines or Reactor gained from other sources. The Machinery Warrior himself also gains the same grade of Nanomachines. However, the Machinery Warrior can no longer gain health or energy from any external source (including accessories, potions, and magic) nor from any spirits, including his own. He may still gain healing and energy from any racial ability, feat, class feature, or anything inherent to the Machinery Warrior or his mecha.

Removing external healing means it's still the Juggernaut, but not so much so that even the slightest amount of external support makes it truly unstoppable.

And replace the HP threshold spirits with hard HP stops (suggestion from Raineh Daze)

You Cannot Stop Me: At 3rd level 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior's mecha would drop below 50% max HP, he may instead have it drop to only 50% HP.
Machinery Cannot be Stopped: at level 6 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior or his Mecha would drop below 75% or 25% max HP, he may instead have it drop to only 75% or 25% HP respectively.

The end product of these changes is something that's still very survivable, but not so much so that it essentially only dies if you do 500 damage per round.

[Raineh Daze]

It's also a unique survivability. You get to survive any massive burst damage, but you can't heal straight up to full and rely on cheap maneuvers to ignore your class's own healing abilities.

[oslecamo]

Thanks for taking on these suggestions, glad you like them so far. Here are some more looks at classes:

Magitech Knight:
I don't have anything to add to the Magitechnique suggestions others have given. I think this class is actually a bit too constrained. Compared to Paladin, which just loses class features when violating the code of conduct, the Magitech Knight is potentially damaged enough to die outright. I would instead apply the HP penalty to the mecha. If the mecha would have HP below zero due to code violations, the Magitech Knight may not pilot a mecha of any kind until all code violations are resolved.

Another good idea, done.

I have no problem with other pilots getting eaten by the mecha though. Om nom nom.

Machinery Warrior:
Basically a Super that's hyper-specialized for survivability. There are two main issues with it: it's TOO survivable and the spirit discounts are too great. On the survivability side, it has two health bars, 25 HP/level, regen, reactor, immune to crits etc, and ignores death once/day. Add in up to three free action spirits per hour based on HP thresholds and half-price spirits and this thing can go forever. I have several suggestions here:
 
Cut the spirit discount like so:

Spirit On the Machinery: Each level of Machinery Warrior increases the maximum number of spirit points of the character by 4. In addition the character learns one spirit at levels 1, 5 and 9. Those Spirits only cost half the normal amount of spirit to use, or subtract 2 * Machinery Warrior level + 1 * other levels from the SP cost, whichever discount is smaller.

This means that Love costs 30SP at level 20 instead of level 11, but Revival can't cost less than 120SP no matter what you do.

Prevent external healing like so:

Self-Regenerating: The Machinery Warrior's mecha gains the Regeneration and Reactor I properties, both increasing an extra 1 at levels 3, 5, 7, and 9. This doesn't stack with Nanomachines or Reactor gained from other sources. The Machinery Warrior himself also gains the same grade of Nanomachines. However, the Machinery Warrior can no longer gain health or energy from any external source (including accessories, potions, and magic) nor from any spirits, including his own. He may still gain healing and energy from any racial ability, feat, class feature, or anything inherent to the Machinery Warrior or his mecha.

Removing external healing means it's still the Juggernaut, but not so much so that even the slightest amount of external support makes it truly unstoppable.

And replace the HP threshold spirits with hard HP stops (suggestion from Raineh Daze)

You Cannot Stop Me: At 3rd level 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior's mecha would drop below 50% max HP, he may instead have it drop to only 50% HP.
Machinery Cannot be Stopped: at level 6 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior or his Mecha would drop below 75% or 25% max HP, he may instead have it drop to only 75% or 25% HP respectively.

The end product of these changes is something that's still very survivable, but not so much so that it essentially only dies if you do 500 damage per round.

Those sound like more good points, applied. I particularly like the simplicity of the new "Cannot" abilities.

It's also a unique survivability. You get to survive any massive burst damage, but you can't heal straight up to full and rely on cheap maneuvers to ignore your class's own healing abilities.

Thanks for helping too, really appreciate it.

[Sweetiebot]

Hey, is this;

Grenade Shell

Choose one of your weapons. It gains the Area property for 1 round.

Supposed to give the explosive variant? Because, RAW, it would be the line variant. I don't think that's how grenades work.

[oslecamo]

Ah, I knew I forgot to change something after the Area property overhaul, changed to Area(Explosive). Thanks!

[Sweetiebot]

Also, does Beloved cause the target to genuinelly start feeling that way towards you (and vice versa?)

[YuweaCurtis]

Close relationships are a very complex matter, but there's no denying that there's great power to be drawn from them. For a mecha pilot putting their life on the hands of other mecha pilots, it's not unexpected at all to develop strong feelings for your companions of one kind or another.

When you pick a [Relationship] feat, you must choose an individual to which it will apply. Each individual can only be targeted by a single kind of relationship-you cannot love someone while wanting to be friends with them. However the feelings don't need to be mutual. The target of your love can feel you as just a friend, if they have have any feelings back for you at all!

Ship captains and Mecha Mooks that took the Combined Team feat cannot have relationship feats towards their own class companions. They already have deep links between them resulting from piloting the same machine simultaneously. Similarly, you can't benefit from Relationship feats if the target of your affection is sharing your space.

Each relationship feat provides certain bonus when near the target of your feelings (even if they're disabled or dead), but if you both share the same kind of  feeling for each other, this allows you to unleash a Synchro Attack :

As far as actually having the feeling, I'm unsure if it's mechanically necessary, but this is a roleplaying game and would be out of the spirit if you didn't act on the emotion.

[oslecamo]

Yes, they would have the actual feelings towards you, but as shown by many mecha shows you can be friends or in love with somebody else and still do your best to atomize them with giant robots.

[Raineh Daze]

Right, courtesy of SorO pointing out interactions with effects like masochism, or remembering the absurdity of various Frenzied Berserker effects, some rewording might be in order for "You cannot stop me" and its followup...

If you would lose HP that would reduce you below 50% of your maximum HP (excluding temporary hitpoints), 1/hour you may lose only enough HP to bring yourself to only 50% of your maximum HP instead. Any further damage from the same source is ignored until the start of your next turn.

AKA: no losing 500 hp virtually for huge buffs but only losing 5hp in practise and getting bonuses or strange rule interactions. And a further addition to prevent someone from ignoring the ability just by hitting you twice (but being swarmed by lots of enemies is still effective)

I believe this is still clear about its interactions with con damage or negative levels (max HP drops, current hp drops by same amount, if current hp would drop below half max hp you may keep it at half max) but that could further be added. People misinterpreting what it means to be a dead character was also raised but I doubt that's likely or sane enough to address. <_>

[oslecamo]

Well I would say the main problem with masochism is masochism itself, it's not like it's the type of spell anybody just casts as normal buff routine, but rather because they have a plan to abuse it, and such plans can normally be unleashed significantly earlier than 13th level.

Still doesn't hurt to limit such shenigans, and the anti-multiple attacks clause is fine if you think it's needed too. Just had to adapt the wording to cover the fact where it's supposed to work for the mecha too.

[Kuroimaken]

Well I would say the main problem with masochism is masochism itself,

Dood
Don't be kinkshaming yo

I kid. But seriously, the masochism spell is actually more of a problem than you realize if you can use spirits outside your mecha.

Round 1) Cast Masochism
Round 2) Hurt yourself in an unimaginable way (GRENADE-HUGGING FTW)
Round 3) Guts, then KICK REASON TO THE FUCKING CURB

[Raineh Daze]

I think it's been said you can't use guts/refresh outside of mecha, but that was in OOC stuff, not here.

[Kuroimaken]

I figured.

Nonetheless, the joke was mostly aimed to poke fun at Kamina.

[Raineh Daze]

Still doesn't hurt to limit such shenigans, and the anti-multiple attacks clause is fine if you think it's needed too. Just had to adapt the wording to cover the fact where it's supposed to work for the mecha too.

It just seems like it'd defeat the point if you'd survive one hit from a buffed alpha strike and then... the rest blows through you.

[oslecamo]

Attacker, Guardian & Predict now capped in the number of turns they can stack, courtesy of Fzzr,

I figured.

Nonetheless, the joke was mostly aimed to poke fun at Kamina.

That's also Prevail which gives stat boosts when HP drops low, plus Chiriko from Votoms has the unique Survivor skill that gives him mad buffs when at red, easier said than done considering his machines may as well be made of paper tissue.

So in other news, thinking about Spirits. A problem now is that there's a significant difference between making a pilot organically that would want to pick cheap spirits early game then grab more expensive stuff as their pool increases, and making a high.level pilot which can afford to skip the lesser cheaper spirits and grab a bunch of the big ones instead. The computer games skip this problem mostly by giving fixed lists to virtually every pilot ( in New Game+ often you can cherry pick the main character's spirits), but writing dozens of lists really isn't an option.

A solution I've been thinking about is dividing spirits in tiers. Three of them to be more specific, and your first 3 spirits must be from tier I, the next two must be from tier II and the last one will be tier III.

I-The cheap stuff, Accel, Alert, Focus, Invulnerability and equivalent ship captains, plus Valor since basically every pilot that's somebody learns this one. Also the more random ones like the crit enhanchers.

II-More specialized stuff, Guard, Fury, Strike, as well as stronger versions of tier I like Soul and Guts.

III-The "uber" spirits that combine multiple effects such as Love/Bravery as well as the extra turn ones like Zeal and Enable. Quite strong, but you're getting only one of them.

Also Love is probably too cheap right now, the 60 SP cost was taken straight from the GBA original generation games that weren't exactly very properly costed and should probably have cost increased to some 90 SP like in later games which I've been catching up with.

[Raineh Daze]

I'm all for having Zeal not show up before Time Stop does, at least.

Though would it work that for Tier II you could also pick two Tier I options etc.?

Second thing--spirits that give you an effective +1 to the turns you've been fighting for the purposes of attacker and similar. It seems pointless to use them; if you have the feat it's an "extra" +1 but... only for that turn. Permanently incrementing the counter seems slightly more use.

[oslecamo]

I'm all for having Zeal not show up before Time Stop does, at least.

Though would it work that for Tier II you could also pick two Tier I options etc.?

An interesting idea, but I'm trying to keep the number of spirits fixed.

How about you can learn two lower tier spirits but they become "linked" and you can only use them together?

Second thing--spirits that give you an effective +1 to the turns you've been fighting for the purposes of attacker and similar. It seems pointless to use them; if you have the feat it's an "extra" +1 but... only for that turn. Permanently incrementing the counter seems slightly more use.

That would need some careful wording since permanently increasing the counter can just mean you're always at the cap of the feats all the time. Any ideas?

[CKirk]

Second thing--spirits that give you an effective +1 to the turns you've been fighting for the purposes of attacker and similar. It seems pointless to use them; if you have the feat it's an "extra" +1 but... only for that turn. Permanently incrementing the counter seems slightly more use.

That would need some careful wording since permanently increasing the counter can just mean you're always at the cap of the feats all the time. Any ideas?

Is that really a bad thing, so long as it only lasts until the end of the combat? Given the source material, it's rare that you fall below Attacker/Predict will thresholds once you reach them.

[oslecamo]

That "combat" is more of an abstract concept in D&D? Although I guess that's a limitation with a clear intent and a player dickish enough to try to cheese that wording would be stopped.

And since you're here again, did you miss my question about whetever your AC spreadshseet took in account that the heavier grades of armor accessories also nullify dodge/dex bonus to AC? Again, you claimed the Astraganant would have 79 AC before player abilities. The Astrangant starts at +20, the difference seems covered by Fortress Z.O. Armor (+21), Artificial Aegis (+21) and Advanced AI (+7) for the extra +49 (then base 10 AC). However Fortress Z.O. Armor would not allow to add any dodge bonus, both the base Dodge bonus from the Astrangant and the one from the Advanced AI. Or is there any other bonus I'm missing that you included in your spreadsheet?

I did the heavier armors as a way for low-dex/dodge builds to work to represent bulkier reals (just like there's speedster supers). For the shields I toyed with the penalties of limiting the number of maneuvers/spells/weapons that can be used per round so you're relying more on the shield for defense. If you think the penalties aren't worth it then I can think of harsher penalties or just remove the bigger shields.