DISCUSSION: Core-only Wizard20 vs a Splatbook-Enabled Fighter20 - Lycan's Duel

[awaken_D_M_golem]

... Still, if you were the Fighter, what would you have done to help ensure victory? ...

Get a psicrystal and go Big Guy.
Psicrystal does the same (I've been known to pimp this before).
Much higher level psicrystal takes Leadership (basic shards of leadership idea)
... for a semi-TO time traveler cohort build ; say Monty or Terminator or Pun-pun lite.
Goes forward in time, to find out what Lycan's build is and what it is (was / has been) going to do.
Goes back far enough in time.
PsyRef's into yet another psicrystal Big Guy short loop.
Much higher level psicrystal takes Leadership
... for exactly Lycan's build as cohort.
Attacks Lycan's Wizard 1 level before it's total fruition !!


Result :   Lycan's Wiz 20 + [ Fighter 20 + psicrystals + TO dross ] ... versus ... Lycan's Wiz 19

The [dudes] sit on the sideline, and the Fighter gets to feel self satisfied.
 

[kitep]

my problem with it is that the F20 is clearly not a very strong optimizer (as evidenced by the challenge anyway),

I agree.  While I firmly believe W20 >> F20, I think this particular challenge merely shows who the better optimizer is.  I have a feeling if Lycan was optimizing the fighter, the fighter would win.

I do appreciate the thread though

[Lycanthromancer]

Still, if you were the Fighter, what would you have done to help ensure victory?

Not be large. Crawling through the rings would have been one hell of an "lol in your face". Hell even shooting arrows (with a glued antimagic torc) into the rings would have been far better than slamming face first into the Prismatic Wall too. >.>

Ring gates have one entrance side and one exit side, and the entrance sides on the 'outie' rings were pasted to the foreheads of some nasty dragons, and could only be removed with a specific magic item no fighter built for a duel would likely ever have. Not to mention that the 'innie' rings were encased in rock with only a foot of space between the rock and the hard place (see: iron).

Though he could've knocked the ring gates with a rod of cancellation.

Get a psicrystal and go Big Guy.

There's no way to qualify for Psicrystal Affinity with a fighter 20, so far as I know, and Leadership was explicitly disallowed.

[SorO_Lost]

Ring gates have one entrance side and one exit side, and the entrance sides on the 'outie' rings were pasted to the foreheads of some nasty dragons, and could only be removed with a specific magic item no fighter built for a duel would likely ever have. Not to mention that the 'innie' rings were encased in rock with only a foot of space between the rock and the hard place (see: iron).

Though he could've knocked the ring gates with a rod of cancellation.

Yatta yatta charge kill and/or shoot through head w/e.

But more impotently, you gave me a cool idea. How wide is this 'portal' and 'rings' (rhetorical question)? Smack the inside of the rim and your finger hits the inside of the other ring's edge moving it. Could be pretty abusable.

[Endarire]

Hidden Talent would let me get Psicrystal Affinity at base ML.

[Halinn]

Leadership was explicitly disallowed.

Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort etc.

[snakeman830]

Hidden Talent would let me get Psicrystal Affinity at base ML.

Sadly no, it wouldn't.  Hidden Talent doesn't give a manifester level at all.  It lets you manifest a 1st level power as though your manifester level was 1, but does not give you a manifester level.

You need one of the Host feats from Complete Psionic instead.

[Thurbane]

This is like watching Tiger Woods challenge Steven Hawkins to a round of golf, or Hawkins challenging Woods to a debate on theoretical physics. 

[JohnnyMayHymn]

This is like watching Tiger Woods challenge Steven Hawkins to a round of golf, or Hawkins challenging Woods to a debate on theoretical physics. 

It's like a Wizard challenging a Fighter to a 'fight' 

But, what about Kalashtar for the ML to get a smart pet rock?
.... and candle of invocation... Miracle can explicitly "win a battle" right?

EDIT: Hell, all the Fighter has to do is teleport a mile, there's no item that can do that?

[Endarire]

An item of greater teleport can cause the user to teleport anywhere on that plane.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Get a psicrystal and go Big Guy ... etc

There's no way to qualify for Psicrystal Affinity with a fighter 20, so far as I know, and Leadership was explicitly disallowed.

My tongue should have been more obviously in cheek.
F20 has no chance against W20.
For the F20 to "have" a chance, he's gotta use piles of near-TO.
Ending up with Lycan On Lycan(lite) violence,
with some chuckleheads sitting on the sidelines.
{ ... insert me included smiley face ... }

C'mon , you've gotta beat yourself every now and then.
(wait-a-minute)


Wild Talent + a [host] feat ... yep.

[Thurbane]

It's like a Wizard challenging a Fighter to a 'fight' 

..or a Fighter challenging a Wizard to a 'wizz'?   

[awaken_D_M_golem]

hmm ... Now ... 

Splat Fighter 20 with access to a Splat Magic Mart and Splat Leadership
versus
Core Wizard 20 with access to a Core Magic Mart and Core Leadership

... that would even the odds quite a bit.
Cohort Splat Wizard build 18 would be a handful.

[Lycanthromancer]

hmm ... Now ... 

Splat Fighter 20 with access to a Splat Magic Mart and Splat Leadership
versus
Core Wizard 20 with access to a Core Magic Mart and Core Leadership

... that would even the odds quite a bit.
Cohort Splat Wizard build 18 would be a handful.

At that point it's a matter of, 'who can optimize their wizard the best' and it rather loses all meaning.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Yeah , you're right 


How about ditching the magic mart?

Core Wiz 20 + Core Cohort something 17 ... probably Cleric
versus
Splat Fighter 20 + Splat Cohort 18 ... has to be single race, single class when Fighter first gets him(her,it).

[Halinn]

That is still mostly an issue of who can optimize their caster the best. Perhaps the splatbook has a significant edge if the cohort is an artificer, or if s/he is able to use the celerity round effectively enough. Nothing in the duel will be about the principle of fighter vs. wizard, though.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yeah , you're right 

Of course.

How about ditching the magic mart?

I think you mean, "How about ditching the item crafting that wizards get as a class ability?"

And no. It's perfectly valid to double (or more!) your WBL through crafting if you've got the feats and the spells and you're willing to expend the time, gp, and xp.

Now that I think about it, most of the feats I took were crafting feats, and I had a ton of rods of absorption and metamagic rods for that specific reason.

Core Wiz 20 + Core Cohort something 17 ... probably Cleric
versus
Splat Fighter 20 + Splat Cohort 18 ... has to be single race, single class when Fighter first gets him(her,it).

Still caster vs caster, and the fighter has no relevance whatsoever.

Hell, I've seen fighter 20 (w/lvl 20 WBL) vs a wizard 13 (w/lvl 13 WBL) fights, and the wizard STILL won, despite the massively "unfair advantage" the fighter should've had.

Granted, the wizards weren't Core only, but neither were the fighters.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Yeah , you're right 

Of course.

Yeah yeah , you're right 



Splat Wiz build 18 > Core Wiz only 20
So even if the Splat Fighter 20 is nothing more than
a carry along meatshield , it's still getting buffed by lots
more stuff than what the Core (Wiz 20 + Cohort 17) have.

[Halinn]

Splat Wiz build 18 > Core Wiz only 20
So even if the Splat Fighter 20 is nothing more than
a carry along meatshield , it's still getting buffed by lots
more stuff than what the Core (Wiz 20 + Cohort 17) have.

Even so, the duel would not be about the fighter, but about the power of casters. Admittedly, a fight to determine more closely how powerful splatbooks are would be interesting, but it would be an entirely different thing from highlighting the mundane-magic imbalance.
I am also not completely convinced that a splat wizard 18 can beat core wizard 20+cleric 17. I find it fairly likely to happen, but I would not be entirely surprised were he to lose that fight.

[sirpercival]

Celerity.