Author Topic: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!  (Read 269577 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #400 on: October 09, 2014, 06:00:30 AM »
Indeed, and there's even historical records of it.
The portuguese soldiers during the Discovery era had the following battle doctrine:
You mean Rodeleros? Because no, that's just inaccurate. They also didn't wear pants so what the hell do they know?
I said portuguese, not spanish. Allow me to remind you that Portugal resisted being assimilated by Spain for a millenium despite being right next door, severly outnumbered, no big geographical barriers and basically having nobody else to call for help*. :p


*Except for that one time where one of our royal lineage died out from stupidity and the spanish king took control by rules shenigans of still having family bonds. Also the english have tecnically been our allies, but they would raid our coasts as often as they showed at the last moment to claim the glory and all the loot sent "help", and even today they're holding a bunch of our treasures in their museums. :shakefist

I can't speak for Portuguese styles, but in Japanese dual-wielding the main-hand weapon and off-hand weapon are used interchangeably for parrying as well as attack.
There are contributing factors, Japan's bows sucked balls
Citation needed. Considering the design survived for centuries, even after firearms were introduced, they were clearly doing something right.

In particular because samurais first rose to the top military elite of Japan precisely because of how devastating their archery was. Screw elaborate sword duels, they just sniped the opposition from afar, usually while riding away in horses.



Dual Wielding is, and always has been, a fairly ineffective style. The transition from slaughter every Tuesday to civilian defense forces was it's peak as armor phased out. It's just fucking cool as tits on a female and usage of normally unusable things (sic bluffing in poker) is a staple of badassery and the definition of competent heroes. And where there is people determined to do something, there are special cases of effectiveness.

I'll admit that dual wielding kinda sucks when you're facing a cavarly charge, or an enemy pike formation where each enemy has nine buddies behind him trying to stab you with 10 pointy things at the same time.

However pike formation/cavarly only works in open/firm ground, and the Portuguese at that time were all about ship warfare/coastal battles/fortress defence. And dual wielding is then pretty good when horses can't join the fray and you can't make big ranked formations.

Meanwhile in the grimdarkness of the past there was only war  Europe's past there was plenty of conflict to go all around in the main continent, but the portuguese just remained out of it and focused on maritime expansion.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #401 on: October 09, 2014, 10:15:36 AM »
The point he makes about the tennis serve is no point at all; he can put that extra 'oomph' into his attack with a weapon in one's off-hand.
Not simultaneously, which he addresses single weapon attacking speed is just as equal at that point. And what he didn't discuss was how hard ambidexterity is let alone when someone is trying to hack off your head which is why dual wielding is a thing only idiots or the exceptionally talented (sic could kick your ass with a teacup) do.

A shield breaking in combat is also a stroke that would have killed you failing, and for some reason people don't like being killed. :p

Indeed, and there's even historical records of it.
The portuguese soldiers during the Discovery era had the following battle doctrine:
You mean Rodeleros? Because no, that's just inaccurate. They also didn't wear pants so what the hell do they know?

I can't speak for Portuguese styles, but in Japanese dual-wielding the main-hand weapon and off-hand weapon are used interchangeably for parrying as well as attack.
There are contributing factors, Japan's bows sucked balls and the lack of metal limited them to wood and leather armor that a strong enough blow could cut through. Which in turn lead to the creation of striking methods and swords to do just that. Which in an arms race led to said leather armor being redesigned with a heavy focus on the head and shoulders to block powerful downward strikes. However, when stabbing the weak points were thought of their stupid honor got in the way. A real man doesn't use sissy knives to groin punch or w/e. So shields never really caught on, or you know actual protective gear. Civilized people just had no use for bulky armor or heavy unsightly murder tools, I mean how many bulletproof vests do you have laying around your house? None? I guess I don't need a hunting rifle to kill you now do I?

The same thing is found in fencing too in it's own way. Full-plate consumes a lot of resources and if the intended wearer's size changes it becomes useless. Towards the 17th century it was phasing out due to people become more civilized and it's cost-to-usefulness plummeted. Without the arms race a one lighter blades trended in, hand and a halfs to rapiers. They continued to become lighter and more skill based from rapiers to shortswords to the foil and epee. All of which were never designed to see a use outside of light civilian defense or sport. Sort of like a 9mm handgun vs why don't everyone own a 10 gauge full bore. Anyway, some depictions in movies suggest that during the longsword/foil era offhand daggers were used TWF super style. But in truth they were designed to parry, they were used offensively as often as you would throw a punch or kick. And the usage of them was killed off in favor of balance & speed by using a single blade against unarmored targets and devoting the rest of your body to mobility.

Dual Wielding is, and always has been, a fairly ineffective style. The transition from slaughter every Tuesday to civilian defense forces was it's peak as armor phased out. It's just fucking cool as tits on a female and usage of normally unusable things (sic bluffing in poker) is a staple of badassery and the definition of competent heroes. And where there is people determined to do something, there are special cases of effectiveness.

He also points out (erroneously) that one cannot strike simultaneously in an effective way. Which is wrong. You can, just as you can use consecutive strikes to throw your opponent's defense off, but it takes an actual bit of technique to pull off in a correct manner. There's also no need to put extra strength behind a strike - you'd only get tired faster, and melee weapons as a whole tend to be balanced so you don't have to. You don't need to pull a Hulk just to break through armor and smash some bones in, you're swinging a goddamn piece of metal. Its weight will do that FOR you.

The point about ambidexterity is also at least partly false. People think of ambidexterity with swords as something special and awesome that only a few can attain. I used to train with people using actual two-weapon techniques, and they usually got the hang of it with a month's worth of training. Hell, I was never taught formally and I do okay with two blades - and due to my skipping training fairly often I was NOT the best guy in my class. You don't have to write with both hands simultaneously to pull off TWF effectively, you just need decent depth perception, rhythm and a certain degree of study, which you'd need to use a sword effectively anyway.

Osle covered my point about bows. In addition, Japan's mountain-like terrain gave clear advantages to whomever held the high ground. Battles in plains were rare, and often went well for whomever had the best cavalry (at least until Nobunaga Oda came along and basically invented the concept of the machinegun with his rows of muskets, and even so the tactic saw relatively little use because he could not position them in a nice defensive line every time like he did in Nagashino).

Your point about not stabbing due to honor is also not a point. There were no "honor guidelines" for avoiding shots to the groin or even the legs. There were in fact entire STYLES built around rising strikes to the thighs and the underside of the arms, as it provided an effective blind spot - most rising attacks were performed with the sword "hidden" behind the user's body, making depth perception the point that determined victory. Japanese armor was built for mobility and protection from ranged weapons, not melee. Shields never really caught on for them because in order for an arrow to kill them it'd have to be aimed at his face or through one of its joints - hence the image of a soldier wandering around with a dozen arrows sticking out of his back that some Japanese movies have.

As a battlefield style, dual-wielding was born out of necessity, and once refined, it proved quite effective, at least in Japan. As a dueling style, it may  just be the one style that could match proper spearsmanship. It doesn't do so well against sword and board, yes, but that doesn't make it ineffective, just as sword and board has its own failings.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #402 on: October 09, 2014, 11:27:43 AM »
Some how while trying to track down you're claim Ols I ended up on that page. Since I pulled the battles on wikipedia I probably ended up there by the victors. You know, the none-TWF army without pants that kicked their TWF asses. :p

If you have a citation laying around I'd like to read it. I've never heard of something like that which makes it unique. And on the bows, horseback archery was favored, not necessarily archery. They replaced foot based archery as early as the 4th century then peaked and died out 500 years before the Edo period, probably because horses are expensive. Well that and as I said before, their bows sucked balls.

The bow that seen wide spread use, probably due to mounted archery, was the yumi. It's f'ing huge, made out of bamboo and even with proper care and maintenance it'd only last a few generations. In addition, they only had a draw weight around 30~40lbs. To put things into prospective, modern hunters use the low draw weight of 90lbs+ to kill deer with razor sharp machined steel heads instead of rocks and dull pointy heads and 20~30lb bows are what Cub Scouts use at Scout camps because with a dull tip you can't kill anyone. To really paint a difference, Longbows have a draw weight up to 185lbs and so many survived the middle ages (sic over 800 years ago) in working order without care or maintenance that people purposely broke a bunch of them to test their limits for science. To even more put things in place, it is possible to dodge, parry, or block a single arrow pretty easily with such a low speed if you know it's coming. To fire hundreds of arrows you need terrain that supports hundreds of archers, not a mountain.

@Kuori, no hes right on the strikes.
You've used weapons before, you know there are only 9 possible strikes. Picture a 3x3 grid and every technique in the world swings a cutting edge through one of the eight. Defensively, you can easily cover two to three squares at once. IE upper left, top, and upper right can be blocked or parried by choosing to guard upwards. TWF and swinging both from the near-same angle of attack (say upper left and top) could be easily blocked in a single motion. TWF in opposing angles to "get around your opponent's defense" carries the problem that if your opponent dodges either you've trapped your arms, cut them, of slammed your weapons together. This goes back to parry daggers really. The center square is neutral and left open, a small piercing weapon used to stab does work. And it was used, but you need to understand that it's a dagger and a sword, not two swords. And it wasn't used for very long, weapons became lighter and faster, daggers could no longer reach your opponent and a foil could dance around them, plus blocking a stab with another bladed weapon is all but impossible.

Looking back, you also missed the point on armor. Japanese armor left areas completely uncovered. The closest thing to a gorget to keep their heads from being was a face mask. The sides of their abdomens were uncovered, arms only had armor on one side etc. Full plate covered everything, even the joints had mail, leather, and cloth. In Japanese, ninjitsu exploited the large gaps in a Samurai's armor and the Samurai saw is as dishonorable and never thought to fully armor them selves. Unlike Europe, where yes, everything was fair game like it is in war.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 11:40:46 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #403 on: October 09, 2014, 02:53:55 PM »
Incorrect again. There are nine possible ANGLES of attack, at three different lengths and heights, with a minimum of two possible attack methods, considering a sword. That gives you a bare minimum of 54 potential strikes, with some being much more effective than others depending on your position, and that's only considering frontal assault - outmaneuvering your opponent gives you even more options. Out of those 54, there's a minimum of 17 combinations that result in what you describe, leaving roughly 37 possibilities that don't bone you.

You're also wrong on which "squares" are easier to defend. You want the top left and right, as well as middle one left and right. Defending from assault coming from the top actually requires you to lower your guard elsewhere, as does defending a low strike, which is something dual-wielding consistently exploits - this is what I was talking about when I spoke of using one weapon to draw the opponent's defense away. In addition, if you're fighting an opponent with a single weapon, you can use one of yours to halt his movement with that one hand and prevent him from defending elsewhere - hell, you can cut his arm off if you want to. Basic TWF techniques are more about consecutive combinations than simultaneous strikes.

A foil has no business going against armor, and against a heavier weapon it runs the risk of breaking with a sufficiently powerful strike. Or just being caught in a hooked dagger with a flick of the wrist.

Now if you're going to bring ninjas into this then I have no way of continuing this discussion without the addition of swordchucks.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #404 on: October 09, 2014, 03:34:48 PM »
*sighs* I never said a foil was meant for armor. I don't think you're picking up what I'm laying down.

And if you bring swordchucks into this I'm retraining to be a ranger/ranger so I can dual wield my dual wield.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #405 on: October 09, 2014, 04:32:50 PM »
You people.

Clearly, spears are the superior weapon, in terms of both production and ease of training.

And reach.

And general utility.

(I never really got sword-fetishism; spears 4 life!)
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #406 on: October 09, 2014, 05:13:48 PM »
I've always favored the antimatter rifles.
Wait, those don't exist yet.  :(

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #407 on: October 09, 2014, 05:28:19 PM »
I've always favored the antimatter rifles.
Wait, those don't exist yet.  :(
According to whom?
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Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #408 on: October 09, 2014, 07:02:12 PM »
You people.

Clearly, spears are the superior weapon, in terms of both production and ease of training.

And reach.

And general utility.

(I never really got sword-fetishism; spears 4 life!)

I must admit I like spears more than swords, but battoujutsu is totally badass. And so is TWF.
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Offline brujon

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #409 on: October 10, 2014, 02:56:20 PM »
High Quality CG recreation of video game scenarios:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u-6B_iF5s0
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline Kethrian

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What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline Quillwraith

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #411 on: October 15, 2014, 11:49:29 AM »
Quote from: brujon link=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8233.msg168435#msg168435
Quote from: JohnnyMayHymn link=http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8233.msg166957#msg166957
Old King Cole is going to be the BBEG in my next campaign!

I'm thinking thrallherd or wizard idk…
Thank you for sharing. This band is AWESOME. Holy crap, they're good. Damn good BBEG, too.
It’s been awhile, but: I agree completely with brujon; they are awesome.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #412 on: October 15, 2014, 02:36:23 PM »
Anything for searching through a database of journal articles and academic publications is an amazing tool.

Especially given that the library here's organisational abilities seem to be non-existent.

Offline Amechra

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"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #414 on: October 15, 2014, 03:34:27 PM »
For no apparent reason, many shelves dealing with the same loan type and topic are on multiple floors. I don't even know how they've arranged them, either.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #415 on: October 15, 2014, 03:46:34 PM »
Does your library have a waterfall you can meditate under? I find those help me understand stupid decisions.

I also just realized that I pronounce library 'lie - bree', and that I pronounce probably 'problee'. Huh.
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Offline Gazzien

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #416 on: October 15, 2014, 04:42:04 PM »
By my guess, I'm about halfway through compiling the Fun Finds v3 thread for my first handbook project.

I mean... not much, but jeez. These threads are a lot more dense than they appear. I understand why this happened in v4:
Quote
Maybe I'll do it [Compile Fun Finds].
EDIT: DOIN IT.
EDIT2: NEVERMIND, NO WAY.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #417 on: October 15, 2014, 07:52:03 PM »
So we were playing Betrayal at the House On the Hill...

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:09:31 PM by Kuroimaken »
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Offline bhu

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #418 on: October 16, 2014, 12:52:11 AM »
OMG I love that game.  We've never played it the same way twice

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Awesome Stuff You Have To Share, Part 3: You Can't Handle The Awesome!
« Reply #419 on: October 16, 2014, 07:35:22 AM »
(click to show/hide)
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