Fun Finds v6.0

[phaedrusxy]

Dragon Magazine 315 brings us Spireshard weapons. a +3 enhancement that forces a respectable DC 19 Will save on every hit or completely disable all casting and SLAs for up to 4 rounds. Put it on a character with a lot of swings and wreck some mages.

Or take that feat that bases the save DCs of an item on your stats, rather than the fixed item DC...

[Nytemare3701]

Dragon Magazine 315 brings us Spireshard weapons. a +3 enhancement that forces a respectable DC 19 Will save on every hit or completely disable all casting and SLAs for up to 4 rounds. Put it on a character with a lot of swings and wreck some mages.

Or take that feat that bases the save DCs of an item on your stats, rather than the fixed item DC...

As far as I know, that one only works on things that cast spells.

[kitep]

I just reread it, and it looks like it can work with any magic item

Enhance Item

Choose any item creation feat you already know. When you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier.

I also had thought it was spell based, like when you used a wand, it would use the user's stat.  But it looks like the save is based on the creator's stat, presumably whatever it was at the time of creation.

[SorO_Lost]

Yeep, works with Paralyzing too.

[Nytemare3701]

How would you calculate the save from an item? There's no spell level for the save DC.

[Lokiyn]

here's how
I gotta say, I haven't bothered to think about some of this stuff in years

[SorO_Lost]

here's how
I gotta say, I haven't bothered to think about some of this stuff in years

Yeep, that's the default rule.

If the DC doesn't match the list CL, which happens more than you'd think, double check the actual Spell required to craft it.

DC 10: 0th level, ability score 10 (+0).
DC 11: 1st level, ability score 11 (+0).
DC 12: invalid.
DC 13: 2nd level, ability score 12 (+1).
DC 14: 3rd level, ability score 13 (+1).
DC 15: invalid.
DC 16: 4th level, ability score 14 (+2).
DC 17: 5th level, ability score 15 (+2).
DC 18: invalid.
DC 19: 6th level, ability score 16 (+3).
DC 20: 7th level, ability score 17 (+3).
DC 21: invalid.
DC 22: 8th level, ability score 18 (+4).
DC 23: 9th level, ability score 19 (+4).

And if nothing lines up, I'd just go with figuring the author just either assigned made up a number because it doesn't quite match the Spell/CL used. Just reverse engineer it and treat the oddity's value as an additional modifier.

Like Soulbreaker's DC 18 using a CL17 Energy Drain, the DC should be 23 but it's dropped by five points. This is probably to account for Soul Breaker bestowing a single Negative Level on a Critical Hit instead of 2d4 like the Spell would actually do, so it's DC is 10 + Spell Level (9) + Ability Modifier (+4) + -5 (tweak), or Enhance Item at 34 Intelligence should produce DC 26. Through you are kind of in a gray area, the tweak is just following the printed rules the best it can but when you get down to it, item deconstruction can be just as abusive as following the item creation rules at times.

[linklord231]

Your chart is off at the low end.

A first level spell with a casting stat of 11 (+0 mod) would be DC 11, not 12. 
A 2nd level spell with a casting stat of 12 (+1 mod) would be DC 13, not 14.
A 3rd level spell with a casting stat of 13 (+1 mod) would be DC 14, not 15.

After that, it's back on track. 

[Lokiyn]

.... hold on a tick

hmmmmm
Couldn't you combine this with awaken, or shadowcraft tricks, to deliberately lower the DC of certain items? For example if you use the cooperative creation rules from the dmg

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary, such as if one character knows some of the spells necessary to create an item and another character knows the rest.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. (It’s generally sensible, although not mandatory, for the highest-level character involved to be considered the creator.) The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

and feeblemind your familiar couldn't you change the formula to the following

SL	CL	IM	DC
0.5	1	-5	5
1	1	-5	6
2	3	-5	7
3	5	-5	8
4	7	-5	9
5	9	-5	10
6	11	-5	11
7	13	-5	12
8	15	-5	13
9	17	-5	14

Making Awaken much easier to cast from a scroll and it easier to disbelieve shadow conjurations from scrolls.

[SorO_Lost]

Couldn't you combine this with awaken, or shadowcraft tricks, to deliberately lower the DC of certain items?

Not really.

First Spells have a minimum CL.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

And if those conditions cannot be met.

If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

Secondary, the CL entry isn't a suggestion that you can passively ignore. It's a requirement.

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

And here is the MiC's updated text on the subject of multiple crafters.

All items have prerequisites in their descriptions.These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time they take the form of feats and spells that the item's creator must know, although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed. It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites. (In all places where this text refers to the "creator" of a magic item, it includes all characters supplying at least one prerequisite [or the item's creation.) The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.

You're still technically allowed to the CL of anyone in the party, but the wording more strongly reflects meeting the requirements opposed to the pick and choose method the first iteration might seem to suggest to you. So calling back to the other rules, the minimum CL must be met by your choice or you can't make the item.

And @Link, fixed it.

[Amechra]

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Is there anywhere that they explicitly say the minimum, like with maneuvers?

[Lokiyn]

(click to show/hide)

Couldn't you combine this with awaken, or shadowcraft tricks, to deliberately lower the DC of certain items?

Not really.

First Spells have a minimum CL.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

And if those conditions cannot be met.

If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

Secondary, the CL entry isn't a suggestion that you can passively ignore. It's a requirement.

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

And here is the MiC's updated text on the subject of multiple crafters.

All items have prerequisites in their descriptions.These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time they take the form of feats and spells that the item's creator must know, although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed. It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites. (In all places where this text refers to the "creator" of a magic item, it includes all characters supplying at least one prerequisite [or the item's creation.) The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.

You're still technically allowed to the CL of anyone in the party, but the wording more strongly reflects meeting the requirements opposed to the pick and choose method the first iteration might seem to suggest to you. So calling back to the other rules, the minimum CL must be met by your choice or you can't make the item.

And @Link, fixed it.

That's nice and all, but really has nothing in any way shape or form to do with the post as "Caster Level" and "Item Saving Throw Difficulty Check" are two entirely different things.

So to reiterate in a simpler form

For those features in 3.5 where the player wants a lower difficulty check for the recipients of spell effects via item, such as a shadowcraft gnome, could you not use Enhance item, combined with a sufficiently gimped partner, to forceably lower the Difficulty check of the item; As shown below in Table Format

Table 1: Normal Item Saving Throw Difficulty Class based on Spell Level

Spell Level	Caster Level	Minimum Intelligence Modifier	___	Item Saving Throw Difficulty Check (or DC)
0.5	1	0		10
1	1	0		11
2	3	1		13
3	5	1		14
4	7	2		16
5	9	2		17
6	11	3		19
7	13	3		20
8	15	4		22
9	17	4		23

Table 2: "Enhanced" Item Saving Throw Difficulty Check via Feeble minded cooperative crafter.

Spell Level	Caster Level	Minimum Intelligence Modifier	___	Item Saving Throw Difficulty Check (or DC)
0.5	1	-5		5
1	1	-5		6
2	3	-5		7
3	5	-5		8
4	7	-5		9
5	9	-5		10
6	11	-5		11
7	13	-5		12
8	15	-5		13
9	17	-5		14

[altpersona]

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Is there anywhere that they explicitly say the minimum, like with maneuvers?

im thinking of two prestige classes with 9th level casting that have really low CL's.

[linklord231]

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Is there anywhere that they explicitly say the minimum, like with maneuvers?

Short answer, no.  The full text is:

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

So basically it boils down to "the lowest caster level you can use to cast the spell is the lowest caster level you can cast the spell at," which is a tautology. 

[altpersona]

and now im curious about things that penalize your caster level. like +x to one thing and -x to all others.

seems like that could get weird.

[SorO_Lost]

Is there anywhere that they explicitly say the minimum, like with maneuvers?

Yes, it's based on the Spell in question which is not a tautology as Link mistakenly thinks it is.

Unlike Maneuvers, a Spell's Level is highly variable. So if the Spell in question were say a Wizard's Animate Dead. The Wizardy powers needed are seven because to a Wizard only having a caster level of six is not high enough to cast 4th level Spells. But if there Spell in question were a Cleric's Animate Dead you only need a caster level of five because to a Cleric it's a 3rd level Spell which only requires a caster level of five. And there is no mix-and-match unless you use a Known expanding trick, Animate Dead does not require a Cleric to have a caster level of seven because it appears on the Wizard List any more than a Wizard can claim he only needs a caster level of five because it appears on the Cleric List.

So the minimal CL of a Spell is, as the entry states in plain text, based on the Spell in question. There is no stated requirement of forced Spell List association order for creation so it's possible through alternative Lists to produce lower-than-average items, such as a CL1 Wand of Haste by having a Trap Smith cast your Spell. But for the discussion at hand, Magical Item DCs, it's best to handle the deconstruction using SLA's order of assumption. And that is calculate the Spell DC as if a Wizard had craft it, or if his default list is unable to assume a Cleric did, then Druid and so on.

and now im curious about things that penalize your caster level. like +x to one thing and -x to all others.

seems like that could get weird.

Try Energy Drain some time, for the purposes of die rolls and calculations you have a -1 penalty to your effective level. Some people treat your CL to be a formula, meaning if you were 18th level and hit by two negs you can no longer produce 9th level Spells.

But the FAQ says that's wrong. In one entry it confirms you don't automatically lose access to a Spell Level via Negative Levels and while it doesn't explain why, it's entry on Bloodlines confirms what the encoded thought (aka the word 'calculation') actually means. Energy Drain has an effect on Caster Level Checks since they are roll, but not on checksums. Like if you wanted to ignore the FAQ and claim otherwise well you can just as easily claim HD is also such a calculation. You "calculate" HD by adding up the number of Class Levels and application of various Abilities such as Inspire Heroics, so a 10 HD creature with five Negative Levels totally has 5 HD right? Well that'd mean he has as many Negative Levels as he has Hit Dice, he died!

So if you ruled otherwise, that CL is a "calculation", the same concept when carried through would affect all kinds of various things unless you started tacking on dozens of additional exception rulings to it. Which as I'm sure you can guess, can lead to a massive debate full of screaming on both sides on how to handle everything.

[altpersona]

that was a bit chaotic, but it looks like one interpretation works 

[linklord231]

Is there anywhere that they explicitly say the minimum, like with maneuvers?

Yes, it's based on the Spell in question which is not a tautology as Link mistakenly thinks it is.

Unlike Maneuvers, a Spell's Level is highly variable. So if the Spell in question were say a Wizard's Animate Dead. The Wizardy powers needed are seven because to a Wizard only having a caster level of six is not high enough to cast 4th level Spells. But if there Spell in question were a Cleric's Animate Dead you only need a caster level of five because to a Cleric it's a 3rd level Spell which only requires a caster level of five. And there is no mix-and-match unless you use a Known expanding trick, Animate Dead does not require a Cleric to have a caster level of seven because it appears on the Wizard List any more than a Wizard can claim he only needs a caster level of five because it appears on the Cleric List.

So the minimal CL of a Spell is, as the entry states in plain text, based on the Spell in question. There is no stated requirement of forced Spell List association order for creation so it's possible through alternative Lists to produce lower-than-average items, such as a CL1 Wand of Haste by having a Trap Smith cast your Spell. But for the discussion at hand, Magical Item DCs, it's best to handle the deconstruction using SLA's order of assumption. And that is calculate the Spell DC as if a Wizard had craft it, or if his default list is unable to assume a Cleric did, then Druid and so on.

None of this contradicts or is contradicted by what I said.  You're extrapolating out from the example, which is reasonable, but the answer to Amechra's question is still "no, it's not explicitly stated." 

[Keldar]

The ability scores for DC are already at the minimum for magic items.  You cannot make them any lower without building from a spell list that has the spell at lower slot level.  The caster level for scrolls are already at the minimum, same basic deal.  You want either lower, you have to poach from a Trapsmith or something that gets haste or whatever at CL1, SL1 and change a root math function.  The minimums are established in the bloody PHB and applied to items in the DMG.  You can otherwise no more make a scroll with Haste at CL0 or  Int 4 than a Fighter could cast the same.  They're some of the first sodding rules applied to spellcasting in the entire game.  Chapters slagin' 1 and 10.  Really basic stuff.

[Lokiyn]

none of which explains where the hell caster level came into a discussion of difficulty check.
@ Keldar, you really haven't read the posts above have you? Much like SorO, you're operating at a misconception at the fundamental level of the conversation.
There is a specific Feat Enhance Item that allows you to use your casting stat modifier, rather than the default formula for magic item creation.

The point of the whole conversation was to point out that you can use this to boost the static dc's of some weapon traits, as well as lower the DC for certain items, if you had a situation where you want it to be easier to resist an effect.

For example, I as a shadowcraft gnome build, want to make my shadow effects as low dc as possible, so normally if i wanted to make a scroll of shadow evocation the DC would be

10+2+5 = 17

Too high

So i use my enhance item feat and cooperative crafting to modify the int modifier from +2 to -5 using feeble mind or some other trick

10+(-5)+5 = 10

Better, however i want it still lower so i use a sanctum spell version of the spell instead of the normal effect

10+(-5)+4 = 9

lowering the Items difficulty check by 9 points and the caster level to 7 rather than 9


as you said "Really basic stuff."


anyway,

If you want to lower the caster level, one of the better ways is to use the sanctum spell metamagic feat, which lowers the spell level for the effect (although it doesn't change the slots you need to use). Which would allow you the ability to craft say a 4th level spell into a potion (as it is now considered 3rd level spell) which lowers the minimum caster level from 7 to 5 allowing you some decent savings.

none of which explains where the hell caster level came into a discussion of difficulty check.