Fixing AC costs

[veekie]

Well naturally, when the bulk of the AC bonuses bounce off on those, of the ones a non-optimizer would know to get, only Deflection and Dex would be applicable(further types usually take custom items, but I suppose if you're already running persisted spells as a defense standard, large arrays of alternate AC types are hardly even breaking the surface), what with losing Armor, Shield and Natural all at once. Thats what my Class Defense Bonus houserule there aims to address in part, making touch a little closer to regular AC. Whether its enough...its hard to tell because its trivially easy for an indiscriminate rule to push encountered AC straight off the RNG for unoptimized to-hit(which would screw secondary melee types who encounter NPCs). Mostly with full plate and a board granted.

[Mooncrow]

If you're really looking at overhauling AC, one of the first steps really has to be making the non-standard bonus types available to non-casters.

[Lycanthromancer]

If you're really looking at overhauling AC, one of the first steps really has to be making the non-standard bonus types available to non-casters.

Available and efficient. As it stands it's all WAAAAAY too expensive, if you can even get it at all.

[veekie]

^^
Yeah but you need to keep less optimized PCs in mind as well.
Its a linear scale that you can fall off(which I guess is a backhanded benefit to d10 systems being so horribly swingy, since you can swing back on for a larger margin)

So looking at the baseline factors going in to actually change the game, you need to calculate peak and typical classed attack bonus for each type of character, against peak and typical classed AC bonus for each type of AC.
The BAB 3/4 rogue still needs to be able to hit against full AC(TWF penalties negated by flanking). The hit % may be more unfavorable than the full BAB fighter, but it needs to remain an attainable value for any sweeping changes to the AC system. Making AC more optimizeable helps, as PCs can achieve the necessary anti-monster AC, without making level appropriate NPCs completely unable to be hit.

[JaronK]

Outsiders and Constructs aren't melee?  Dear lord.

Anyway, I think one thing worth doing is to see how many cheap sources of AC we can find, as this will better let us figure out exactly when the problem really starts (i.e. at what point does it become too costly to keep AC doing better than things like 20% miss chances).

Obviously it's different for various classes.  So... how many sources of AC keep at or below the 2k per AC point limit?  Higher than that and I think the cost is just too much (a lot of options do open up at 4k, but that seems too high to me).  So... some options:

1)  Mithral Mechanicus Gear: +10 AC, but only 2 Dex allowed, and takes armor slot.  10750gp, but mundane so anyone can craft it at 1/3 cost.
2)  +1 enhancement bonus to armor or shield.  1kgp, up to 2 per character (but the second requires using a shield).  If you can craft it yourself (certain items allow this, as does the Craft Magic Arms and Armor Feat) then you can get a +2 Enhancement bonus for 2kgp.  Technically, a +2 Enhancement bonus is 4kgp without crafting which would count, but that second point cost 3kgp.
3)  Heavy Shield.  7gp, +2 AC, requires a hand to stay cheap (Animated means it costs more).
4)  Mithral Chain Shirt + Dastana + Chahar-aina.  +6 AC for about 1200gp (but takes up armor and bracer slots).  +6 max dex bonus.  Mundane, so could be crafted at 1/3 cost.
5)  Amulet of Natural Armor +1.  2kgp.
6)  Ring of Protection +1.  2kgp.
7)  Monk's Belt.  13kgp, only worth it if your Wisdom is high enough and you're not wearing armor (most commonly applies to Druids).
8)  Gloves of Dexterity +2.  +1 AC for 4kgp, but worthwhile since it provides more than just AC (on many characters, it's also used for skills, to hit, etc).
9)  Armor created by the feat from Dragon Magazine that, among other things, allows for +1 AC to any armor you create.  Very useful for feat shifters (like Chameleons) or if retraining is available, and matters most with the Chain Shirt + Dastana + Chahar-Aina combo.
10)  Hellforged Armor.  1kgp.  If available (requires armor crafted by denizens of hell), this is really useful on Dastanas and the Chahar-Aina, where it gives +1 AC when an ally is adjacent.  But most players can't craft this themselves, since it requires being a devil.


And then there's the racial stuff... high starting dexterity + racial bonuses to dexterity can help, as can wisdom for Monks, Swordsages, and similar.  Other stats can also be applied to AC for significant benefits (There's a Paladin 2 substitution that does this for example, but you have to give up Cha to saves which might not be worth it).  Size bonus to AC for being small is common enough, as is built in natural armor.  But I think a heavy armored type should be able to have a decent AC throughout the levels, so we should make that easily possible without going overboard.

And I don't think we need to worry about hitting NPCs with class levels.  Remember that they're already quite weak due to decreased WBL, compared to the PCs.

JaronK

[veekie]

Yeah but if you make houserules to fix AC weakness(most of these would be across the board or class based), the most likely result is increased NPC AC, which does need to be considered.

[JaronK]

That's the one nice thing about increased AC items being cheaper or more accessable... NPCs have reduced WBL and thus can't use them as much as the players can.

JaronK

[Mooncrow]

Yeah but if you make houserules to fix AC weakness(most of these would be across the board or class based), the most likely result is increased NPC AC, which does need to be considered.

 I've found it pretty effective to mostly fix it through item fixes, with a few class additions.  It's still fairly complicated, but that's going to be a given. 

[X-Codes]

Hmm... so Mithral, Hellforged Chain Shirt + Hellforged Buckler + Hellforged Dastana + Hellforged Chahar-Aina can potentially give a +15 total bonus to AC?

[Lycanthromancer]

At later levels, use a pearl of power to have the party cleric cast Magic Vestment on your armor, shield, and dastana.

Have a few +1 defending weapons and a tooth of Leraje (along with access to a spellthief)?

The first is something that you can expect to encounter regularly. The second? Not so much. Still cheap though.

[edit] Also, any psion with access to 25 gp power stones of Inertial Armor. At level 20 they can blow 20 power points (or more, with ML boosters) to have a nice fat force-based AC bonus.

[X-Codes]

At later levels, use a pearl of power to have the party cleric cast Magic Vestment on your armor, shield, and dastana.

Have a few +1 defending weapons and a tooth of Leraje (along with access to a spellthief)?

The first is something that you can expect to encounter regularly. The second? Not so much. Still cheap though.

[edit] Also, any psion with access to 25 gp power stones of Inertial Armor. At level 20 they can blow 20 power points (or more, with ML boosters) to have a nice fat force-based AC bonus.

I'm not a member of the "stacking defending weapons" club.  It's extremely rules-questionable whether or not it works, and simply removes all difficulty from AC optimization if it does.

You know, the more I look at this, the less I think that Hellforged works on Dastana/Chahar-Aina.  You can still get a stacking +2 bonus to AC with them through the Dragon Magazine feat, but yeah...

I'd use a Githcraft Mithral Breastplate, and Githcraft Buckler, Dastana, and Chahar Aina, all from one Gith that has the aforementioned feat increasing the AC bonus of armor.  That nets me...

+10 Armor bonus to AC
+2 Shield bonus to AC
+5 Max Dex bonus
10% ASF (take a Spellsword dip).

[JaronK]

Hmm... so Mithral, Hellforged Chain Shirt + Hellforged Buckler + Hellforged Dastana + Hellforged Chahar-Aina can potentially give a +15 total bonus to AC?

Hellforged doesn't work on shields, and Hellforged lowers max dex bonus.  As such, it's really only good on Chahar-ainas and Dastanas, which have no max dex listed (Hellforged explicitly doesn't do anything to that), but still get the bonus.

Using the Master's Forge feat and Hellforged, you could get the following:

Mithral Chain Shirt (Reinforced and Segmented) + Hellforged Mithral Chahar-aina (Reinforced) + Hellforged Dastanas (Reinforced) + Buckler (The Master's Forge thing doesn't work with shields, only armor) .  +10 AC, +12 AC with an adjacent ally, counts as light armor, max dex is +7.  Note you'd have to count as a Devil to do this (which has its own advantages, and Savage Species could help with this via the rituals).

Note that the Reinforced quality costs 800gp for Light armor (1kgp for medium, 1200gp for heavy) and increases the weight by 10% (minimum 2 pounds).  Segmented increases the max dex by 1 for 200gp on light and medium armor (300 on heavy).  Another option is Vital Coverage, which costs 200gp for light armor (400 for medium, 1k for heavy) and gives +2 AC against critical hit confirmation.

So, a Mithral Chain Shirt that's Reinforced, Segmented, and with Vital Coverage would be pretty tough to make (DC 42 to make the masterwork component), could be made at level 10 (you could make it at level 5 without Vital Coverage at DC 35), and would cost 2300gp (1/3 that to craft it yourself).   It would give +5 AC, +7 max Dex, and an additional +2 AC against critical hit confirmations.  Another option out there is Caster Armor, which lowers spell failure by 5% for 400gp, and can be combined with Thistledown Padding and Feycraft or Githcraft to remove all arcane spell failure.

A Reinforced Mithral Hellforged Chahar-Aina with Vital Coverage is about 3kgp and provides +2 AC, with an additional +1 AC when an ally is adjacent and +2 more vs critical hits, and has no penalties.  Note Mithral is only needed if you want this to count as light armor, but it being light does make Reinforcement and Vital Coverage cheaper.

Dastanas with the same mods provide the same benefit, except there's no need to make them mithral so they're about 1k cheaper.  Note that you can't stack the enhancement bonus of the Dastana or Chahar-aina with the armor's enhancement bonus.

If you crafted all this yourself (man, the Fabricate spell is SO USEFUL), then threw in a +2 Heavy Shield and had the shirt enchanted as a +2, you'd be spending about 11kgp for +14AC (additional +6 vs critical hits, additional +2 with allies adjacent).  Really good for a Factotum or similar... a dex 24 Whispergnome with this stuff would have an AC of 32 this way without even dealing with other AC raising stuff (34 if he can stay near an ally).  Slap on an Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Protection, and he can run around with an AC of 34 (36 near allies).  That's enough to matter, and we really haven't spent very much at all on AC (we're using a shield, though).  Total cost is 15kgp.  Gotta figure out how to temporarily count as a devil though.  Note that this gets MUCH cheaper if a caster in the group has Reach Spell and Chain Spell to cast Magic Vestment... a Pearl of Power is only worth it when the caster can get to CL 16 or so (+4 bonus for 9kgp... still not great).

Anyway, I think AC 34 (+2 with Adjacent Allies, +6 vs Critical Confirms) is quite handy at level 10.  And at 15kgp, it's not a bank breaker.  It's certainly better than a Minor Cloak of Displacement for most of the attacks you'd be getting hit by.  Plus, this is just the light armor version.  And obviously throwing spikes on the shield (+1 Defending) along with a Tooth or Leraje or just a nice Chained Greater Magic Weapon from a friendly caster can jump that value up nicely.

JaronK

[Halinn]

Don't forget the +5 defending shuriken (might as well buy them like that. It's not like it's expensive)

[JaronK]

That does take up a hand though... and I was trying to avoid doing anything cheesy.  I mean, sure, we could get a bunch of Morphing +5 Defending Shurikens, morph them into the various hidden blades from Complete Scoundrel (or was it Dungeonscape?) and then get an AC in the 60s... but that's a bit much.

JaronK

[Halinn]

I do seem to notice that most of the AC items you used can be done to get 0% ASF, which actually makes a caster as reliable a tank as a fighter, barring a few hit points.

[JaronK]

Be a Necropolitan (get converted in a Desecrated area with an Evil Altar, by a Dread Necromancer or UA variant Wizard Necromancer).  D12+6HP/HD, and you can drop con as a stat.  Now your hitpoints are about as good, plus you don't care about fort saves (for the most part).

There's a reasons gishes can be very powerful.  There's really very little they can't do that a non caster melee can.

And yeah, it's a serious issue that Light Armor is just as good as (if not better than) heavy armor.  Any AC fix should change this fact (by making Heavy Armor better).

JaronK

[shriekingdrake]

So if you're fixing this, you need to target the misc AC bonuses. My personal favorite is to just junk the whole lot of AC bonus types and grant a class AC bonus from BAB.

In one campaign we do something quite similar to this.  You get your BAB in "Experience Armor Class" and there are several feats available to different classes that can add to this EAC.  In this world, you get half your EAC when immobilized or unconscious--you've just been hardened with time.  But, Monsters also get additional bonuses--this has been the hard part to balance.   

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

That works. i don't really like how it makes creature HD comparatively less useful, but it works.

How would you reconcile a player with a succubus character? They would be in an 12th level party with no AC bonus besides natural armor.

Monsters as characters would need a redo of the LA, CR, and ECL mechanics to actually be viable in the majority of cases.

FTFY

I've already done this.